Lambano
Well-Known Member
If we practice sin enough, will we eventually get it right?
1 John 3:9 - Is it cannot "practice" sin, or cannot "commit" sin?
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A lot of it has to simply do with perspective.
Perspective be it in half or whole is a perspective, and people make their choice.
Sin is something commonly talked about among most Christian groups, and talked on in Churches.
However the question then begins to be "where should our focus be"? Shouldn't it be on the King, and the Kingdom which is heavenly? Or should we focus on sin?
The more a person focuses on sin, is not dying to it.
Romans 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
@1stCenturyLady
The scripture you shared from hebrews was an unknown writer who wrote to an Jewish Audience.
When it comes to crucifying Christ over and over - is referring to those who go back to the Law, Paul also warned the Galatians about this same problem.
The scripture you shared from hebrews was an unknown writer who wrote to an Jewish Audience.
When it comes to crucifying Christ over and over - is referring to those who go back to the Law, Paul also warned the Galatians about this same problem.
Your posts are showing growth. I'm in full agreement with you. We have many exhortations to put away sin, but we have clear instructions to focus on righteousness rather than sin.
I noticed quite some time ago, that while reading through scripture regularly from Genesis to Revelation, that my thinking became more judgmental while reading the law and the prophets. If you value scripture, then you store it up in your heart, but the law condemns. Grace is present always in scripture, but not understood except through the Spirit of Christ. David wrote some passages on God's grace, such as blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin (or unrighteousness. ) David was anointed with the Spirit of Christ as were all upon whom His Spirit rested, but the permanent indwelling couldn't occur until the redemption was paid in Christ's blood.
I've learned to balance my read throughs with the gospels.
Jesus taught grace through the law to people under law. Where my flesh reads the law and wants to condemn me and everyone else, His Spirit, seen in His testimony, rebukes my tendency toward legalism and condemnation, and reminds me that God confined all under sin that He might show mercy to all, including me. I have no hope of forgiveness without God's mercy and no hope of His presence without His grace. The work of salvation is God's alone and accomplished in Christ.
Our Focus is how we store up treasure and the condition of our eyes, good or evil, determines what treasure we store up. What comes out of us remains that which we stored up within us, but Christ reveals when we've stored up that which doesn't belong. Then we have opportunity to confess our sin and be renewed in grace.
"And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." 1 John 3:3
I love this verse because it's not qualified by "may" or "might" and isn't conditional on anything but the hope of Christ.
Thanks for some comic relief. I love when a poll gives only 2 responses as though there were only 2 possible answers. Sometimes people try to put you in a box so that they can control whether or not you can get out, but if Christ sets you free, you are free indeed.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
The Greek word in 1 John 3:4 and 1 John 3:9 is ποιέω, "to do", so a literal translation is, "All the ones doing sin..." and "All the ones born from God do not do sin... and do not have the ability to sin..."
The real problem is that John has already said in 1 John 1:8-10 that anyone who says they have no sin and who says they never have sinned is lying. And indeed, if believers were really not able to sin, why in the world does John spend 23 verses (by my count) right up to the very last verse in this one short letter exhorting his flock not to sin? One might think this was a major theme of this letter...
What John is doing in 1 John 3:9 is appealing to his flock's identity as Children of God to exhort them to avoid sin, both sins of commission and sins of omission from not acting in love (which tend to get lost when talking about sin); see 1 John 3:10-18 and 1 John 4:7-8. This serves the rhetorical purposes of his letter and should be understood in this light.
I also want to point out that Jesus used a similar appeal to His followers' identities as Children of God when He exhorts us in Matthew 5:43-48 to love our enemies as God loves His enemies.
The real problem is that John has already said in 1 John 1:8-10 that anyone who says they have no sin and who says they never have sinned is lying. And indeed, if believers were really not able to sin, why in the world does John spend 23 verses (by my count) right up to the very last verse in this one short letter exhorting his flock not to sin? One might think this was a major theme of this letter...
What John is doing in 1 John 3:9 is appealing to his flock's identity as Children of God to exhort them to avoid sin, both sins of commission and sins of omission from not acting in love (which tend to get lost when talking about sin); see 1 John 3:10-18 and 1 John 4:7-8. This serves the rhetorical purposes of his letter and should be understood in this light.
I also want to point out that Jesus used a similar appeal to His followers' identities as Children of God when He exhorts us in Matthew 5:43-48 to love our enemies as God loves His enemies.
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Like doesn't seem sufficient as a rating for your post. I love it. The site should add little hearts or something so I don't have to do so much pecking at my tablet.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Claims are only true if you can back them up with Scripture (of which you did not provide). First, anyone who does not believe God’s words is an unbeliever (Including the Jews) (See: Hebrews 3:19). Just a belief in GOD, or believing part of His Word from one’s own slanted point of view does not make their belief in God and His Word correct (and is unbelief). The Jews ignored the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). Jesus said that His word has no place in them (John 8:37), and Jesus spoke by the commandment of God the Father (John 12:49). Second, the Jews needed to believe on Jesus for salvation even before the cross so that makes them unbelieving Jews (i.e. unbelievers). Three, in the OT, while only kings and prophets had the indwelling of the Spirit and not just everyone, to be born again spiritually did take place in the Old Testament. See the following thread here to check out the verses.
Old Testament saints were born again.
Four, you appear to think that sin cannot separate God’s people from God either in the Old and or the New Covenant.
But here are…
A List of Verses on How Serious Sin Can Separate Us From GOD:
[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).
[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).
And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).
"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).
"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).
"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).
“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22).
28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).
"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).
“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
(To be continued in next post):
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).
"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).
"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).
"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).
6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).
"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).
41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).
“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).
16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).
5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).
5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).
“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).
9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).
"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).
"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).
"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).
6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).
"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).
41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).
“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).
16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).
5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).
5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).
“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).
9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
No. The Jews were not outwardly righteous. If they were outwardly righteous, then they would not do things that Jesus rebuked them for. The Jews ignored the weightier matters of the Law and they were called as hypocrites by Jesus. So no. Their behavior was not impeccable in the eyes of God.
You said:
How would a saint be defined according to the Bible?
I would suggest that we should let the Bible define what a saint is.
I think looking at the word saint is one way to tell and then look at the context.
How do saints behave? Do they act like the devil or justify sin?
You said:
One who believes they can sin and still be saved is not born again. 1 John 2:29 says, “…ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”
You said:
No offense, but this is not my first rodeo in having these kinds of discussions. I have been discussing this topic for over 10 years. Many of Christianity sound similar to what you believe (in that they can sin and still be saved). Do you believe Jesus when He said to strive to enter the straight gate? (See: Luke 13:24). I say this because Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Paul himself said that if any man does not provide for his own he is worse than infidel (unbeliever) and he has denied the faith. Only a believer can do that (See: 1 Timothy 5:8). A fake believer (an unbeliever in disguise) cannot be worse than something that he already is (an unbeliever). Only a believer can be worse than an unbeliever by not doing the good work of providing for their own.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Ever notice how you don’t back up what you said in reply with Scripture when your belief is challenged?
You stated opinions dear sir and not Scripture. There is a big difference between the two.
In either case, may the LORD bless you even if we disagree.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No, not entirely.
To truly follow Christ requires discipline. Hence, the term disciple. One does not require discipline for what comes naturally. Christianity, therefore, is to go against nature, to choose to go with the supernatural Spirit of God.
There is being saved. And there is being sanctified. I think the OSAS crowd confounds the 2. Paul wrote about dying daily to Christ. It is not a 1 and done sort of thing.
Although I strive to live for Christ, I remain human, with human frailty and human limits of endurance, patience, tolerance, joy, and love. There are times I give into my anger, frustration, pain and impatience.
At least, I’ve had the satisfaction of knowing these fits of humanity, of living for the moment in the flesh, of sinning against my God, my savior and my fellow man have diminished over time.
If I did not confess this, I would be guilty of an even greater sin, pride. While I still sin, I don’t practice it. And this keeps me humble, more able to relate to all of God’s children, not just the Spiritually Uber-advanced. And most important of all, it keeps me close to God, for temptation to sin is a regular reminder of how much I need him.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Have you ever had a thought from yesterday, the week before, the month before, when it comes to your memory that you didn't do the right thing? What you did was not the standard in which you live your life since you came to Christ?
Of course you have, and so have the rest of us! This is the Holy Spirit reminding you of your faults, it's your sanctification taking place. Creating Christlikeness in you.
None of us are without sin, if one is honest with themselves. Sometimes we are just out right rebellious and sometimes our faults have to be brought to our memories.
When one comes to Christ we become sin conscience, we then see the sin in our lives. We will begin to see practicing sin that we keep repeating over and over again, but now we see this sin for what it is, the reason Christ was nailed to that Cross, and in our place.
This is what John is speaking of, but in the negative sense. John said in 1 John 3:8 that the Son of God was made known that He might destroy the works of the Devil. The works of the Devil is sin.
If one keeps committing these practicing sins with no care or no remorse of these sins, that person does not know God, that person is not born of God.
John plainly tells us that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. Then he said that when we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, He is the propitiation for our sins. In other words, Christ is the satisfaction for our sins.
I have seen many who come to Christ and struggle with the practicing sins they have grown accustomed to. They want to stop this sin and they begin to hate this sin. With time they will gain victory over this sin, but they are not cast away by Christ, they have placed faith in Christ and He will see them to the finish line through that faith.
Salvation is a matter of the heart, not a condition of whether you have stopped all the practicing sin in your life! If that were to be the case, the requirement for salvation would be based on your abilities and not His.
The perfect will of God for us is to be in the place of no known sin in our lives, that means that we have overcome the practicing sins in our lives, but we are not sinless, that is not possible in this fallen body. Some of us will never reach this goal, but thank God He did not call us in salvation to be perfect in overcoming practicing sin, He called on us to believe.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen! In Matthew 5:20, we read - "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." This statement from Jesus would come as a shock to the multitude of people who had great admiration of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law for their knowledge of the law and seeming righteousness in external observance of the law, yet Jesus points out their righteousness was defective.
We see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector an example of those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, yet despised others. (Luke 18:9-14) We also see this today with various modern day Pharisees who promote works righteousness. The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.
Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen and well said! Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Verse 4 was written to the same people verse nine was maam, therefore they can in fact sin. The original Bible did not contain the word commit nor practice, it was added in versions for understanding. Since all Christians sin, practice is the logical understanding.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament
Doeth no sin (αμαρτιαν ου ποιε). Linear present active indicative as in verse 1 John 3:4 (NAS) like αμαρτανε in verse 1 John 3:8 (NAS) The child of God does not have the habit of sin.
His seed (σπερμα αυτου). God's seed, "the divine principle of life" (Vincent). Cf. 1 John 3:1 (NAS)
And he cannot sin (κα ου δυνατα αμαρτανειν). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were κα ου δυνατα αμαρτειν or αμαρτησα (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive αμαρτανειν can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of αμαρτανε in verse 1 John 3:8 (NAS) and αμαρτανων in verse 1 John 3:6 (NAS) For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see αμαρτητε and αμαρτη in 1 John 2:1. (NAS) A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of αμαρτανειν here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Romans 6:1 (NAS) επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with αμαρτησωμεν in Romans 6:15 (NAS) (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).
1 John 3 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Doeth no sin (αμαρτιαν ου ποιε). Linear present active indicative as in verse 1 John 3:4 (NAS) like αμαρτανε in verse 1 John 3:8 (NAS) The child of God does not have the habit of sin.
His seed (σπερμα αυτου). God's seed, "the divine principle of life" (Vincent). Cf. 1 John 3:1 (NAS)
And he cannot sin (κα ου δυνατα αμαρτανειν). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were κα ου δυνατα αμαρτειν or αμαρτησα (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive αμαρτανειν can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of αμαρτανε in verse 1 John 3:8 (NAS) and αμαρτανων in verse 1 John 3:6 (NAS) For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see αμαρτητε and αμαρτη in 1 John 2:1. (NAS) A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of αμαρτανειν here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Romans 6:1 (NAS) επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with αμαρτησωμεν in Romans 6:15 (NAS) (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).
1 John 3 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Lambano
Well-Known Member
The overall message is, "You're children of God now. Children of God don't sin. So don't sin." (1 John 3:1-9)
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2)
This debate over words is missing John's point.
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2)
This debate over words is missing John's point.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman;
she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith,
I have done no wickedness.”
Isaiah 5:20 says:
“Woe unto them that call evil good,
and good evil; that put darkness for light,
and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet,
and sweet for bitter!”
Malachi 2:17 (AMP) says:
“You have wearied the LORD with your words.
But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?”
In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD,
and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”
But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?”
In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD,
and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”
What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).
In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,
“If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
(1 John 1:8 NET).
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
(1 John 1:8 NET).
In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.
John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.
You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.
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