1 Timothy 4:1-5. Hot Iron

[lforrest]

The Hot Iron seems poetic in 1 Timothy 4:1-5. I believe it refers to a brand, as cattle are branded with an Iron.

To brand something has many connotations.
1. By branding something you declare it belongs to you.
2. Being branded is a forceful act.
3. Being branded is a painful experience.
4. Being branded damages the nerves, making it numb to pain.
5. A brand overwrites any natural marks.

Any other observations?

 

[marks]

The Hot Iron seems poetic in 1 Timothy 4:1-5. I believe it refers to a brand, as cattle are branded with an Iron.

To brand something has many connotations.
1. By branding something you declare it belongs to you.
2. Being branded is a forceful act.
3. Being branded is a painful experience.
4. Being branded damages the nerves, making it numb to pain.
5. A brand overwrites any natural marks.

Any other observations?

I've never thought of this as a branding.

Being branded may not be what someone had in mind.

"Cauterized" is the word we get from the Greek, cauterization kills that part.

Branding does not heal, it has to be removed.

This brand is hidden, not on the surface . . . the hypocracy of those speaking lies, their consciences seared/branded . . .

These have been drawn away from their stand being seduced by demons.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And . . . the killer question . . . is there anywhere my conscience has become seared?

Have I accepted wrong ideas, such as thinking, I cannot put down that sin?

Even should we suffer from horrible compulsions or obsessions or addictions, that push us relentlessly towards sin, we should never give up on God's power to renew us. We need to be sensitive to any hardness of heart, and if we detect any, be quick to turn to God if only in an helpless plea for rescue and restoration.

" . . . but unto this one I will look, to him who is poor, and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My Word."

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Hot Iron seems poetic in 1 Timothy 4:1-5. I believe it refers to a brand, as cattle are branded with an Iron.

To brand something has many connotations.
1. By branding something you declare it belongs to you.
2. Being branded is a forceful act.
3. Being branded is a painful experience.
4. Being branded damages the nerves, making it numb to pain.
5. A brand overwrites any natural marks.

Any other observations?

The text reads literally, "In the hypocrisy of those speaking lies, whose own conscience has been cauterized, forbidding to marry, [and teaching] to abstain from meats..." It is obvious that the heretics here were the Essenes, who taught both these things. Thus, Paul was saying that those who ascribed to these teachings were not allowing their consciences to dictate their actions, but instead allowing a set of false doctrines dictated to them by an ultra strict, ritualistic Jewish sect to do so. But God had burdened Christians with no such things, and their consciences would have told them this if they allowed their consciences to continue being sensitive to what the Spirit was saying and not what the Essenes were.

I think the primary warning of the analogy is on no longer being guided by ones conscience because one has been talked out of doing so and this made insensitive to it. It goes to Paul's teachings on the importance of maintaining a clear conscience towards God and man, and how, "What a man does by faith he does unto God." I think it is paramount to becoming utterly dependent upon MEN to tell you what to believe and what to do. I'm reminded of a pastor who became a control freak, and wanted his congregation leaning on him to make the important decisions in their lives.

And yes, it pretty much does turn a congregation into mindless cattle, who can't think for themselves and need a "shepherd" to do all the thinking for them. I fear for that man. He was an old friend, and he now has thousands under his "mentorship," and he's unfortunately little more than a spiritual cattle brander who maintains the sheep for wool and mutton, in the name of "caring" for them.

 

[DNB]

And . . . the killer question . . . is there anywhere my conscience has become seared?

Have I accepted wrong ideas, such as thinking, I cannot put down that sin?

Even should we suffer from horrible compulsions or obsessions or addictions, that push us relentlessly towards sin, we should never give up on God's power to renew us. We need to be sensitive to any hardness of heart, and if we detect any, be quick to turn to God if only in an helpless plea for rescue and restoration.

" . . . but unto this one I will look, to him who is poor, and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My Word."

Much love!

Yes, this world makes us very desensitized. It's hard to tell right from wrong at times, when taught by the precepts of this world. one must really ostracize them self from the world's constructs, and immerse themselves in principles like; turn the other cheek, it's better to give than to receive, think of others above yourselves, the good Samaritan, the father's forgiveness of the prodigal son, there is no greater love than to die for another, ...

 

[historyb]

And . . . the killer question . . . is there anywhere my conscience has become seared?

Have I accepted wrong ideas, such as thinking, I cannot put down that sin?

Even should we suffer from horrible compulsions or obsessions or addictions, that push us relentlessly towards sin, we should never give up on God's power to renew us. We need to be sensitive to any hardness of heart, and if we detect any, be quick to turn to God if only in an helpless plea for rescue and restoration.

" . . . but unto this one I will look, to him who is poor, and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My Word."

Much love!

Awesome post!

 

[Philip James]

The Hot Iron seems poetic in 1 Timothy 4:1-5. I believe it refers to a brand, as cattle are branded with an Iron.

To brand something has many connotations.
1. By branding something you declare it belongs to you.
2. Being branded is a forceful act.
3. Being branded is a painful experience.
4. Being branded damages the nerves, making it numb to pain.
5. A brand overwrites any natural marks.

Any other observations?

Ive always kind of read this as taking extreme steps to silence the Holy Spirit...

Like pulling a tooth to silence the pain..

Peace!

 

[marks]

Yes, this world makes us very desensitized. It's hard to tell right from wrong at times, when taught by the precepts of this world. one must really ostracize them self from the world's constructs, and immerse themselves in principles like; turn the other cheek, it's better to give than to receive, think of others above yourselves, the good Samaritan, the father's forgiveness of the prodigal son, there is no greater love than to die for another, ...

This is why I've chosen to immerse myself in the Bible, in carefully selected music, in much much reading and study.

I feel that the Bible rewrites our minds. Yes, we are so steeped in the world! We have to counter that.

Much love!

 

[DNB]

This is why I've chosen to immerse myself in the Bible, in carefully selected music, in much much reading and study.

I feel that the Bible rewrites our minds. Yes, we are so steeped in the world! We have to counter that.

Much love!

Agreed, thanks!

 

[lforrest]

The text reads literally, "In the hypocrisy of those speaking lies, whose own conscience has been cauterized, forbidding to marry, [and teaching] to abstain from meats..." It is obvious that the heretics here were the Essenes, who taught both these things.

How could this be referring specifically to the Essenes? The context refers to later times.

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. "

It also appears to be a myth that Essenes taught these things about marriage and eating meat.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It also appears to be a myth that Essenes taught these things about marriage and eating meat.

A few sects within Essenism allowed for it but others did not:

There are about four thousand men that live in this way, and neither marry wives, nor are desirous to keep servants; as thinking the latter tempts men to be unjust, and the former gives the handle to domestic quarrels (Josephus, Antiquities 18)

They neglect wedlock, but choose out other persons children, while they are pliable, and fit for learning, and esteem them to be of their kindred, and form them according to their own manners. They do not absolutely deny the fitness of marriage, and the succession of mankind thereby continued; but they guard against the lascivious behavior of women, and are persuaded that none of them preserve their fidelity to one man.
Moreover, there is another order of Essenes, who agree with the rest as to their way of living, and customs, and laws, but differ from them in the point of marriage, as thinking that by not marrying they cut off the principal part of human life, which is the prospect of succession; nay, rather, that if all men should be of the same opinion, the whole race of mankind would fail. However, they try their spouses for three years; and if they find that they have their natural purgations thrice, as trials that they are likely to be fruitful, they then actually marry them. But they do not use to accompany with their wives when they are with child, as a demonstration that they do not many out of regard to pleasure, but for the sake of posterity. (Josephus Wars 2)

There are some who claim that the group Paul was referring to was something else, but I have yet to see them offer any historical proof that such groups actually existed.

How could this be referring specifically to the Essenes? The context refers to later times.

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. "

They believed they were living in the last days, Forrest. The full passage reads:

1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If you put the brethren in remembrance of these things, you shall be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto you have attained.

At the end he adds, "Take heed unto yourself and unto the doctrine; continue in them, for in doing this you shall both save yourself and them that hear you." If this teaching did not apply to them at this time, what was the need for Timothy to put everyone in remembrance of them? Why why would these teachings save them?

 

[lforrest]

A few sects within Essenism allowed for it but others did not:

There are about four thousand men that live in this way, and neither marry wives, nor are desirous to keep servants; as thinking the latter tempts men to be unjust, and the former gives the handle to domestic quarrels (Josephus, Antiquities 18)

They neglect wedlock, but choose out other persons children, while they are pliable, and fit for learning, and esteem them to be of their kindred, and form them according to their own manners. They do not absolutely deny the fitness of marriage, and the succession of mankind thereby continued; but they guard against the lascivious behavior of women, and are persuaded that none of them preserve their fidelity to one man.
Moreover, there is another order of Essenes, who agree with the rest as to their way of living, and customs, and laws, but differ from them in the point of marriage, as thinking that by not marrying they cut off the principal part of human life, which is the prospect of succession; nay, rather, that if all men should be of the same opinion, the whole race of mankind would fail. However, they try their spouses for three years; and if they find that they have their natural purgations thrice, as trials that they are likely to be fruitful, they then actually marry them. But they do not use to accompany with their wives when they are with child, as a demonstration that they do not many out of regard to pleasure, but for the sake of posterity. (Josephus Wars 2)

There are some who claim that the group Paul was referring to was something else, but I have yet to see them offer any historical proof that such groups actually existed.


They believed they were living in the last days, Forrest. The full passage reads:

1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If you put the brethren in remembrance of these things, you shall be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto you have attained.

At the end he adds, "Take heed unto yourself and unto the doctrine; continue in them, for in doing this you shall both save yourself and them that hear you." If this teaching did not apply to them at this time, what was the need for Timothy to put everyone in remembrance of them? Why why would these teachings save them?

I'm not buying it. The Spirit knows what time it is, if he were referring to the current day different language would be used.

This must have been relevant to the Ephesians as doctrines of demons are not only present in the later days. The forbidding to marry or eat meat are just examples.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm not buying it. The Spirit knows what time it is, if he were referring to the current day different language would be used.

I think many have a difficult time believing that the apostles assumed the Lord was returning in their lifetimes, but the evidence is pretty clear if you look at the NT scriptures. They made numerous references to it. But it doesn't mean the NT prophecies were false. Those that they believed regarding the return of the Lord did in fact appear to be coming to pass, but like the promise made to the woman in the garden, it was to throw Satan off. The Lord has been doing this since the beginning. Satan thought he would bring an end to mankind, since "in the day you eat you shall surely die," not knowing that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. By 70 A.D. it was very clear to the church that this same principle was in play where the seven days of creation was concerned, and that for six thousand years the Lord would do His work in the earth, but on the seventh day of the millennium He would finally take His rest. They also knew that they were more than 2,000 years away from that time according to the Jewish calendar, but until Jerusalem was conquered and yet the prophesies concerning the Antichrist were not fulfilled, the church as a whole was under the assumption that all things were about to be fulfilled.

As for the prophecy in 1st Timothy, that was a different thing. I do not see the cult of Essenism returning in the earth.

Now, I would be curious if you have a particular cult in mind that you think might fulfill this in the years ahead. That might be an interesting discussion, so feel free to comment. But as far as Essenism proper, I don't really see a resurgence of it.

 

[farouk]

I think many have a difficult time believing that the apostles assumed the Lord was returning in their lifetimes, but the evidence is pretty clear if you look at the NT scriptures. They made numerous references to it. But it doesn't mean the NT prophecies were false. Those that they believed regarding the return of the Lord did in fact appear to be coming to pass, but like the promise made to the woman in the garden, it was to throw Satan off. The Lord has been doing this since the beginning. Satan thought he would bring an end to mankind, since "in the day you eat you shall surely die," not knowing that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. By 70 A.D. it was very clear to the church that this same principle was in play where the seven days of creation was concerned, and that for six thousand years the Lord would do His work in the earth, but on the seventh day of the millennium He would finally take His rest. They also knew that they were more than 2,000 years away from that time according to the Jewish calendar, but until Jerusalem was conquered and yet the prophesies concerning the Antichrist were not fulfilled, the church as a whole was under the assumption that all things were about to be fulfilled.

As for the prophecy in 1st Timothy, that was a different thing. I do not see the cult of Essenism returning in the earth.

Now, I would be curious if you have a particular cult in mind that you think might fulfill this in the years ahead. That might be an interesting discussion, so feel free to comment. But as far as Essenism proper, I don't really see a resurgence of it.

@Hidden In Him I guess the point is also that, whether the Lord was to come very soon or centuries afterwards, the revelational and doctrinal goundwork is all laid for the return to happen but meanwhile those whom the Lord keeps here are here to serve Him in the Gospel, while waiting for Him, both 'redeeming the time' (Ephesians 5.16) and able to pray, 'even so, come, Lord Jesus' (Revelation 22.20).

 

[lforrest]

I think many have a difficult time believing that the apostles assumed the Lord was returning in their lifetimes, but the evidence is pretty clear if you look at the NT scriptures. They made numerous references to it. But it doesn't mean the NT prophecies were false. Those that they believed regarding the return of the Lord did in fact appear to be coming to pass, but like the promise made to the woman in the garden, it was to throw Satan off. The Lord has been doing this since the beginning. Satan thought he would bring an end to mankind, since "in the day you eat you shall surely die," not knowing that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. By 70 A.D. it was very clear to the church that this same principle was in play where the seven days of creation was concerned, and that for six thousand years the Lord would do His work in the earth, but on the seventh day of the millennium He would finally take His rest. They also knew that they were more than 2,000 years away from that time according to the Jewish calendar, but until Jerusalem was conquered and yet the prophesies concerning the Antichrist were not fulfilled, the church as a whole was under the assumption that all things were about to be fulfilled.

As for the prophecy in 1st Timothy, that was a different thing. I do not see the cult of Essenism returning in the earth.

Now, I would be curious if you have a particular cult in mind that you think might fulfill this in the years ahead. That might be an interesting discussion, so feel free to comment. But as far as Essenism proper, I don't really see a resurgence of it.

Any assumptions that the apostles had were not added to the inerrant, inspired word of God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him I guess the point is also that, whether the Lord was to come very soon or centuries afterwards, the revelational and doctrinal goundwork is all laid for the return to happen but meanwhile those whom the Lord keeps here are here to serve Him in the Gospel, while waiting for Him, both 'redeeming the time' (Ephesians 5.16) and able to pray, 'even so, come, Lord Jesus' (Revelation 22.20).

Absolutely!

Any assumptions that the apostles had were not added to the inerrant, inspired word of God.

Agreed, and I think that may have been another reason why the Lord may have allowed it. Were the apostles the ones to lay down the foundations of the Christian faith? Absolutely, and they will be honored in eternity for it, for not only laying down the foundations of the faith but laying down their lives for the Lord as well. Were they infallible? No. Only the Lord Jesus Christ is, and He did not intend for the church to rely solely upon the apostles, who would only live during the 1st century. Instead they were to depend upon the Holy Spirit, who would abide within the church from then until now, and until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ has come. This is Who Jesus said He would send to lead us into all truth, and it is why even they told the churches, "You have no need that any man teach you, for the Spirit Himself teaches you all things."

 

[Heart2Soul]

The Hot Iron seems poetic in 1 Timothy 4:1-5. I believe it refers to a brand, as cattle are branded with an Iron.

To brand something has many connotations.
1. By branding something you declare it belongs to you.
2. Being branded is a forceful act.
3. Being branded is a painful experience.
4. Being branded damages the nerves, making it numb to pain.
5. A brand overwrites any natural marks.

Any other observations?

Each brand is unique to the owner. No copycats!:)

 

[farouk]

Each brand is unique to the owner. No copycats!:)

@Heart2Soul Unique to each individual, while church history shows patterns of apostasy.

May we daily pursue prayerful Bible reading by His grace! :)

 

[lforrest]

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. "

This scripture is propheticly referring to the great apostasy, and may already be upon us. Yet it may not be fulfilled yet entirety.

A deceiving spirit is as one that enticed Ahab to go to war, and its intent is not good for the one whom adopts it. Spirits are ideas with a persona. For example the spirit that Marx adopted lead to 100 million deaths so far... The deceiving spirit doesn't let on its true intent, and doesn't really care about the lies (doctrines) it uses to achieve this goal beyond what is necessary to keep up the appearances of the deception.

 

[lforrest]

Another example of a deceiving spirit, suppose you encounter an angel and it tells you something that does not agree with scripture. That is not an angel you should listen to.