12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[Wormwood]

1. We need to look deeper. Enslavement to oppressors and plagues is loving. Its God turning up the heat / trying to prompt us to change for the better. God always expresses love to His enemies

This is what you said, and this is what I quoted from you in my response. My comments were directed at this statement. When God flooded the world, he killed all the inhabitants but eight. There was no prompting in this judgment for the people to do better. God was not showing love to his enemies. The Judgment was final. That was my point. I was not attempting to address the suffering issue in Judgment in this comment. I was addressing the above comment where you claimed God uses judgment "always" as an expression of love. This is simply false.

“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:26–29, ESV)

Clearly, as seen above, there are points in which God's judgment is all about wrath and punishment...not about restoration and love.

3. ''You have been implying that God will ultimately love all his enemies and that is what I am contesting'' Yes I have. As much as is possible. Isn't that what Matt 5:44 says we must do? Add that to Mal 3:6 (God does not change) and we have what should be painfully obvious to us all.

No, God does not change. However, simply because God shows love to his enemies, does not mean he is bound by such and can only show them love. As I have tried to show previously, we clearly see that while God loves his enemies, he expects people to repent and there are limited windows for them to do so. You must keep God's attributes in balance or you paint him into a corner of what he can and cannot do. I think that is unwise and unbiblical.

4. ''My point is that we have no concept of what holiness and righteousness truly is''. This I disagree with completely. We have 1 Cor 6:2 Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? and 1 Cor 6:3. If you reject that well then Paul is clear that we can judge ourselves and escape God's judgment 1 Cor 11:31. Heck if we had no clue, why do some of us go to hell in the first place?

I think you are missing my point. I am not arguing that we cannot know right from wrong. I am saying that the depth of our sin and evil before a completely holy God is beyond our comprehension. Thus, his righteous judgment is beyond our comprehension. This is a continual theme in Scripture:

“I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”” (Job 42:5–6, ESV)

I think this is how all of us will feel when we actually see the Lord of Hosts. His holiness is beyond our comprehension and thus the depths of his grace are beyond us...in fact, we are called to pray to understand the immeasurable love of God in Christ. These things exceed our grasp. Thus we must rely on Scripture, not our own sense of justice concerning the fate of the wicked.

Everything. If unsaved humans can treat enemies humanely, how much more us? How much more God?

I agree that God will punish each one in accordance to what is right and just. I just think we are not in a position to give such sentences because we are not the Almighty.

6. Well then you and I differ. I will not fall on my face willingly if God is not good.

God is good. You are not. That has been my point. You have no concept of what justice is for sin because you and I are both sinners. Let us allow the good and Almighty God to determine that. And I think Scripture indicates what that will look like, and it is terrifying and seemingly endless.

 

[KingJ]

This is what you said, and this is what I quoted from you in my response. My comments were directed at this statement. When God flooded the world, he killed all the inhabitants but eight. There was no prompting in this judgment for the people to do better. God was not showing love to his enemies. The Judgment was final. That was my point. I was not attempting to address the suffering issue in Judgment in this comment. I was addressing the above comment where you claimed God uses judgment "always" as an expression of love. This is simply false.

I was talking about plagues and enslavement there, not hell. Once we dead time is up. We both agree on that.

“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:26–29, ESV)

Clearly, as seen above, there are points in which God's judgment is all about wrath and punishment...not about restoration and love.

You are not getting it. We see God's love in His wrath and punishment. His wrath / ending peoples lives is never torturous. Prophets would burn sorcerers properly. Not small fires. Prophets OT ordered enemies to be killed instantly / properly. Not tortured to death.

That scripture quoted is interesting indeed in how it speaks of ex Christians who go to hell and suffer more.

No, God does not change. However, simply because God shows love to his enemies, does not mean he is bound by such and can only show them love. As I have tried to show previously, we clearly see that while God loves his enemies, he expects people to repent and there are limited windows for them to do so. You must keep God's attributes in balance or you paint him into a corner of what he can and cannot do. I think that is unwise and unbiblical.

I agree 100%. His punishment is eternal. So too is His love. That is the balance. God is who He is. Recall my Oscar Pretorius example. It is the best way to explain. The Geneva convention example too.

I think you are missing my point. I am not arguing that we cannot know right from wrong. I am saying that the depth of our sin and evil before a completely holy God is beyond our comprehension. Thus, his righteous judgment is beyond our comprehension. This is a continual theme in Scripture:

“I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”” (Job 42:5–6, ESV)

I think this is how all of us will feel when we actually see the Lord of Hosts. His holiness is beyond our comprehension and thus the depths of his grace are beyond us...in fact, we are called to pray to understand the immeasurable love of God in Christ. These things exceed our grasp. Thus we must rely on Scripture, not our own sense of justice concerning the fate of the wicked.

Of course we can't fully grasp God. Job 9:3 makes that clear. But we do have a brain. It gets bigger in heaven. Try and use lateral thought here. Does the evidence point toward God telling us ''You are too dumb to grasp why I am torturing your ex wife at the stake, causing her to scream and cry for all eternity''

God is good. You are not. That has been my point. You have no concept of what justice is for sin because you and I are both sinners. Let us allow the good and Almighty God to determine that. And I think Scripture indicates what that will look like, and it is terrifying and seemingly endless.

I am going to sound like a broken record now, but you are yet again ignoring the fact that God describes Himself in scripture + God does not lie + God does not change = we can have valid expectations of seeing God still fulfill scripture of loving His enemies...even whilst He has scripture that is eternally terrifying.

Just use some lateral thought. A good God is keeping those who hate Him alive for all eternity as 1. a reminder to us of what happens if we anger Him? 2. As entertainment for us in heaven? 3. Because his ''just'' judgment equals eternal torture for a thief who pulls the middle finger to Jesus?

No, Christian common sense should tell us that He still has plans and a life for them to live. We are talking about billions of humans and angels.

We cannot grasp God but WHY in the universe do we err on the side of God being UNJUST according to our ability to grasp what is just???? We ''should'' be expecting the best case scenario for the wicked. Ie. Eternal banishment + suffering according to deeds + fresh fruit + houses + brains to build and invent things + many things to do for all eternity + occasional visits from us.

 

[Tess]

I don't have any thoughts as intellectual as some of you, but I will add my thoughts all the same!

I agree that I think hell is not constant eternal torture, that seems unlikely to me for several reasons, which have already been voiced. However, I do think there will be some sort of punishment for those who don't accept Jesus. Maybe that will be through some sort of physical punishment, maybe it will be emotional or maybe it will be that they die. Personally, I don't think it matters much what the punishment will be or how it is carried out for a few reasons:

1 -We all agree that God is good and God is just and God loves all of us. Personally, I think that knowing that God is good and just is enough; we may not fully understand his judgement but we can rest assured that it will be right. God is not going to torture people endlessly without reason because he loves us all.

2 -We know that the Bible is only part of God's plan; we can't fully understand what is going to happen and God's plan for eternity, but we can rest assured that it will be just.

3 -As some of you have already said, we can agree that hell (whatever hell might actually be or look like) is not where anyone wants to be, so I don't think the specifics matter too much.

 

[Wormwood]

You are not getting it. We see God's love in His wrath and punishment. His wrath / ending peoples lives is never torturous. Prophets would burn sorcerers properly. Not small fires. Prophets OT ordered enemies to be killed instantly / properly. Not tortured to death.

That scripture quoted is interesting indeed in how it speaks of ex Christians who go to hell and suffer more.

You should study some history about how the Assyrians and Babylonians treated the peoples they conquered. The Assyrians were known for being barbarous. They would cut pregnant women open, tear out their babies and smash them on rocks. Both countries would come in and rip people out of the land and march them hundreds of miles home while bound with hooks in their noses. The judgment of God in Joel came in the form of a locust plague that left the people starving to death. The judgment that came in 70AD, as depicted by Josephus, left people starving from the siege of the Romans such that they were eating their own children. God's judgment was not quick and painless in these instances. I think your assessment of both these judgments as well as what Jesus says about the ultimate judgment, is way off.

I agree 100%. His punishment is eternal. So too is His love.

Then we agree on this.

Of course we can't fully grasp God. Job 9:3 makes that clear. But we do have a brain. It gets bigger in heaven. Try and use lateral thought here. Does the evidence point toward God telling us ''You are too dumb to grasp why I am torturing your ex wife at the stake, causing her to scream and cry for all eternity''

Yes, we have a brain that cannot begin to conceive the holiness of God. We also have a brain that allows us to read his Word. I simply cannot understand why Jesus would speak so explicitly about hell and use terms such as "eternal fire" if he really only meant 5 minutes of fire followed by eternal separation from God. When it comes to issues like these, I have to side with the Scriptures and not what common sense would dictate as the things of God are in no way common.

I am going to sound like a broken record now, but you are yet again ignoring the fact that God describes Himself in scripture + God does not lie + God does not change = we can have valid expectations of seeing God still fulfill scripture of loving His enemies...even whilst He has scripture that is eternally terrifying.

I think you are confusing the immutability of God's character with the idea that God cannot change in his actions. God is always gracious and he is always forgiving. That is his character. This does NOT mean that God will ALWAYS give grace to and forgive Joe Smith. While God's character means he is always forgiving in nature, Scripture clearly teaches that there are windows of opportunity to receive that forgiveness. "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Today is the day of salvation, but if Joe Smith rejects God's message of reconciliation, there is nothing left but a fearful expectation of judgment that will consume the enemies of God. Has God's character changed if he judges Joe Smith? No, because God is both forgiving and just. Joe Smith had an opportunity to receive forgiveness, but he rejected it. Now he encounters God's justice. So, God does NOT cease to be forgiving because Joe Smith is condemned. Does this make sense?

 

[ATP]

Guys, it is easy to quote scripture on hell and read..

But the scripture that I'm quoting is from the Word of God, and the Word tells us that hell is eternal. The scriptures in post#29.

 

[KingJ]

You should study some history about how the Assyrians and Babylonians treated the peoples they conquered. The Assyrians were known for being barbarous. They would cut pregnant women open, tear out their babies and smash them on rocks. Both countries would come in and rip people out of the land and march them hundreds of miles home while bound with hooks in their noses. The judgment of God in Joel came in the form of a locust plague that left the people starving to death. The judgment that came in 70AD, as depicted by Josephus, left people starving from the siege of the Romans such that they were eating their own children. God's judgment was not quick and painless in these instances. I think your assessment of both these judgments as well as what Jesus says about the ultimate judgment, is way off.

The Assyrians and Babylonians are not God. The locust plague is interesting but in no way contradicts my statements of God. Do you think if the people repented / followed Psalm 51:17 God would not stop the plague / feed them? If God had no hope for them, He would have killed them instantly. As long as anyone is alive, they HAVE the power to get on their knees and repent.

We don't need to look at the Romans for people starving from sieges. We have Stalingrad and Leningrad. This is not God's doing though. Throughout history we see evil humans getting away with extreme evil toward the God-fearing and the ungodly. This points toward free will and not an evil God. God is with His people in their suffering.

God not helping the wicked from the wicked is because He is unable to help / along the lines of not hearing their prayers John 9:31.

I think we have both over-killed the rest of your post ^_^. Thanks for the discussion. I will chew on all you have said.

But the scripture that I'm quoting is from the Word of God, and the Word tells us that hell is eternal. The scriptures in post#29.

Hey bud. Please read my posts to Wormwood. I am not proposing that you ignore the scripture you quoted. Just that you consider it in light of all scripture.

 

[ATP]

Hey bud. Please read my posts to Wormwood. I am not proposing that you ignore the scripture you quoted. Just that you consider it in light of all scripture.

No need, the Word of God is pretty straight forward.

 

[KingJ]

No need, the Word of God is pretty straight forward.

Agreed! Word of God = God loves His enemies but they hate Him. A home for wolves can only be described by Him as a terrible place in comparison to heaven, the place that He will spoil His children rotten.

 

[ATP]

Agreed! Word of God = God loves His enemies but they hate Him. A home for wolves can only be described by Him as a terrible place in comparison to heaven, the place that He will spoil His children rotten.

To prove that hell isn't eternal, you would have to explain away Mark 9:42-48, Matt 25:46, Rev 20:12-15 and Rev 20:10. :mellow:

 

[Phoneman777]

.

Guys, it is easy to quote scripture on hell and read / believe it 'as is'. But HOW are you any different from the devil tempting Jesus to jump when you exclude scripture like Matt 5:44 and Rom 2:6?

God does not change, amen? God shall and wants us to love our enemies today and tomorrow, amen? So....How in your mind do you see God fulfilling Matt 5:44 in the future / after the white throne judgment? Do you ''''really''' believe eternity in fire = loving enemies? Really...........???????

This is so funny. ''I believe in a good, merciful and longsuffering God who died for me, instructs me to turn the left cheek, not resist an evil person, love my enemies, do unto others as I want done unto me........and will *cough*.......torture His enemies in hell for eternity''.

Your renewed Christian heart is fine with seeing your enemy burn for eternity? If that is the case, then God is good + an evil mental case on punishment and all us Christians with professed new hearts should be burdened to take them water and sun cream. It is a joke that any Christian be able to drink tea and enjoy a banquet in heaven whilst our enemies are ''suffering unjustly'' in fire! When Jesus suffered for only a day for all our sins.

Brother, I've been believing all this and more for years. To me, the most powerful evidence against eternal torment is the logic that if the wages of sin is eternal torment, then the only way for Jesus to take our place and pay that penalty for sin that we owe instead of us is that He be eternally tormented.

 

[ATP]

To me, the most powerful evidence against eternal torment is the logic that if the wages of sin is eternal torment, then the only way for Jesus to take our place and pay that penalty for sin that we owe instead of us is that He be eternally tormented.

He bore all of our sins from beginning to end. Jesus (conquered) hell eternal by conquering our sins. The victory is His, so why would he have to spend eternity in hell.

Luke 22:44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
1 Peter 2:24 "He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."

Hell is simply separation from God, and it is eternal. The Word of God says so in Mark 9:42-48, Matt 25:46, Rev 20:12-15 and Rev 20:10. Heaven is everything hell is not...

eternal life / eternal punishment
love / hate
joy / depression
peace / worry
forbearance / agitation
kindness / hostility
goodness / wickedness
faithfulness / disloyalty
gentleness / hardness
self-control / instability

 

[Aaron Lindahl]

ATP, I find your intentions and words to be of the highest level of righteousness and love.

 

[ATP]

ATP, I find your intentions and words to be of the highest level of righteousness and love.

Thank you Aaron, but I give all praise to our Lord Jesus. My righteousness is but filthy rags. Say, what are your thoughts on an eternal hell. - ATP

 

[KingJ]

To prove that hell isn't eternal, you would have to explain away Mark 9:42-48, Matt 25:46, Rev 20:12-15 and Rev 20:10. :mellow:

Who said I said hell is not eternal? Please read the posts between Wormwood and myself.

Brother, I've been believing all this and more for years. To me, the most powerful evidence against eternal torment is the logic that if the wages of sin is eternal torment, then the only way for Jesus to take our place and pay that penalty for sin that we owe instead of us is that He be eternally tormented.

Agreed. I would say the strongest logical argument for me is looking at the Geneva convention with Matt 5:44. Enemies were not to be tortured or killed, but kept in humane concentration camps. The argument is that if the unsaved can treat enemies well, how much more us, how much more God.

The Geneva convention has been updated for better treatment many times since its inception. But what is very interesting is the terms and conditions in the first 1929 signing.

Articles 11, 12, and 13 states that: "Food must be of a similar quality and quantity to that of the Belligerent's own soldiers, and POWs cannot be denied food as a punishment; A canteen selling local produce and products should be provided. Adequate clothing should be provided; and that sanitary service in camps should be more than sufficient to prevent epidemics."
Articles 14 and 15 covers the provision of medical facilities in each camp.
Articles 16 and 17 covers the provision of religious needs, intellectual diversions and sport facilities.
Articles 18 and 19 covers the internal discipline of a camp which is under the command of a responsible officer.
Articles 20, 21, 22, and 23 states that officers and persons of equivalent status who are prisoners of war shall be treated with the regard due their rank and age and provide more details on what that treatment should be.
Article 24 covers the rate of pay of prisoners of war.
Articles 25 and 26 covers the responsibilities of the detaining authority when transferring prisoners from one location to another. Prisoners must be healthy enough to travel, they must be informed to where they are being transferred; and their personal possessions, including bank accounts, should remain accessible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention_(1929)

Now after the war the Germans ran from the Russians because they knew Russia would not honor these rules. Is our God to be compared with bloodthirsty Russians of WW2...??

 

[ATP]

Who said I said hell is not eternal? Please read the posts between Wormwood and myself.

We're you just letting off steam here......

Do you ''''really''' believe eternity in fire = loving enemies? Really...........???????

This is so funny. ''I believe in a good, merciful and longsuffering God who died for me, instructs me to turn the left cheek, not resist an evil person, love my enemies, do unto others as I want done unto me........and will *cough*.......torture His enemies in hell for eternity''.

Your renewed Christian heart is fine with seeing your enemy burn for eternity? If that is the case, then God is good + an evil mental case on punishment and all us Christians with professed new hearts should be burdened to take them water and sun cream. It is a joke that any Christian be able to drink tea and enjoy a banquet in heaven whilst our enemies are ''suffering unjustly'' in fire! When Jesus suffered for only a day for all our sins.

 

[brakelite]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.
1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?
Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place. The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And there are scores of scriptures that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 5:9
These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.
1 Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2 Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3 Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.
If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity being tortured in hell?
b If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?
c If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)
d And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

 

[ATP]

a Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity being tortured in hell?
b If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?
c If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)
d And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

a. God doesn't torture sinners. They torture themselves by not accepting the free gift of salvation
b. He did pay it by boring all of our sins from beginning to end inside his body.
c. The wicked receive eternal punishment, not eternal life. Matt 25:46. Life is only granted through Jesus Christ.
d. However, Jesus did pay that price. It is finished. By denying the free gift of salvation you are telling Jesus that you do not want to live with him. The only other option is separation from Him, hell.

 

[brakelite]

a. God doesn't torture sinners. They torture themselves by not accepting the free gift of salvation
b. He did pay it by boring all of our sins from beginning to end inside his body.
c. The wicked receive eternal punishment, not eternal life. Matt 25:46. Life is only granted through Jesus Christ.
d. However, Jesus did pay that price. It is finished. By denying the free gift of salvation you are telling Jesus that you do not want to live with him. The only other option is separation from Him, hell.

a. Exactly. God does not torture sinners. Yet the majority of churches teach that He does indeed delioberately and with full intent and premeditated foresight torture sinners.Why? Because they believe, wrongly I stress, that God, because man in his sinful state is mortal and therefore subject to death, must give life as a gift to the sinner also in order for the sinner to suffer interminably in hell. This gift must be constantly re-applied to the sinner to keep him suffering, and not allow him to cease to live. Thus both sinner and saint alike receive eternal life despite the clear teachings of the scripture...for the saint to live in peace and joy...for
the sinner to live in agony.

b. Doesn't answer the question. Yes, Jesus bore our sins. But to what end???? Death? Or eternal hell? Be honest now. What do the scriptures teach?

c. Agree again. Yet the church does not teach this, and neither do you. Death is the punishment. And because there is no resurrection nor hope for one, it is eternal. What the scripture does NOT teach is that the sinner eceives eternal punishing. Ongoing never ending constant punishing. Yes, the Bible teaches that the devil and the sinner are tormented day and night forever and ever...but you need to find out what the Hebrew means by forever and ever. Does it mean eternal...or does it mean until life is exinct? Look up other instances where the expression is used, and tell me what you find. You could start with Philemon 15, Jude 7, Exodus 21:6, 1 Sam 21:2.

d. The wages of sin is death....the soul that sinneth it shall die....to believe otherwise is to believe God gives eternal life to everyone, but simply gives the sinner a different address.

 

[ATP]

b. Doesn't answer the question. Yes, Jesus bore our sins. But to what end???? Death? Or eternal hell? Be honest now. What do the scriptures teach?

c. Agree again. Yet the church does not teach this, and neither do you. Death is the punishment. And because there is no resurrection nor hope for one, it is eternal. What the scripture does NOT teach is that the sinner eceives eternal punishing. Ongoing never ending constant punishing. Yes, the Bible teaches that the devil and the sinner are tormented day and night forever and ever...but you need to find out what the Hebrew means by forever and ever. Does it mean eternal...or does it mean until life is exinct? Look up other instances where the expression is used, and tell me what you find. You could start with Philemon 15, Jude 7, Exodus 21:6, 1 Sam 21:2.

d. The wages of sin is death....the soul that sinneth it shall die....to believe otherwise is to believe God gives eternal life to everyone, but simply gives the sinner a different address.

b. Jesus conquered hell. Why would He spend eternity there.
c. Ceasing to exist is not the punishment. Rev 20:12-13 says the nonbelievers are judged. Why judge something if they will cease to exist. And forever and ever means just that, there is no mystery behind it. Lastly, Mark 9:42-48 is final proof that hell is eternal.
d. Ceasing to exist is not punishment and being judged. They shall die physically, but their spirt faces the punishment and judgment at the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire.

 

[brakelite]

b. Jesus conquered hell. Why would He spend eternity there.
c. Ceasing to exist is not the punishment. Rev 20:12-13 says the nonbelievers are judged. Why judge something if they will cease to exist. And forever and ever means just that, there is no mystery behind it. Lastly, Mark 9:42-48 is final proof that hell is eternal.
d. Ceasing to exist is not punishment and being judged. They shall die physically, but their spirt faces the punishment and judgment at the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire.

My points again which you are yet to answer....
a. According to popular teaching, Jesus did not make a propitation for our sins, if indeed eternal torment is the wages of sin.
b. Jesus conquered the grave (sheol, commonly translated as hell but meaning grave), and He conquered death...He did not go to a place of eternal torment.
c. Death is the punishment. Ceasing to exist is the result. Let me ask you. How can anyone live in any form when seperated from the only entity that provides life?
d. Man is mortal. Eternal life is a gift given only to the saved. To claim otherwise is to completely deny Biblical truth.

Here is a quote from the great Amos Phelps:
This doctrine (the immortality of the soul) can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, a pagan philosophy, a superstitious idolatry to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels in paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology..."Ye shall not surely die". (Genesis 3:4)

The following verses are just a small fraction of the total number which vividly and accurately describe the ultimate fate of the wicked.

They shall be destroyed...Psalm 145:20;101:8;37:38;92:7;Prov.13:13;10:29;Phill.3:19;1 Tim.6:9; 2 Thess.1:9; Matt 7:13

They shall persish....Ps.37:20;Prov. 19:9; Luke 13:3; Jn 3:16.

They shall cease to exist. Psalm 37:10