1John 3:5-6

[haz]

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
1 John 5:18-21

I find these verses relevant to the OP...especially verse 18

Amen.

As 1John 5:18 says, we do "not sin". God protects us so that the evil one does not touch us.

Rev 12:9-11
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Satan, the accuser cannot charge anyone with sin once they become a Christian.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[justaname]

I am certain through through all of this we can still do what is not loving.

Being the greatest commandment is to love God, all of us are to live out this principle. I feel we all fall short our task in this...we only know of One who always did what was pleasing to the Father. Here we are admonished to "put in the new man" to "walk in the Spirit".

I do not agree with spiritualizing all the Scriptures as to say we "do not sin." I can agree we are no longer under the Law, yet we are held to the Royal Law, the Law of Christ. In such we know he who practices righteousness is righteous.

 

[Axehead]

Satan, the accuser cannot charge anyone with sin once they become a Christian.

You have to balance scripture with scripture, Haz. Romans 8:33 is a great verse, but keep it in context.

Paul, says "don't give place to the Devil". Obviously, a Christian can give place to the Devil. The Holy Spirit commands us to be renewed in the spirit of our mind, put off the conversation (ways) of the old man, put away lying, speak truth to every man, etc, etc., and do not give place to the Devil. The implication is that some were doing this and Christians can do these things, too. These things (sin) give place to the Devil.

Eph_4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph_4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph_4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph_4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph_4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph_4:27 Neither give place to the devil.


And what makes one a Christian? Is it a one time deal?

Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar_12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar_12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Other commandments are not greater than these, so they are not nullified. However, if one loves God with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves, they will not sin.

If you are looking to the law and the prophets and striving to obey these, Jesus says they all hang on the two greatest commandments (not the two only commandments).

Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


It doesn't matter if you keep all the commandments if you don't keep these two. "Good" men in this world don't necessarily love Jesus Christ or know Him, but many call themselves "Christians".

The question is: What is necessary in a person's life to truly keep these two commandments? What is a Christian? Paul tells us we have to "continue therein and not be a forgetful hearer", so obviously nothing is automatic.
Jas_1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

We deceive our ownselves if we are just a hearer of the word and not a doer.

Again, more directives and commands from the Holy Spirit (below).


Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom_13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom_13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

All of the commands, directives, admonishments, and corrections in the NT are practical outworking and actions of loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. Fulfill these two, and you will fulfill the over 1100, commands, directives, admonishments, and corrections that the Holy Spirit penned through men.

Axehead

 

[haz]

we are admonished to "put in the new man" to "walk in the Spirit".

I do not agree with spiritualizing all the Scriptures as to say we "do not sin." I can agree we are no longer under the Law, yet we are held to the Royal Law, the Law of Christ. In such we know he who practices righteousness is righteous.

To "put on the new man", to "walk in the Spirit" is to believe on Jesus.

1John 5:18 says we do not sin. To claim otherwise is to overlook what Christ's sacrifice has done for us.
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him

And to "practice" righteousness is to believe on Jesus (where our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5).

The alternative way to "practice" righteousness is to be under the law (which Christians are not under, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18) and to attain perfect obedience to the whole law. Without that perfect obedience then those under the law failing to attain this perfect obedience are guilty of all the law, James 2:10. Such are workers of iniquity, and are condemned as the law requires.

I don't know if any Christians here are proposing that "practicing" righteousness can mean some less than perfect level of obedience to the law. If so then such claims should be supported with scripture detailing what lessor level of obedience is acceptable. Without such details then any such doctrine is ambiguous and not of God who has always been specific about His gospel.

Paul, says "don't give place to the Devil". Obviously, a Christian can give place to the Devil. The Holy Spirit commands us to be renewed in the spirit of our mind, put off the conversation (ways) of the old man, put away lying, speak truth to every man, etc, etc., and do not give place to the Devil. The implication is that some were doing this and Christians can do these things, too. These things (sin) give place to the Devil.

Eph_4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph_4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph_4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph_4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph_4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph_4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

I realize that your focus is upon physical behavior. And I agree that Christians generally do improve in behavior upon receiving Christ. We also all admit that we're not perfect in behavior.
But to focus so much upon the physical whilst overlooking the main spiritual message is unhelpful for one's understanding.

To give place to the devil is to be in unbelief. The lusts of the flesh is to be reject righteousness by faith/rejecting Christ.
To be renewed in the spirit of the mind is a call to salvation, to repent of dead works of self-righteousness and to submit to God's righteousness, believing on Jesus.

Christians are fighting the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12-14), believing on Jesus. We should all be encouraging one another in believing on Jesus. This is speaking the truth to one another. Christians put away their former lying as unbelievers when the rejected that Jesus is the Christ (1John 2:22).

The question is: What is necessary in a person's life to truly keep these two commandments? What is a Christian? Paul tells us we have to "continue therein and not be a forgetful hearer", so obviously nothing is automatic.

Jas_1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

We deceive our ownselves if we are just a hearer of the word and not a doer.

As I said before, the doer of the word is he who continues to believe on Jesus.
Jesus said that the works we are to do is to believe on him, John 6:29.
This is that good fight of faith Paul spoke of in 1Tim6:12.

The forgetful hearer is he who receives Christ, and righteousness by faith, BUT then forgets what he had in Christ and turns back to dead works of self righteousness through deeds of the law.

Gal 2:18
if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner

Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

Again, more directives and commands from the Holy Spirit (below).

Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom_13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom_13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

To be in the flesh is to be in unbelief, seeking to establish your own righteousness.
The works of darkness is likewise unbelief and dead works of self righteousness.

I'm short of time here but if you're interested I could provide many scriptures confirming this.

 

[Axehead]

To "put on the new man", to "walk in the Spirit" is to believe on Jesus.

1John 5:18 says we do not sin. To claim otherwise is to overlook what Christ's sacrifice has done for us.
We know that whoever is born of God does[/size] not sin[/size]; but he who has been born of God keeps himself,[/size] and the wicked one does not touch him[/size]

And to "practice" righteousness is to believe on Jesus (where our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5).

The alternative way to "practice" righteousness is to be under the law (which Christians are not under, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18) and to attain perfect obedience to the whole law. Without that perfect obedience then those under the law failing to attain this perfect obedience are guilty of all the law, James 2:10. Such are workers of iniquity, and are condemned as the law requires.

I don't know if any Christians here are proposing that "practicing" righteousness can mean some less than perfect level of obedience to the law. If so then such claims should be supported with scripture detailing what lessor level of obedience is acceptable. Without such details then any such doctrine is ambiguous and not of God who has always been specific about His gospel.

I realize that your focus is upon physical behavior. And I agree that Christians generally do improve in behavior upon receiving Christ. We also all admit that we're not perfect in behavior.
But to focus so much upon the physical whilst overlooking the main spiritual message is unhelpful for one's understanding.

To give place to the devil is to be in unbelief. The lusts of the flesh is to be reject righteousness by faith/rejecting Christ.
To be renewed in the spirit of the mind is a call to salvation, to repent of dead works of self-righteousness and to submit to God's righteousness, believing on Jesus.

Christians are fighting the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12-14), believing on Jesus. We should all be encouraging one another in believing on Jesus. This is speaking the truth to one another. Christians put away their former lying as unbelievers when the rejected that Jesus is the Christ (1John 2:22).

As I said before, the doer of the word is he who continues to believe on Jesus.
Jesus said that the works we are to do is to believe on him, John 6:29.
This is that good fight of faith Paul spoke of in 1Tim6:12.

The forgetful hearer is he who receives Christ, and righteousness by faith, BUT then forgets what he had in Christ and turns back to dead works of self righteousness through deeds of the law.

Gal 2:18
if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), [/size]I make myself [/size]a transgressor/Sinner[/size]

Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who [/size]attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace[/size]

To be in the flesh is to be in unbelief, seeking to establish your own righteousness.
The works of darkness is likewise unbelief and dead works of self righteousness.

I'm short of time here but if you're interested I could provide many scriptures confirming this.

Not a problem, Haz. I read your other posts and I think we are in general agreement.

Have a blessed weekend.

Axehead

Sanctification is to make holy.
To be holy is to be set apart for God's purpose.

Are we not made holy upon belief and the Indwelling of the Spirit?
What can man do to make himself holy? Are we to work to make ourselves more holy than the Spirit makes us?

Just an fyi...I have spoken about the sanctification process...now I am rethinking my position and choice of wording.

Hi justaname,

Sorry, I missed this one. And, in another one of your posts I absolutely agree that we should not spiritualize all sin as "spiritual sins".

When Christ arose from the dead we where risen with Him.

But, before you were saved it wasn't real it was potential.. Now that we are free, we have the potential to put ourselves into God hands, we have the potential to do His will if we so choose...Nothing is automatic.

Now that you are saved we must get to know something.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom_6:6)

Then we must reckon

"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom_6:11)

Then we must consecrate ourselves to God.

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God" (Rom_6:13)

To those who would enter upon the work of consecration, God will make demand after demand until the self-life is exhausted. (Conforming to the image of Christ).

Union with God - is the union of the human will with God's will - it is not the extinction of the human will. A will, a proper and effective will, is essential to humanity. Man without a will ceases to be man.

The sanctification of man’s nature does not consist in the extinction of his will, but in its union with God’s will.

John_8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The "I" of Jesus was not obliterated, He chose to bring His will into harmony with His Father's and so must we.

Luke_22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Again, Jesus refers to "his will" while laying more importance on His Father's will.

Our wills are not obliterated and we must choose daily to "do His will". When we don't do His will it is sin.

It is not enough for us just to know that by our union with Christ in His death upon the Cross we have been freed from the dominion of sin. That freedom is only potential, it must be experienced in our daily walk.

Axehead

 

[justaname]

What I am coming to understand is an unstained, without blemish or spot, "new man" that is perceived by God through the blood of Christ and faith in the redeeming power of such. This "new man" needs not to work for salvation as is told in Scripture for it is a gift to be received by faith. This "new man" must be completely surrendered to the saving grace provided by God through His Son Jesus Christ. In this we can not sin.

The "new man" is evident to God yet is not necessarily evident to the world or even ourselves. Even though we are born again we are admonished to shun evil, avoid sin, not giving place to the devil. Here we can grieve the Holy Spirit though our thoughts, words, and actions. Here we need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds making an outward change that reflects the inward change. In this we can be unloving to the Father or others which is no condition for the Christian to be in, and must be repented. Without the reflection of the "new man" in the world, one must question the existence of the "new man" altogether. Here sin is a very real thing still being struggled against.

 

[heretoeternity]

It seems some are saying christians are not bound by the royal law of God the ten commandments..therefore I guess what they are saying it is okay to steal, ok to take the name of God in vain etc...hmmm what kind of theology is this? Satan is hard at work here deceiving these people..

Remember salvation is through the Son of God, His grace and commandments, and NOT the sun god/satan and his days of dec 25th, sunday and easter all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

 

[haz]

It seems some are saying christians are not bound by the royal law of God the ten commandments..therefore I guess what they are saying it is okay to steal, ok to take the name of God in vain etc...hmmm what kind of theology is this? Satan is hard at work here deceiving these people..

Remember salvation is through the Son of God, His grace and commandments, and NOT the sun god/satan and his days of dec 25th, sunday and easter all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

Actually it's God's word that says we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Gal 3:12 evens tells us that the law is not of faith.

Your allegation that this therefore means that it's ok to do wrong is a common point made by legalists who seek to lure Christians back under the law for righteousness by works.

We simply cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

However, as our guide to behavior, Christians love one another (1John 3:23). And this includes forgiving 7x70 should someone do wrong as none of us is perfect in physical behavior.

But regarding the legalists who seek to lure us back under the law for self-righteousness by works, Jesus said:
Matt 16:6-12
Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”
8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? 11 How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[heretoeternity]

So if you are not under the law, then you are not God's people, as the Bible says, because He writes His laws on the hearts and minds, of His people..so we can automatically follow His law...if you do not want to follow Gods law then, your salvation is definitely a non existent belief..from satan would be the correct answer....Jer 31 Hebrews 8 and 10...

Remember salvation is through the Son of God. His grace and commandments and not the sun god/satan and his days of dec 25th, sunday and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

 

[haz]

So if you are not under the law, then you are not God's people, as the Bible says, because He writes His laws on the hearts and minds, of His people..so we can automatically follow His law...if you do not want to follow Gods law then, your salvation is definitely a non existent belief..from satan would be the correct answer....Jer 31 Hebrews 8 and 10...

Remember that "leaven" refers to the doctrine of legalists arguing for righteousness by works of the law, Matt 16:12.

Matt 16:6
Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

Note also the warning about leaven in Gal 5:9 .
A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Just a little leaven (the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law) can leaven the whole lump. Hence we should beware of the leaven of legalists, as Jesus warned.

And note also the warning in 1Cor 5:7
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us

Consider also how "leaven" in 1Cor 5:7 supports the sexual immorality spoken of in 1Cor 5:1
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!

What is this sexual immorality?
Remember Christians are married to Christ (Eph 5:32) we're one spirit with the Lord (1Cor 6:17).
And remember that scripture is spiritually discerned (1Cor 2:14).
Hence we see that 1Cor 5:1 refers to spiritual sexual immorality.

Who is the father referred to in 1Cor 5:1?
It's the devil, as Jesus described of the legalists in his day.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

And who is the wife of the legalists father/the devil?
It's Hagar, who is symbolic for the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law.
Gal 4:21-24
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar

Legalists should repent of their dead works of self-righteousness through the law. To continue pushing the law for righteousness is, as described in 1Cor 5:1, to be in spiritual sexual immorality with the wife of their father, the devil.

Legalists had better purge out the old leaven (the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law) before it's too late and there is no more opportunity for repentance (Heb 12:12-14, Heb 6:4-6).

 

[heretoeternity]

"For this is the love of God that we keep His commandment and they are not burdensome" 1st John5...pretty simple language, don't you think? But you seem to be confused between the Mosaic law and God's law...you need to study Leviticus and get a grip on this point..it is fine to cut and paste and repeat a bunch of non relevant scriptures to the discussion, but they mean nothing in the context of which they are used.

Remember salvation is through the Son of God, His grace and commandments, and not the sungod/satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

 

[Axehead]

Hey brother Haz,

Just a quick message to you as I have some things to attend to. I see what you are saying now and am in agreement with you. I do have some questions (more for clarification than anything else).

Will talk later,

Axehead

 

[haz]

"For this is the love of God that we keep His commandment and they are not burdensome" 1st John5...pretty simple language, don't you think? But you seem to be confused between the Mosaic law and God's law...you need to study Leviticus and get a grip on this point..it is fine to cut and paste and repeat a bunch of non relevant scriptures to the discussion, but they mean nothing in the context of which they are used.

Note 1John 5:1-5 that you refer to about commandments.
Did you notice that it refers to the commandment to believe on Jesus?

1John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
1John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God

Note also 1John 3:22,23
we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Clearly the constant theme in 1John on commandments is to believe on Jesus (just as that thief on the cross did, who did no works of the law).

Therefore we should not suddenly take a leap and start mixing works of the law with this. Works of the law is not mentioned in 1John 5 as you suggest.

We simply cannot mix works of the law, with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The law is not of faith, Gal 3:12

Also, you incorrectly try to split the law up.
Hence you judge ones righteousness by whether they can keep the 10 commandments perfectly. This is the legalism that scripture so often warns against.

Consider how the 10 commandments are part of the law that is done away with.
2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (the 10 commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

You should take heed of the warning Jesus gave in Matt 16:6
Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

Note also the warning about leaven (doctrine of righteousness by works of the law) in Gal 5:9 .
A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

[Axehead]

One thing that I have a problem with is your "spiritually discerned" interpretation of 1 Cor._5:1.

1Co_5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Notice, his comparing and contrasting with the Gentiles (pagans). We know the Gentiles are not spiritual so Paul is definitely speaking about physical fornication between son and step-mother (incest) otherwise, he would not have said that "even the Gentiles don't do this". If this had just been a case of common adultery, Paul would never have said, "and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles", because adultery is probably common, everywhere. However, incest was not common and obviously quite monstrous.


Paul goes on to say that they are puffed up and have not mourned.and their glorying is not good. (Their condoning of the sin is not good).
1Co_5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co_5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Don't think they were glorying in the sin, itself, they were actually ignoring the leaven (sin) and proud of their tolerance of the sin and their grand ability not to "judge".

One other thing (as scripture explains scripture), there is no other occurrence where incest is likened to Hagar. Hagar in the physical was not involved in incestuous relations and thus there is no parallel in the spiritual for this. Hagar was not even involved in an adulterous situation, so I think you interpretation of 1 Cor 5:1 is not correct.

Even in Romans 7, one is either married to the Law or married to Christ.

If you go back under the law you are "fallen from grace". Doesn't say you are fornicating with Hagar.

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

What we see in the scriptures is that:

• Christ shall profit you nothing
• Fallen from Grace
• you become entangled again with the yoke of bondage
• Christ is become of not effect to you
• the preaching of circumcision takes away the offence of the cross
• use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh (but by love serve one another. Implicit in this statement is don't take advantage of one another).
• The flesh lusteth against the spirit
• They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

When you read Gal 5:19 (the works of the flesh), some of these are spiritual manifestations and some of these are physical in their manifestation. Of course all sin starts in the heart.
Is Paul preaching works here over grace? I think not. He is cautioning against activity that will cause the church to bite and devour one another. He is cautioning against activity that is the opposite of serving one another through love).

Let me list the works of the flesh which are "manifest", again.


Gal_5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest (are evident, open to sight so that all can plainly see), which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I have never read this as Paul instructing the church to go back under the law and perform works. As a matter of fact your whole issue with false doctrine is covered when Paul mentions "heresies".

I know you quote Rev_18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

We know when wine is spoken of in this context it refers to false doctrine, heresies and deception. But, in Galatians, "heresies" are listed separate from drunkenness. Even though we know that False Prophets are murdering people through heresies (drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication), murders are also listed separately.

So, if I have it right, your whole premise for being saved is "only believe" and there are no conditions whatsoever for walking with Christ and hearing the words, "Well done thou good and faithful servant", except that we do not fall into unbelief and turn away from Christ.


Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


I think it is important to tell people that any sin is deceitful and continual sowing to the flesh can harden your heart.

Are there conditions for walking with Christ? Yes
Can we add to His sacrifice? No.


Axehead

 

[haz]

One thing that I have a problem with is your "spiritually discerned" interpretation of 1 Cor._5:1.

1Co_5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Notice, his comparing and contrasting with the Gentiles (pagans). We know the Gentiles are not spiritual so Paul is definitely speaking about physical fornication between son and step-mother (incest) otherwise, he would not have said that "even the Gentiles don't do this". If this had just been a case of common adultery, Paul would never have said, "and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles", because adultery is probably common, everywhere. However, incest was not common and obviously quite monstrous.

Consider that we Christians are spiritual.
We are also the true Jews.
Rom 2:28,29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gentiles, on the other hand, are physical. Gentiles are non-believers, which includes physical Jews who reject the gospel.

Hence I find there is no problem with the understanding that 1Cor 5:1 refers to spiritual sexual immorality.
Paul is stating in 1Cor 5:1 that in the physical realm which non-Christians belong to, these Gentiles do not glory in incest with their father's wife.
But yet we see some within the spiritual realm (Christians) indulging in incest with their father's (the devil, as to turn back to works of the law for righteousness is then unbelief in Jesus) wife (Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

So remember that Gentiles (non-Christians) are merely physical. We see them here in 1Cor 5:1 as merely a parallel of what is also seen in the spiritual realm.

Christians (the church), however, are spiritual, hence we look in terms of our spiritual relationships with the Lord (1Cor 6:17).

So we see Paul, in 1Cor 5:1, referring to spiritual sexual immorality where those who profess to be Christians are into spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24). And this is consistent with the many other scriptures warning against mixing works of the law, with grace.

I'm short of time so I'll get back to answering the rest of your post later.

Paul goes on to say that they are puffed up and have not mourned.and their glorying is not good. (Their condoning of the sin is not good).
1Co_5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co_5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Don't think they were glorying in the sin, itself, they were actually ignoring the leaven (sin) and proud of their tolerance of the sin and their grand ability not to "judge".

One other thing (as scripture explains scripture), there is no other occurrence where incest is likened to Hagar. Hagar in the physical was not involved in incestuous relations and thus there is no parallel in the spiritual for this. Hagar was not even involved in an adulterous situation, so I think you interpretation of 1 Cor 5:1 is not correct.

Even in Romans 7, one is either married to the Law or married to Christ.

I've never heard of anyone in the physical, glorying and being puffed up about physical incest with their father's wife. Thus I find it incompatible to suggest 1Cor 5:1 refers to physical incest.

But being puffed up and glorying is certainly compatible with the holier than thou hypocrites who glory in their own righteousness under the law.
Luke 18:9-12
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.

Gal 4:24 tells us that Hagar is symbolic of the old covenant. If a Christian turns back to the law mixing works of the law with grace then it's clear that they are into spiritual sexual immorality. Christians are one spirit with the Lord. We're under the ministry of the spirit and righteousness (2Cor 3:7-11). For any Christians to mix this with the ministry of condemnation/death is to be lukewarm, which is sexual immorality.

Rom 7 speaks of having been married to the law but now being dead to it and being free to marry Christ. So we see that we cannot mix works of the law, with grace.
Rom 11;6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

When you read Gal 5:19 (the works of the flesh), some of these are spiritual manifestations and some of these are physical in their manifestation. Of course all sin starts in the heart.
Is Paul preaching works here over grace? I think not. He is cautioning against activity that will cause the church to bite and devour one another. He is cautioning against activity that is the opposite of serving one another through love).

Let me list the works of the flesh which are "manifest", again.


Gal_5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest (are evident, open to sight so that all can plainly see), which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I have never read this as Paul instructing the church to go back under the law and perform works. As a matter of fact your whole issue with false doctrine is covered when Paul mentions "heresies".

I know you quote Rev_18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

We know when wine is spoken of in this context it refers to false doctrine, heresies and deception. But, in Galatians, "heresies" are listed separate from drunkenness. Even though we know that False Prophets are murdering people through heresies (drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication), murders are also listed separately.

Gal 5:19-21 is all spiritual, describing the same sin in different ways. Even murdering is spiritual.

We see various physical and spiritual parallels in scripture.

The first man Adam (physical) and the 2nd Adam (Christ).
Cain (physical) and Abel (spiritual)
Esau (physical) and Jacob (spiritual).

The physical seeks to murder/kill the spiritual.
For example Cain murdered Abel.


Each of us has this battle going on within us. We're fighting the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12)
Yet within us the flesh seeks to kill the spirit, just as Cain murdered Abel.
Gal 5:12
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another

But we Christians, who are led by the spirit, have, through believing on Jesus, put the flesh under subjection. That thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" had put the flesh under subjection and was led by the spirit.

So, if I have it right, your whole premise for being saved is "only believe" and there are no conditions whatsoever for walking with Christ and hearing the words, "Well done thou good and faithful servant", except that we do not fall into unbelief and turn away from Christ.



Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


I think it is important to tell people that any sin is deceitful and continual sowing to the flesh can harden your heart.

Are there conditions for walking with Christ? Yes
Can we add to His sacrifice? No.


Axehead

Yes, it's all about believing on Jesus.
And the deceitfulness of sin that we need to be wary of is turning back to works of the law to determine righteousness (spiritual sexual immorality).

Christians keep his commandments which are to believe on Jesus and to love one another. 1John 3:23.

To believe on Jesus we're saved by grace and our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

To love one another we do no ill to another and when one does slip up (and none of us is physically perfect) we show the same grace/love to others as God showed us, thus we forgive 7x70. When we love one another we also preach the gospel of the kingdom (letting our light shine Matt 5) to the lost who are spiritually naked, hungry, sick, in prison, and strangers from the covenants of promise (Matt 25). Thus we see that to love one another confirms that we truly believe on Jesus.

 

[Michael Snow]

I John: Who Are “They”?


The First Epistle of John vividly illustrates the key role that context commands as we seek to understand the text. Those Christians to whom John wrote knew, first hand, that context. For us, understanding requires a little homework.

Our first step, in the study of any of the epistles, should be to read the whole letter through. As we do that in 1 John, we come to the key clue, which clarifies the context, “They went out from us…”(2:19). . . . cont. here: http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/i-john-who-are-they-4/

 

[brakelite]

@Axehead; @justaname...my commendations to you both for clear perceptive and mature explanations of your perspectives on this thorny topic. Though you both may on some points dsagree with one another, yet you have brought to the conversation much depth and understanding. @Haz, I recognize your perspective and writing style as that of a contributor I conversed with on many occasions some time ago on another forum, only you wrote then under another moniker. You haven't changed much your stance...I agree with Axehead that spiritualizing sin every time it is mentioned in the NT is inappropriate. I would add that those who advocate obedience to God's moral commandments are not all necessarily advocating such as a means by which one would attain salvation or in order to be justified. In all my previous conversations with you, and it appears in this current conversation, you continue to deny even the possibility of obedience being a necessary and essential result of our having been justified. You are correct in one thing...our obedience is not a measure of the righteousness we have in Christ...the eternal Father measures our righteousness according to the righteousness of Christ, not on our performance.

 

[haz]

. @Haz, I recognize your perspective and writing style as that of a contributor I conversed with on many occasions some time ago on another forum, only you wrote then under another moniker. You haven't changed much your stance...I agree with Axehead that spiritualizing sin every time it is mentioned in the NT is inappropriate. I would add that those who advocate obedience to God's moral commandments are not all necessarily advocating such as a means by which one would attain salvation or in order to be justified. In all my previous conversations with you, and it appears in this current conversation, you continue to deny even the possibility of obedience being a necessary and essential result of our having been justified. You are correct in one thing...our obedience is not a measure of the righteousness we have in Christ...the eternal Father measures our righteousness according to the righteousness of Christ, not on our performance.

Hi brakelite,

Yes, you are correct I have a different name at another forum. From memory that forum might have been one of the first I registered with, but since then I had settled on the name Haz, which I have registered with on various other forums.

If you recall from our previous debates I would have confirmed from scripture how "spiritualizing" sin (as you put it) is correct. After all how do we as Christians see ourselves? Do you see yourself as the new creation whose life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3), remembering that in Christ there is no sin (1John 3:5)? Or do you see yourself as the sinful physical man who is charged with sin\transgression of the law\unrighteousness because of failure to perfectly obey the law (which Christians are not even under anyway)?

If I recall correctly, you are an Adventist from NZ who is always arguing for keeping the Sabbath and claiming that without us attaining some minimum ambiguous standard of obedience to the law then we are not Christians as we do not have the "imparted" righteousness to show for it.

BTW, Christians are obedient. We keep his commandments, 1John 3:23.
Commandment 1: Believe on Jesus.
Commandment 2: Love one another. And love does no ill to another. Love also forgives 7x70, which we all need considering our physical failures, weaknesses, etc. Hence as Christians we show the same love\grace to others as God showed us.

I see you're an Advanced member here too. I guess we've always missed each other whenever joining in on forum discussions here.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Guys,

I owe Haz a reply, but will be away for another 3 days camping and fishing with my boys.

Axehead

 

[Ruth]

Okay, I'll chime in. I recently handed it all over to Christ in the last few months so I can give BAC perspective. If you truly want to live and walk in Christ, you don't want to sin and you make the largest effort to avoid it. You bite your tongue when ill hits your lips. You cast out impure thoughts. You love the sinner and hate the sin. You make an effort. It doesn't come naturally at first to not sin. But you get very close. I'm sure in time you can be pretty close to sinless but your whole life has to change. You still slip up because the devil does not want you to follow Christ. I have personally felt that battle. God wanted me back and the devil knew it was bad news he lost me... And to bad so sad, he lost me and God won me back and brought me home. As a BAC you have to be very aware of the dangers of evil trying to get you to fall back but God will not let that happened if you truly walk with Him. It's a tough battle to go through but so worth it.

Thank you for being so honest, and your testamony.

Jesus tells us few of us will enter the kingdom of God. For even though we have met christ and believed many of us still submit to the desires of this world, and not the desires of Gods holiness.

Rev. 3

14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning[e] of God’s new creation:

15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! 16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! 17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19 I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.

20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

22 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.”