1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

[Truth7t7]

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Amen. I've studied this over the course of about 50 years! A major thing I noticed is that all NT eschatology sources back to Dan 7, where the Son of Man has a meeting in heaven, and then is sort of given the keys to the earth. He returns from heaven, from the clouds, to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. In the process, he destroys the Man of Sin, who is leading in an apostasy against God, and persecuting God's People.

All of NT eschatology points back to this prophecy that God gave the Prophet Daniel. And so, if we are to understand NT images of biblical prophecy, we have to look back at the Postribulational context of Dan 7. Christ comes *after* the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist, to destroy him and to deliver the Church. This is the last day of the age, and the beginning of the reign of Christ.

The imagery, therefore, in 1 Thes 4 is absolutely in conformity with both Dan 7 and Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Only, in the Olivet Discourse Jesus 1st talks about the destruction coming down upon the Jewish rebels in his own generation. This will lead to an age-long trouble for the Jewish People until the Son of Man finally comes to deliver Israel's believers.

1 Thes 4 shows the Son of Man returning from heaven, with his mighty angels, a trumpet blowing, and the resurrection of the righteous taking place. We have to assume, from Dan 7, that this is taking place at the end of Antichrist's reign. The fact that the resurrection of the righteous takes place at that time is clear from Dan 12. And Jesus presented, in his Olivet Discourse, all of this context in his Olivet Discourse, also assuming that the Son of Man comes at the end of all of these Jewish troubles.

 

[ButterflyJones]

If salvation saves us from damnation through Christ, why wouldn't it save us from the reign of the Anti-Christ?

 

[Randy Kluth]

If salvation saves us from damnation through Christ, why wouldn't it save us from the reign of the Anti-Christ?

We are called to testify to the Gospel of Grace. A Gospel of Grace has no value if we do not experience some of the negative effects of sin for which we offer a solution.

John 17.15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

 

[ButterflyJones]

We are called to testify to the Gospel of Grace. A Gospel of Grace has no value if we do not experience some of the negative effects of sin for which we offer a solution.

John 17.15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

What solution during the reign of the Anti-Christ would we offer?

 

[Enoch111]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

Don't be deceived by the deceiver who posted this notice.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What solution during the reign of the Anti-Christ would we offer?

It isn't a problem. We are here to testify to the truth, which offers as a reward Eternal Life. Should there be any greater motivation than personal virtue and as a reward Eternal Life?

 

[ewq1938]

If salvation saves us from damnation through Christ, why wouldn't it save us from the reign of the Anti-Christ?

They are unrelated. Neither Jesus nor most of his disciples were saved from persecution, torture and murder. Christians have been suffering and dying at the hands of evil people ever since and still do to this day. Prophecy shows that will also happen during the GT at the hands of the AC (also known by other names such as the beast)

 

[David in NJ]

Amen. I've studied this over the course of about 50 years! A major thing I noticed is that all NT eschatology sources back to Dan 7, where the Son of Man has a meeting in heaven, and then is sort of given the keys to the earth. He returns from heaven, from the clouds, to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. In the process, he destroys the Man of Sin, who is leading in an apostasy against God, and persecuting God's People.

All of NT eschatology points back to this prophecy that God gave the Prophet Daniel. And so, if we are to understand NT images of biblical prophecy, we have to look back at the Postribulational context of Dan 7. Christ comes *after* the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist, to destroy him and to deliver the Church. This is the last day of the age, and the beginning of the reign of Christ.

The imagery, therefore, in 1 Thes 4 is absolutely in conformity with both Dan 7 and Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Only, in the Olivet Discourse Jesus 1st talks about the destruction coming down upon the Jewish rebels in his own generation. This will lead to an age-long trouble for the Jewish People until the Son of Man finally comes to deliver Israel's believers.

1 Thes 4 shows the Son of Man returning from heaven, with his mighty angels, a trumpet blowing, and the resurrection of the righteous taking place. We have to assume, from Dan 7, that this is taking place at the end of Antichrist's reign. The fact that the resurrection of the righteous takes place at that time is clear from Dan 12. And Jesus presented, in his Olivet Discourse, all of this context in his Olivet Discourse, also assuming that the Son of Man comes at the end of all of these Jewish troubles.

AGREE

Now, What is the evidence that validates your Post?

Answer/Evidence = 2 Thessalonians chapter 2

 

[Randy Kluth]

AGREE

Now, What is the evidence that validates your Post?

Answer/Evidence = 2 Thessalonians chapter 2

That is the best one. However, as I said, the entire body of NT eschatology is a throw back to Dan 7 and to its postribulational context. The same words, the same theme, takes place in both the NT passages and Dan 7. The only major distinction is due to the expansion of the Gospel of Christ from Israel to the nations. What initially was given exclusively to Israel is expanded, in the NT, to include all nations who wish to enter into God's covenant of grace, and to all individuals who wish to hold to righteousness in ungodly nations.

The same time frame is used in both Dan 7 and in 1 Thes 4, 2 Thes 1-2, 1 Cor 15, the book of Revelation, etc. They all speak of Jesus coming to bring vengeance against his enemies and deliverance for his saints.

However, in the OT this judgment and this deliverance is portrayed on behalf of Israel, who at that time were God's only people. In the NT, God's people have expanded beyond the borders of Israel, and the Son of Man is portrayed as coming against the enemies of *all* God's people, and to deliver *all* God's people, including a restored Israel and many peoples who have wished to enter into covenant relationship with God, as Israel had in OT times.

I find it important to recognize the distinction between Israel's ethnocentric perspective in the OT era and the perspective of NT writers, who wished to bring God's word beyond the borders of Israel to all nations. But as I said, the prophetic language, from OT to NT, is the same otherwise, and depicts the coming of the Son of Man consistently from Dan 7 to the letters of Thessalonians to the book of Revelation.

 

[Behold]

If salvation saves us from damnation through Christ, why wouldn't it save us from the reign of the Anti-Christ?

Good question.

Consider this....

God has saved us from Judgement...(The wrath to come)(Trib-Grt Trib). 1 Thessalonians 1:10....and now He would put the bride of Christ through it.... is what the Trib Junkies teach each other.

That'll never happen. as that wrath is for those who "Obey not the Gospel"...., and the born again did.......already.

 

[No Pre-TB]

That'll never happen. as that wrath is for those who "Obey not the Gospel"...., and the born again did.......already.

Hmm, the 144k arnt hurt. Noah and his family weren’t hurt. Moses and the Israelites weren’t hurt. But they did endure tribulation.

If the trumpets are wrath on man, why are we told only those that take the mark will endure God’s out poured wrath? There we are told is the steadfastness of the saints. They do not get the mark, they don’t endure wrath nor were they currently in it. Rev 14:9-12

 

[Behold]

Hmm, the 144k arnt hurt. Noah and his family weren’t hurt. Moses and the Israelites weren’t hurt.

Thessalonians was written after Jesus died on the Cross.

Was Noah, Moses, around then?

So, you have created a strange idea by using OT Saints, mixed in with NT Tribulation, to create a pipe dream heresy.

Congrats on such a fine effort to be so confused.
Is your Cult as confused as your are, No Pre-TB?
How can they not be, as you are their "fruit".

 

[No Pre-TB]

Thessalonians was written after Jesus died on the Cross.

Was Noah, Moses, around then?

So, you have created a strange idea by using OT Saints, mixed in with NT Tribulation, to create a pipe dream heresy.

Congrats on such a fine effort to be so confused.
Is your Cult as confused as your are, No Pre-TB?
How can they not be, as you are their "fruit".

How do you take a reply and twist it?

This is the point I was making, they all went through wrath or judgement. God’s people were not off world and they were and will be protected.

As far as a cult, I’m a born again believer of Christ who died for me and rose again. And it’s by God’s grace thru faith that I am saved. And I’m not ashamed to testify of what he did for the world or for me.

 

[David in NJ]

That is the best one. However, as I said, the entire body of NT eschatology is a throw back to Dan 7 and to its postribulational context. The same words, the same theme, takes place in both the NT passages and Dan 7. The only major distinction is due to the expansion of the Gospel of Christ from Israel to the nations. What initially was given exclusively to Israel is expanded, in the NT, to include all nations who wish to enter into God's covenant of grace, and to all individuals who wish to hold to righteousness in ungodly nations.

The same time frame is used in both Dan 7 and in 1 Thes 4, 2 Thes 1-2, 1 Cor 15, the book of Revelation, etc. They all speak of Jesus coming to bring vengeance against his enemies and deliverance for his saints.

However, in the OT this judgment and this deliverance is portrayed on behalf of Israel, who at that time were God's only people. In the NT, God's people have expanded beyond the borders of Israel, and the Son of Man is portrayed as coming against the enemies of *all* God's people, and to deliver *all* God's people, including a restored Israel and many peoples who have wished to enter into covenant relationship with God, as Israel had in OT times.

I find it important to recognize the distinction between Israel's ethnocentric perspective in the OT era and the perspective of NT writers, who wished to bring God's word beyond the borders of Israel to all nations. But as I said, the prophetic language, from OT to NT, is the same otherwise, and depicts the coming of the Son of Man consistently from Dan 7 to the letters of Thessalonians to the book of Revelation.

Here is one more 'Diamond of Truth' that substantiates not only Daniel chapter 7 but MOST IMPORTANTLY, Daniel chapter 12.

Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled,
just as He proclaimed to His servants the prophets.” - Revelation 10:5-7

 

[Truth7t7]

Good question.

Consider this....

God has saved us from Judgement...(The wrath to come)(Trib-Grt Trib). 1 Thessalonians 1:10....and now He would put the bride of Christ through it.... is what the Trib Junkies teach each other.

That'll never happen. as that wrath is for those who "Obey not the Gospel"...., and the born again did.......already.

The Two Witnesses Will Dominate The Entire Tribulation, Something Many Disregard As Non-Existent

Try Reading Exodus And The Plagues Upon Pharaoh And Egypt, It's Going To Be A Complete Replay

God's Divine Protection, "Open Your Ears"

(Revelation) 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

God's Divine Protection During The Final Hour Of Earth's Temptation, Just Like The Passover In Egypt, "Open Your Ears"

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The Great Trib Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.