12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[Classic Rider]

12 Reasons why Hell is not eternal conscious torment
When an unsaved sinner dies he will at some later date be raised from the dead by God and face the Judgment. He will then be condemned and cast into Gehenna Hell. He will be punished with either many stripes or few depending on the life he lived. After he has been punished for all his sins he will experience a second death in which his entire self, body and soul, will be totally destroyed and done away with without any possibility of future resurrection. That is eternal death. Eternal death in hell is an eternal punishment because if you die the second death you will never be resurrected.

Many people believe that instead of being destroyed the sinner will be tortured forever by God. Here are twelve reasons why Hell is not eternal conscious torment… We will just look at the first two to begin with..

1. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because the Bible consistently states that the punishment for sin is to perish or to be destroyed or to experience death. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in Christ “shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Matthew 10:28 says to fear God “who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.” Romans 3:23 says “for the wages of sin is death.” If my soul perishes and if my soul is destroyed and if my soul experiences death then I am not going to continue forever in misery in hell. Jesus never says that a sinner will live forever in hell. He says that the fire is unquenchable and that the worms never die so that you will understand that you cannot survive hell by putting out the fire and stomping out the worms.

2. Hell in not eternal conscious torment because the Apostle Paul told the people in the 1st century that the wages of sin is death and in the 1st century the word death did not mean eternal torment… it simply meant death. In the literature of the day death just meant death. The greek word for death is Thanatos and it was used to mean death plain and simple. Also to perish and to be destroyed simply meant to perish and to be destroyed.
When Paul told the Romans that the wages of sin is death was he trying to confuse them? Paul knew that the Roman people had always used the word Thanatos to simply mean death. Knowing that Paul told them that the wages of sin is Thanatos (death). Why would he do that if he wanted them to understand that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torture? As serious as this issue is, why would Paul not choose a word that they would understand? He did. He chose death because the Romans knew what the word death meant.
Again, the word death did not mean only to be separated from God as some say. It is certainly true that if my soul is destroyed in hell that I will be separated from God. It is also true that sinners on earth are already experiencing the early stages of eternal death in that they are separated from God. However the word Thanatos does not mean to be separated and nothing more. That is a later invention of some church teachers. To perish doesn’t mean to be separated either. Neither does destroyed. If our soul is destroyed, and if we perish, and if we experience death... then we will not experience eternal conscious torment. I know about the passage in Revelation but the book of Revelation is a symbolic apocalyptic book using metaphors and figurative language so the verse about the Devil and the Beast and the second Beast (the false Prophet) is not to be taken in the most literal sense. If we do take that literally then it forces us to take the words death and perish and destroy in a figurative sense.... but those words aren't taken from symbolic and figurative sections of scripture.
I will give the other 10 reasons as we go along...

 

[Shirley]

I like what you are saying. I think this is what the Bible says. Thank-you so much for your courage!!!!

 

[Classic Rider]

Thank you Shirley... now to continue on...

3. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because the word death cannot mean an eternal existence where you cannot die, and perish cannot mean existing forever and not being able to perish and destroyed cannot mean living forever in misery without ever being destroyed. This is ridiculous double-talk and we would recognize that if we hadn't been previously biased.

4.(I skipped this one for now I will return to it later...)

5. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because only believers in Jesus are given immortality. If you aren’t a Christian your soul is mortal and, thus, when you are cast into hell your soul will die. I bet you have been taught that the soul is immortal and, therefore, must live forever either in heaven or hell. The greek philosophers taught that the the soul is immortal but the Bible never teaches such a thing. Only God is naturally immortal. 1st Timothy 6:16 says God “alone has immortality.” God naturally has immortality. We humans are mortal beings but we can get immortality as a gift from God if we become believers in Christ. If we naturally have immortal souls then why does Paul say that we are seeking for immortality? Romans 2:7 says that God will grant eternal life to those who seek for immortality. Now why does a person seek for immortality if that person already has an immortal soul? It is only through Christ and the Gospel that immortality is possible. 2nd Timothy 1:10 plainly states that very thing. It says that Jesus Christ, “has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel..” So only God is immortal but life and immortality come through the Gospel to those who believe. If you don’t get saved you don’t get immortality. Without immortality when you get thrown into hell your soul will be destroyed.

6. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because in the story of the rich man and Lazarus the rich man is not cast into hell, rather, he is in Hades and hades is not eternal. The greek word is not gehenna which represents hell. The greek word is Hades which is the temporary place of the dead. The rich man was tormented in Hades but it is never said that he was there forever. In fact, no length of time whatsoever is mentioned. Also the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Parables are not to be taken literally. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was told for many years before Christ was even born by the Jewish rabbis. Jesus put a new twist on the story though, because the Jews were in the habit of saying that the poor man went to Hades and the rich man went to paradise. Jesus flipped the story around and had the poor man go to paradise and the rich man go to Hades. Jesus wanted to show that the rich lawyers and Pharisees were the ones who were in danger instead of the poor followers of Christ. That was the point of the parable.

 

[Abeliever]

I've thought this for quite some time. But others Christians I used to know flamed me for saying it, so I gave up. I think the 1st thing a person who believes in a conscious eternal torment has to realize is the soul is not immortal. To me this is obvious because if the soul was immortal then Jesus statement in Matthew 10: 28 would be nonsensical.

I only disagree with you on 1 thing. I think the angels are also immortal. In fact, the only reason God had to create the lake of fire, was because of Satan and his angels. Although even for them, I believe the torment will come from being totally and completely, separated from God, for all eternity. It's a shame they don't understand how horrible it is to be alive and utterly separated from God. I think the verse in 1 Timothy you quoted means only God has the kind of immortality that can be given to others. Angels can't do this, and certainly the fallen angels can't do this. But even today Satan tricks people by telling them he will make them like God, ie. immortal. He's been telling that lie since Adam and Eve. That's why Paul had to make it clear only God can bestow immortality on someone. And it is a gift. The greatest gift you can receive.

 

[Classic Rider]

Yes, you may be correct about the angels... I haven't studied that much so I don't have much of an opinion about it.

Anyway here are reasons 7, 8 and 9 (I think reasons 10 and 11 may be the best ones)

7. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because the Old Testament consistently teaches that the wicked will be destroyed and utterly done away with. Surprised? The Old Testament teaches over and over that the sinner shall perish, that he shall be cut down like the grass, that he shall be destroyed, that he shall be cut off, that he will be no more so that he cannot be found, that he will vanish like smoke, that he shall be torn to pieces… etc, etc. Psalm 145 is typical, “… The Lord watches over all who love Him, but all the wicked He will destroy.” From the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were told that if they ate of the forbidden fruit they would surely die. Moses taught Israel that “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” That is the consistent teaching of the Old Covenant. This alone doesn't prove that there is no eternal conscious torment because many of there verses could be taken to mean either earthly destruction or the destruction of the sinner afterward...but that is not the point. The point is simply that the exclusive teaching of the Old Testament is that the wicked will be destroyed. We find no other teaching besides that one.

8. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because it would be hard to imagine that God in His love and mercy would have the entire Old Testament world believe that the wages of sin is death and that the soul that sinneth it shall die… and then after their physical death to tell them on judgement day, “Guess what? I know I never warned you about this but what I really meant when I said that the sinner would die and be destroyed was that you are going to be tortured in fire for eternity and not be able to die or be destroyed.” God is not so cruel as to mislead all of the world for thousands of years over something as serious as that. Instead, He told them even from the Garden of Eden that the penalty for eating the forbidden fruit would be that they would die. If it was really plain that to die actually meant eternal torture then why did the concept of eternal torture not arrive among the Jews until almost New Testament times. It is not until the Apocryphal book of Judith in the intertestamental times that eternal torture is clearly mentioned for the first time. Besides the Apocrypha is not inspired scripture even though it is thought to be so by the Roman Catholics.

9. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because the one time that the Old Testament does teach that sinners will be resurrected to be judged, it doesn’t say that they will live forever in conscious suffering. Now it is true that the sinner will be awakened from the dust of the earth to be judged. It is also true that the sinner will feel shame until his soul is destroyed. It is also true that saints in heaven will have contempt for sinners for all eternity. We do not doubt any of this. In Daniel 12:2 it says, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Now notice that this verse does not say that the wicked will awake to everlasting shame and contempt, but rather that they will awake to shame and everlasting contempt. The shame is not said to be everlasting but the contempt is. Before Hitler died he had a few days of shame and now he has everlasting contempt. That is possible. Since he died it isn’t possible for him to have everlasting shame as well as contempt because you have to be alive to experience shame. A person doesn’t have to be alive to be the subject of contempt. Contempt comes from others toward a person… the wicked person does not have contempt for himself. However, shame must be experienced by the person himself. So the wicked will awake from the dust to experience shame and then they will be destroyed and be the subject of everlasting contempt. Now if the book of Daniel would have said that the wicked will awake to everlasting shame and contempt then the concept of everlasting conscious torment would be proven. But it doesn’t say that. The wicked will have shame. Then they will be destroyed. Then they will have everlasting contempt from others. So the wages of sin is the death of the soul. But before the soul dies it will experience shame and torment. Then it will die. But the wicked as a group will always be the subject of everlasting contempt. So this verse cannot be used by anyone to say that the wicked will have eternal existence.

 

[Classic Rider]

10. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because if the wages of sin is death then it makes perfect sense that Christ had to die to pay for our sins. If, however, the wages of sin is living forever in fire, then Christ did not pay the penalty for our sin because He certainly did not burn and suffer for eternity in fire. It makes no sense to say that the penalty for man’s sin is to burn for eternity in fire and Jesus paid that penalty by being nailed to a cross and dying. Those are two completely different punishments. This is a very, very serious theological problem for believers in eternal torment. Now in order to try and explain this away some have said that since Christ is so important and worthy… for Him to suffer even a short while is worth as much as if a regular man had to suffer for eternity. That is like saying that if I am caught robbing a bank and am sentenced to 75 years in prison someone else can pay my penalty, and if he is a regular person the penalty for him will be 75 years… but if the Governor wants to pay my penalty, since he is such an important person, the penalty will be changed to a much lesser penalty. The penalty for someone as important as the Governor will be to stand in the corner for 5 minutes. Imagine that I owe a penalty of 75 years in prison and the Governor stands in the corner for 5 minutes and then says, “There! I have paid the penalty you owe!!! You may now go free.” That is utter foolishness. Adam and Eve were told the the penalty for sin would be death and ever since then we were told the same thing. So when Jesus came he became a man (a regular person) so that He could take our penalty. Jesus agreed to take our penalty…not a different one! The wages of sin is death! Now if you want to believe that Jesus paid a different penalty than the one man owed because He is so worthy he doesn’t have to pay the same penalty we do, you can do that, but just realize that that is a very different gospel than what we find in the Bible. The Gospel teaches that humans owed a penalty for sin and God became one of us so that He could pay our penalty. The Gospel is not that humans owed a penalty but God is so important that he paid a different one. Try preaching that and see how far it gets you!

 

[[email protected]]

12 Reasons why Hell is not eternal conscious torment
When an unsaved sinner dies he will at some later date be raised from the dead by God and face the Judgment. He will then be condemned and cast into Gehenna Hell. He will be punished with either many stripes or few depending on the life he lived. After he has been punished for all his sins he will experience a second death in which his entire self, body and soul, will be totally destroyed and done away with without any possibility of future resurrection. That is eternal death. Eternal death in hell is an eternal punishment because if you die the second death you will never be resurrected.

Many people believe that instead of being destroyed the sinner will be tortured forever by God. Here are twelve reasons why Hell is not eternal conscious torment… We will just look at the first two to begin with..

1. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because the Bible consistently states that the punishment for sin is to perish or to be destroyed or to experience death. John 3:16 says that whoever believes in Christ “shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Matthew 10:28 says to fear God “who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.” Romans 3:23 says “for the wages of sin is death.” If my soul perishes and if my soul is destroyed and if my soul experiences death then I am not going to continue forever in misery in hell. Jesus never says that a sinner will live forever in hell. He says that the fire is unquenchable and that the worms never die so that you will understand that you cannot survive hell by putting out the fire and stomping out the worms.

2. Hell in not eternal conscious torment because the Apostle Paul told the people in the 1st century that the wages of sin is death and in the 1st century the word death did not mean eternal torment… it simply meant death. In the literature of the day death just meant death. The greek word for death is Thanatos and it was used to mean death plain and simple. Also to perish and to be destroyed simply meant to perish and to be destroyed.
When Paul told the Romans that the wages of sin is death was he trying to confuse them? Paul knew that the Roman people had always used the word Thanatos to simply mean death. Knowing that Paul told them that the wages of sin is Thanatos (death). Why would he do that if he wanted them to understand that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torture? As serious as this issue is, why would Paul not choose a word that they would understand? He did. He chose death because the Romans knew what the word death meant.
Again, the word death did not mean only to be separated from God as some say. It is certainly true that if my soul is destroyed in hell that I will be separated from God. It is also true that sinners on earth are already experiencing the early stages of eternal death in that they are separated from God. However the word Thanatos does not mean to be separated and nothing more. That is a later invention of some church teachers. To perish doesn’t mean to be separated either. Neither does destroyed. If our soul is destroyed, and if we perish, and if we experience death... then we will not experience eternal conscious torment. I know about the passage in Revelation but the book of Revelation is a symbolic apocalyptic book using metaphors and figurative language so the verse about the Devil and the Beast and the second Beast (the false Prophet) is not to be taken in the most literal sense. If we do take that literally then it forces us to take the words death and perish and destroy in a figurative sense.... but those words aren't taken from symbolic and figurative sections of scripture.
I will give the other 10 reasons as we go along...

Those who refuse to believe in hell are destined for it.

Justice is meted out at the final judgment.....justice for those who have denied Christ and trusted in their own righteousness.

God is NOT fair. Never was .... never will be. God is just.

God does not grade on a curve like the teacher of a high school class full of losers.
God judges each man according to what he deserves....and that judgment is eternal. To the eternal reward of the sons and daughters of God or to the burning eternal flames of perdition prepared and stoked for sinners.

If God does not judge justly, then there is no justice either in heaven or on earth. If there is no hell, then Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Tse Tung are all saints. Not even fallible mankind acknowledges that these were good men. But those who believe that God is some kind of soft touch are in for a rude shock, a very rude shock.

If there is no hell, then we can do any damned thing we want and get away with it. Not so, for even the just are subject to punishment. As it is written, "judgment begins in the house of the Lord."

And outside the house of the Lord........damnation eternal.

There is no such thing as a license to sin.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Classic Rider]

I don't want to be misunderstood. I certainly am not saying that there is no hell. Unbelievers will die and will face the judgement and will be punished for their sins.

Jesus said this in Luke 12 46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

Sinners will receive the number of lashes they deserve some many and some few, depending on what they deserve. No one will recieve infinite lashes. God is just and will administer the exact amount. Now notice that Jesus speaks of quanity and not quality. It is not that some lashes are hard and some are soft but they go on and on forever... instead the point is the quanity.... some persons receive many lashes and some few. If hell were eternal conscious torment then everyone would recieve an infinite number of lashes only some would receive hard lashes and some less hard. Instead, the truth is that some will receive many and some few. Once you have recieved the right number you receive no more.

So what does this all mean? It means that the unbeliver is cast into hell and dies a painful but quick death or a painful but long and slow death depending on what sins he committed in this life. Thus his soul will be destroyed and he will perish. That is the second death and since there is no resurrection from the second death it is an eternal punishment. The first death is a temporary punishment, the second death is an eternal punishment. But it is the death that lasts forever not the lashes... they are limited in number to either few or many.

 

[Mr.Bride]

Imagine us with God for eternity, a billion years has passed(though we can't use time because there's is nothing but eternity) and the devil, his angels, and his followers are somewhere in torment. I don't believe that would, be so like you said they'll be destroyed.

It's like they never existed. Just part of Gods plan to show us who we are, and who God is. This "journey" is for God to show off His attributes and be God. Blessings

 

[KingJ]

There is no annihilation because God is not evil. 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. The gospel can never be preached as serve God or 'literally' die. Death has always being excommunication. Adam and Eve ate the fruit and did not literally die.

There is no eternal torture in hell because it is in God's heart to love His enemies Matt 5:44.

We have to understand hell in light of Rom 12:18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Wolves cannot live peacefully with lambs / God. So they are separated Matt 25:33.\

Annihilationism is almost just as bad as eternal torture. The Geneva convention instructed us to treat our enemies better then God will?

 

[Classic Rider]

We are just about done folks... here is number 11

11. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because if we say that it is we are breaking the rules of Biblical Hermenutics. Hermenutics are the principles of interpretation. One of the most important principles of Biblical interpretation is that literal passages should be interpreted literally and figurative passages should be interpreted figuratively. The Poetry in the book of Pslams should not be taken literally and the Epistles of the New Testament should not be thought of as just being figurative poetry. Now in the literal sections of scripture such as Romans we find the Apostle Paul teaching that “the wages of sin is death.” In other literal sections like the book of John we hear Jesus saying that whoever believes in Him will not perish. In other literal sections we hear Jesus say that we should fear God because He is able to destroy the soul.

In the figurative and highly symbolic passages like the book of Revelation the Apostle John says that the Devil will be cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Later it says that the unsaved will be cast into that same fire but it doesn't say that they will be tormented for ever and ever too. In any case, it is really ironic that many people say that we must take the words from the literal sections of scripture figuratively and we must take the figurative sections of scripture literally. For instance, they say that when Paul said that the wages of sin is death, even though the book of Romans is a literal section of scripture, we must take the word death figuratively. Death, they say, doesn’t really literally mean death it really means to be separated from God in torment for eternity in a place where you can never die. In other words death should be taken to have the opposite meaning of it’s literal meaning. Also, even though the word perish is found in a very literal section of Scripture, namely, the book of John, we are to take it figuratively to mean to suffer forever in a place where you can never actually perish. And again, in a very literal section Jesus tells us plainly that God is able to destroy body and soul. Nevertheless, we are told to take that figuratively to mean that the soul will suffer forever in a place that it can never be destroyed!
However, when we come to the book of Revelation, which is Apocalyptic literature and is highly figurative and symbolic we are told that we must take it totally literally when John sets forth a terrible picture of the beast and false prophet and the Devil being tormented day and night forever and ever. Let me ask you a question. Does it seem right to insist on taking the words from literal passages figuratively so that you can take the figurative passage literally? You want to take the figurative passage from Revelation literally but the words like death and perish and destroy from the literal passages are a problem. So you say that those words from those literal passages should be taken figuratively. How foolish and how totally improper from the standpoint of Biblical hermenutics. Stop taking literal passages figuratively so that you can take the figurative passages literally. This is totally wrong.
Besides all of that, even if we did take it somewhat literally, the beast and the false prophet and the Devil are not human. The devil is a fallen angel. If you want to take the beast and false prophet literally, which they might not be, the beast and the false prophets are the demons that possess the human antichrist and the false religious leader. I know this because the beast and false prophet are not born of woman. Revelation 11:7 says, “the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war with them and overcome them…” The Devil isn’t human and the beast comes out of the bottomless pit. So does the false prophet becasue he is referred to as "the second Beast". So this is the Devil and two demons.

What is actually going on here is simply that John is encouraging Christians in the Apocalyptic, figurative language of the book of Revelation that "Rome" (Secular Government) and the false prophet (apostate religion) will be utterly defeated and Christ will have the victory! So the only passage in the entire Bible which speaks of creatures being tormented forever is from a symbolic apocalyptic book which uses extreme figurative language to convey concepts about Christ overcoming his enemies. Don’t take that figurative language so literally that you have to take the literal passages of scripture figuratively in order to make them fit.
Now conservatives, when dealing with most doctrines, know to take figurative passages figuratively and literal passages literally. But when it comes to the doctrine of hell they have a problem when they do that. Therefore they become totally inconsistent and reverse the process. When it comes to hell they take literal passages that talk of death and tell us that we must take death figuratively to mean eternal suffering in a place where death is impossible. When it comes to figurative passages like the book of revelation that give us symbols of beasts and creatures being tormented forever they say we must take them literally to mean that people will be tortured eternally. Why are conservative teachers so inconsistent in their hermenutics? The answer: Because they have to be. Otherwise their entire system comes crashing down!

 

[KingJ]

12 Reasons why Hell is not eternal conscious torment
When an unsaved sinner dies he will at some later date be raised from the dead by God and face the Judgment. He will then be condemned and cast into Gehenna Hell. He will be punished with either many stripes or few depending on the life he lived. After he has been punished for all his sins he will experience a second death in which his entire self, body and soul, will be totally destroyed and done away with without any possibility of future resurrection. That is eternal death. Eternal death in hell is an eternal punishment because if you die the second death you will never be resurrected.

Many people believe that instead of being destroyed the sinner will be tortured forever by God. Here are twelve reasons why Hell is not eternal conscious torment… We will just look at the first two to begin with..

1. Jesus never says that a sinner will live forever in hell. He says that the fire is unquenchable and that the worms never die so that you will understand that you cannot survive hell by putting out the fire and stomping out the worms.

2. Hell in not eternal conscious torment because the Apostle Paul told the people in the 1st century that the wages of sin is death and in the 1st century the word death did not mean eternal torment… it simply meant death. In the literature of the day death just meant death. The greek word for death is Thanatos and it was used to mean death plain and simple. Also to perish and to be destroyed simply meant to perish and to be destroyed.
When Paul told the Romans that the wages of sin is death was he trying to confuse them? Paul knew that the Roman people had always used the word Thanatos to simply mean death. Knowing that Paul told them that the wages of sin is Thanatos (death). Why would he do that if he wanted them to understand that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torture? As serious as this issue is, why would Paul not choose a word that they would understand? He did. He chose death because the Romans knew what the word death meant.
Again, the word death did not mean only to be separated from God as some say. It is certainly true that if my soul is destroyed in hell that I will be separated from God. It is also true that sinners on earth are already experiencing the early stages of eternal death in that they are separated from God. However the word Thanatos does not mean to be separated and nothing more. That is a later invention of some church teachers. To perish doesn’t mean to be separated either. Neither does destroyed. If our soul is destroyed, and if we perish, and if we experience death... then we will not experience eternal conscious torment. I know about the passage in Revelation but the book of Revelation is a symbolic apocalyptic book using metaphors and figurative language so the verse about the Devil and the Beast and the second Beast (the false Prophet) is not to be taken in the most literal sense. If we do take that literally then it forces us to take the words death and perish and destroy in a figurative sense.... but those words aren't taken from symbolic and figurative sections of scripture.
I will give the other 10 reasons as we go along...

1. Not true. Matt 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." You have to force eternal punishment to mean annihilated forever. We cannot ignore how Jesus worded it. He did not word it ''They will no longer exist'' He said ''they will go away into eternal punishment''.

For me though Rev 20:10 kills the discussion and reads easily. Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Note it says DAY and NIGHT forever and ever.

There is also Psalm 49:11 The grave is their eternal home, where they will stay forever. They may name their estates after themselves,

2. Paul did not say eternal torture because hell is never mentioned as eternal torture. You are twisting the word torment in Rev 20:10 to equal torture. I know the NIV does that.

Thank you Shirley... now to continue on...

3. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because the word death cannot mean an eternal existence where you cannot die, and perish cannot mean existing forever and not being able to perish and destroyed cannot mean living forever in misery without ever being destroyed. This is ridiculous double-talk and we would recognize that if we hadn't been previously biased.

4.(I skipped this one for now I will return to it later...)

5. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because only believers in Jesus are given immortality. If you aren’t a Christian your soul is mortal and, thus, when you are cast into hell your soul will die. I bet you have been taught that the soul is immortal and, therefore, must live forever either in heaven or hell. The greek philosophers taught that the the soul is immortal but the Bible never teaches such a thing. Only God is naturally immortal. 1st Timothy 6:16 says God “alone has immortality.” God naturally has immortality. We humans are mortal beings but we can get immortality as a gift from God if we become believers in Christ. If we naturally have immortal souls then why does Paul say that we are seeking for immortality? Romans 2:7 says that God will grant eternal life to those who seek for immortality. Now why does a person seek for immortality if that person already has an immortal soul? It is only through Christ and the Gospel that immortality is possible. 2nd Timothy 1:10 plainly states that very thing. It says that Jesus Christ, “has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel..” So only God is immortal but life and immortality come through the Gospel to those who believe. If you don’t get saved you don’t get immortality. Without immortality when you get thrown into hell your soul will be destroyed.

6. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because in the story of the rich man and Lazarus the rich man is not cast into hell, rather, he is in Hades and hades is not eternal. The greek word is not gehenna which represents hell. The greek word is Hades which is the temporary place of the dead. The rich man was tormented in Hades but it is never said that he was there forever. In fact, no length of time whatsoever is mentioned. Also the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Parables are not to be taken literally. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was told for many years before Christ was even born by the Jewish rabbis. Jesus put a new twist on the story though, because the Jews were in the habit of saying that the poor man went to Hades and the rich man went to paradise. Jesus flipped the story around and had the poor man go to paradise and the rich man go to Hades. Jesus wanted to show that the rich lawyers and Pharisees were the ones who were in danger instead of the poor followers of Christ. That was the point of the parable.

3. Yes it can. What other word must God use for the opposite of life? What we need to stop doing is confusing the carnal with the spiritual. Death has never equaled 'cease to exist'. Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh. Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins Prov 8:36 But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death." 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

So we see a trend, death means 'not having life' = not having Jesus = not being with God = hating God. Kind of like Adam and Eve died when they left the garden...the fallen angels died when they left heaven.

5. Not true. Luke 20:36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels (fallen angels incl) They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

6. Why would Jesus use an actual name in a parable? God does not lie. He did not say ''Joe Soap''. The rich man's name was not given for obvious reasons.

 

[Wormwood]

I don't really have time to read through all the arguments so let me just respond by addressing some of your points as well as making some of my own.

Why I disagree with you:
1. Death is often referred to as separation from God. In fact, death is often referred to in the Old in New Testaments as Hades and Sheol. These were the "abodes of the dead." Thus, it is not clear that all understood death itself to be separate from conscious activity. Also, God told Adam that he would surely die if he ate the fruit. This death is first experienced by being cast out from the garden. His physical death did not occur until much later. So, I think you are right that people now are actually "dead" in their sins. They are walking dead. Jesus said that people were dead in their sins and that they had "no life in them." So yes, I think the Bible is very clear that "death" is not merely the lack of conscious activity, but a separation from God. People are often declared to be "dead" because of sin even through they are alive in the flesh. This answers a number of your points.

2. Many of your proof-texts and arguments are based out of the Old Testament. The fact is that the Old Testament says little to nothing about life after death either for the righteous or the unrighteous. So, based on this rationale, one could argue that heaven is not eternal either since it is scarcely spoken of in the Old Testament. However, we do see metaphors in the OT that lead us to think of God's judgment as eternal and his blessings as eternal. Either way, to suggest that because OT people didn't know any better that surely hell doesn't exist is a weak argument. Again, someone could say that they didn't have as much incentive to do good because heaven as an eternal place is not referenced in much detail either.

3. There are many texts that, while metaphorical, support and enduring suffering. You reference terms like "destroy" and "perish" to indicate finality. While this may be possible, there are also terms that indicate ongoing suffering. Jesus speaks of "everlasting destruction" where "the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." Moreover, the story of the rich man and Lazarus indicate a post-mortem ongoing suffering for the wicked. There are many phrases and illustrations used by Jesus and others that indicate that those who are judged by God will be resurrected to endure an ongoing and everlasting punishment meant for the devil and his angels.

4. The early church clearly understood the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles on judgment to be an eternal suffering. There is a wealth of teaching on the subject. In fact, the martyrdom of Polycarp shows Polycarp willing to endure being burned at the stake for Christ while warning his killers that eternal fire awaits them.

5. Many apocalyptic books and other literature that are non-canonical that range from 200BC - 100AD indicate that many Jews believed in life after death and understood the punishment of the wicked to endure for ranges from 10s of thousands of years to eternity...depending on the wickedness of the person. So clearly, some Jews did believe in everlasting punishment even through you argue that they would not come to such a conclusion from the OT. Clearly many did.

 

[Classic Rider]

You didn't need to tell me that you didn't read all my arguments because it was totally clear from the fact that most of the arguments you made were already dealt with and defeated in my earlier posts. I suppose all of us have jumped in at the last part of a series of posts and said things that had already been dealt with. I have done that myself. I think that you shouldn't depend too much on what you have heard about the apocrypha and uninspired historical writiings. I just finished studying both of those in light of statements about hell and it is a fairly suprising study. It isn't until the Apocryphal book of Judith that we find anyone saying that there is eternal conscious torment. That is almost up to the time of Christ. With regards to your comment about Polycarp... If you read the story about Polycarp it also says that when he was stabbed with a sword that a dove flew out of him! Now that is funny and it also proves that you can't believe everything you read in non cannoical uninspired human works. Regarding the meaning of death, I already dealt with that. Just because death includes the idea of separation does not mean the other aspects of death are thereby excluded. Eventually death will run it's full course. Life doesn't just mean fellowship with God it also means eternal existence. Death doesn't just mean separation from God and His heaven it also includes suffering as the soul dies in hell and then the eternal punishment of ceasing to exist and not having any promise of ever being resurrected. People in hell face not just a temporary destruction and then resurrection like here on earth but eternal destruction because their soul will never be resurrected. Jesus said fear God who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. He didn't say fear God who is able to separate you from God in hell. They were already separated from God so how would that cause them to fear? Anyway, you are free to read my entire thread if you wish... and, of course, you are free not to read it. Have a good day.

 

[Enquirer]

I disagree, hell IS ETERNAL, Jesus himself said so in Matt 18:8,

And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands
or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matt 25:46

Now in John 5:24 (below) as in Matt 25:46 (above), the Holy Spirit uses the same Greek word when speaking of "eternal", when describing the length of
time - not that eternity can be measured - one would spend in both heaven and hell.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed
from death to life.

So am I now to believe that He meant two different things when speaking of eternal, forever with one and a set time for the other ?
Of course not, eternal is eternal because that's what eternal means ... forever.

The real question is this ... should I believe Jesus or should I believe you ?

 

[Webers_Home]

-
Jesus' Father Has Seen A Man in Hell

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies
that the story is false. But the parable theory has a fatal flaw; and that flaw
is Abraham. Though Abraham's kin is referred to as "a certain" man;
Abraham himself is referred to by name-- a name held in very high esteem
by at least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity,
and Islam.

If Christ would tell a whopper about someone by name, especially someone
as important as Abraham, then what's to prevent him from telling whoppers
about ordinary rank and file pew warmers? Bottom line is: if Christ would
say things that aren't true about his own grandfather; then nobody's reputation
is safe in his hands.

There is something else to consider.

The story on record at Luke 16:19-31 didn't originate with Christ. No, it
originated with his Father. In other words: Jesus was micro-managed.

†. John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

†. John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

†. John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things
as the Father taught Me.

†. John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

†. John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent Me.

According to Isa 41:8, Abraham was God's friend. So by implying that Luke
16:19-31 is false, the parable theory insinuates that God is a person of
marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth about His friends.

NOTE: If Luke 16:19-31 is a true story, rather than false, and everyone
in the story is fully conscious, fully sentient, and fully aware of their
circumstances; then that means haides is a bit more complicated than just a
grave; rather, it's a zone in the netherworld.

Therefore, since nobody's interpretations can be guaranteed 110% infallible,
I would highly recommend that parable theorists begin using what time they
have remaining on their feet to begin preparing themselves for the worst
when they cross over to the other side just in case their ideas about Abraham,
Lazarus, and the rich man turn out to be totally unacceptable to God.


Buen Camino
/

 

[Classic Rider]

Here is something interesting…tell me what you think.
In Hebrews 6 we notice the term “eternal judgment.”
What is eternal judgment?

Hebrews 6:1-2
“Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

So what is eternal judgment? In the Old Testament Israel was often being judged by God for doing something against His will, and that led to a punishment on the nation of some sort. However, later on God would bless the nation of Israel once again. That is a temporary judgment.

However, an eternal judgment is different. An eternal judgment is one wherein the results of it last forever. On Judgment Day there will be an eternal judgment and the writer of Hebrews speaks of that. It is referred to as an eternal judgment not because people will be standing before God for eternity on Judgment Day continually being in the judging process. Instead, it is referred to as an eternal judgment because although the judgment is brief and takes place in just one “Day” the results of the judgment last for eternity. So eternal judgment means that the results of the judgment last for eternity.

Again in Hebrews 9:12 we see that the writer of Hebrews speaks of eternal redemption. What is eternal redemption?

Hebrews 9:12 says…

“Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place, once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

Now why is it referred to as eternal redemption? Is it because Jesus is dying on the cross forever always in the process of redeeming us? No, of course not. Redemption just took a few hours. However, the results of redemption last for eternity. Jesus redeemed His people in just one day when He died on the cross. Nevertheless, the results and effects of that redemption last forever. Eternal redemption means that the results of redemption last for eternity.

Next we read in Matthew 25:46 about eternal punishment. Jesus says, “And these shall go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life”. Now what does eternal punishment mean? Well Jesus said to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”. It may only take a while for God to destroy the soul but the results of that punishment last for eternity. That is why the bible speaks of eternal punishment. It is eternal because the result of that punishment lasts forever.

Now all of the biblical terms that have to do with the punishment of the ungodly are like that. The wicked are said to “perish.” Whosoever believes in Jesus shall not perish. It doesn’t take long for a sinner in hell to perish but the result of that punishment will last forever… so it is an eternal punishment. Again, the wages of sin is death. Now it doesn’t take long for the soul to die but the result of that punishment will last forever… so the second death is an eternal punishment. Finally, God is able to destroy the soul in hell, Jesus says. It doesn’t take long for Him to destroy the soul but the results of that punishment last forever so that punishment is called an eternal punishment. This is why the Bible speaks of everlasting destruction. It is not that the destroying process goes on forever but that the results of being destroyed is everlasting. If a person gets destroyed by God in hell that is an everlasting destruction.

Now I realize that there are scriptures that say that sinners will be cast into fire that cannot be quenched or eternal fire. However notice it says that the fire can’t be quenched it never says that the sinner cannot be destroyed. Again many will quote from the symbolic book of Revelation. However, no passage in Revelation ever says that HUMANS will be tormented forever.

In one passage it says that people will be tormented day and night without rest but it doesn’t say for how long.

In another passage it says that the Devil and the 1st beast and the 2nd beast (false Prophet) will be tormented forever and ever but the Devil and the Beasts are not human. It says that the Beast comes up out of the pit and that the 2nd beast is like unto the first Beast. So the beasts come up out of the pit where the fallen angles are imprisoned.

Then finally, it tells us that the sinful humanity is cast into the same lake of fire as the Devil and the Beasts… however, it doesn’t ever say that they will be tormented forever and ever like the Devil and the Beasts. That is speculation. So what I want to know is … where is a verse that ever says that HUMANS shall be tormented forever? It’s funny that when we actually take the time to examine the bible it often doesn’t say what we think it says….

 

[KingJ]

Jesus said fear God who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. He didn't say fear God who is able to separate you from God in hell. They were already separated from God so how would that cause them to fear? Anyway, you are free to read my entire thread if you wish... and, of course, you are free not to read it. Have a good day.

What you need to do is bold and underline ''able''. God can do what the hell He wants. But to assume God does in fact proceed to do evil...is simply an assumption and a BAD one about a God that has shown so much love. Much like Calvinism.

I am always quite surprised by anyone claiming to be a Christian and then believing in eternal torture or annihilation. I don't serve that God. But some clearly have no problem with that God....

We would not do that to our enemy...maybe the Russians and Germans of WW2...think about the fact that you believe God is on par with them and then ask yourself if and why you serve God. As anyone with IQ>10 knows annihilation and eternal torture = evil for humans / creations just beneath the angels.

 

[Classic Rider]

Hello Kingj. You know I agree with you that the thought of hell is destressing. That is one of the reasons I studied quite a bit about it. I did read Edward Fudge's book on "The Fire that Consumes". That is a very scholarly work. I believe that the traditional view is incorrect but at least they have some scriptures that they can use even if they do misunderstand some of them. The annihilationist or conditional immortality view has scriptural support but any viewpoint can be challenged and they all have strentghs and weaknesses.

Nevertheless, how you could read all of these passages and come up with the view that there won't be any death or destruction of any kind is hard for me to understand. I believe that God doesn't torture people forever but I don't see any way around the verses that indicate that people will perish or face a second death or be destroyed or something like that. I think that you simply don't think the Bible is inspired and infallible and inerrant. Is that how you do it? I am not accusing you of anything I am just asking.

Oh, I wanted to respond to one thing you said earlier... Concerning the mortality of sinners you said

"5. Not true. Luke 20:36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels (fallen angels incl) They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection."

This is obviously speaking of the saved not the damned. Jesus said...

"But to those who are accounted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."
NKJV

It is only the saved that Jesus says are like the angels in that they cannot die. The word "they" refers to those worthy. This just goes along with what I have said, namely, immortality (the ability to be like angels and not die) is a gift that is given to God's children not unbelievers. The other interesting thing here is that a connection is made between being resurrected and being a son of God. Unbelievers don't experience a true resurrection... they are raised in their mortal condition and so will die a second death. Only believers have a true resurrection in that they are raised immortal. As the verse you quoted says..."They are God's children SINCE they are children of the RESURRECTION." That sentence wouldn't make any sence if everyone including the unbelievers experienced resurrection is the true sense of the word.

 

[KingJ]

Oh, I wanted to respond to one thing you said earlier... Concerning the mortality of sinners you said

"5. Not true. Luke 20:36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels (fallen angels incl) They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection."

This is obviously speaking of the saved not the damned. Jesus said...

"But to those who are accounted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."
NKJV

This is just clarifying / confirming that the 'worthy'... have eternal life. As eternal life > death > eternal torture. You are assuming it translates into the unworthy not being eternal. You need to read scripture dealing directly with the unworthy, like Rev 20 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hello Kingj. You know I agree with you that the thought of hell is destressing. That is one of the reasons I studied quite a bit about it. I did read Edward Fudge's book on "The Fire that Consumes". That is a very scholarly work. I believe that the traditional view is incorrect but at least they have some scriptures that they can use even if they do misunderstand some of them. The annihilationist or conditional immortality view has scriptural support but any viewpoint can be challenged and they all have strentghs and weaknesses.

Nevertheless, how you could read all of these passages and come up with the view that there won't be any death or destruction of any kind is hard for me to understand. I believe that God doesn't torture people forever but I don't see any way around the verses that indicate that people will perish or face a second death or be destroyed or something like that. I think that you simply don't think the Bible is inspired and infallible and inerrant. Is that how you do it? I am not accusing you of anything I am just asking.

Re the underlined...the same way I read all the passages of Jesus talking to God as 'still' equaling a trinity / one God. The same way I interpret the rapture. I grasp what I read / read what is not written. Death does not equal ''death'' as I have already explained.

You are forgetting one valuable truth in your studies. ALL scripture must be read in light of WHO God is. God is good. Psalm 136:1 says ''Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever''. You need to ''''grasp''' what it does NOT say. It does NOT say, ''He is good and evil'' It does not say ''He is generally good, but a mental case on punishment''. If it were the case...we would NOT '''give thanks'''. David said give thanks because the Lord IS good. Give thanks because the Lord IS just. Give thanks because the Lord IS sane. Give thanks because the Lord LOVES HIS ENEMIES. We need to grasp that God is defined in human terms...and the absolute extremity of those terms. Eph 3:18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God's people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is.

When we read about something distressing...we need to read it in that light. Exactly like what Jonah did...Jonah 4:2 for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

So now, we know that there is a verdict that many hate God by loving darkness John 3:19...so what does a GOOD, loving, kind, merciful, gracious, longsuffering, humble God, whose love is BEYOND anything we can imagine or muster up..... going to do with those who don't want to be with Him? We ''''should''' imagine the best version of '''loving our enemies''' and then accept that God will do better.

Remember the devil wanted God's seat = An ANT thought he could take the throne seat from God of the universe. Have you got an ANT in your house that wants your seat? What does that tell you about God? It tells me that God is EXTREMELY humble and merciful.

Sinners today are having a GREAT time in their sin. YET God says they are suffering in death (scripture given in post # 12)...why????????
God KNOWS what they are missing out on and to God that is terrible / death / catastrophe / worse thing that can happen. But to them...its just out of His presence.

Conclusion: Scripture is inerrant. But you need to take all scripture and learn to read what you are not reading.

If God is behind annihilation or eternal torture...guess what...''He is not good''' = judgment from ANY sane mind. David and Jonah were mad or scripture is false according to your belief... the irony .

Some side thoughts:

1. Does your renewed Christian heart prompt you to kill, torture or visit and help as best you can, your enemy in prison?
2. Does God love or hate His enemy?
3. Would you willingly serve a God that you knew will annihilate your unsaved wife or kids?
4. How would you treat your enemy? Like the Russians and Germans of WW 2 or like the Geneva convention? ...or better?