I understand that there are those that believe Jesus was resurrected with a human body but I truly believe the scriptures such as 1 Peter 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:44,45 to name a few are not in agreement with that.
1Peter 3:18
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I understand that there are those that believe Jesus was resurrected with a human body but I truly believe the scriptures such as 1 Peter 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:44,45 to name a few are not in agreement with that.
With Moses, there was no intent to deceive, only that his body was buried in an unknown grave. We also know that Satan disputed with an angel over Moses' body.
But I have the same problem with this as before. You are essentially saying that God presented the disciples with a false and contrived scenerio for the purpose of deceiving them into thinking Jesus was physically resurrected, so that they would believe He was resurrected at all.
Did God really have to lie to get His point across? Couldn't Jesus have simply appeared to them in the tomb, next to His lifeless body, yet standing there alive, for instance? Something that doesn't involve deception? Even doubling down on it later, touch me, I'm not a spirit, I have a body, touch Me and see, flesh, bones, a body, not a spirit,
Why would Jesus take such pains to be so deceptive?
Much love!
Personally, I don't think either of these passages negate the other, each are true, and a correct understanding will hold all to be exactly true.
Much love!
I believe you're the one deceiving people because you're denying 1 Corinthians 15:45 and 1 Peter 3:18 that clearly show that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. Jesus sacrificed his human body, willingly he didn't take that sacrifice back. Jesus said: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.” (John 6:51, 54, 55) How could we eat Jesus’ flesh and drink his blood in order to have everlasting life and at the same time Jesus himself have the flesh and blood themselves in which to live in heaven? I understand that there are clergymen who insist that Jesus has his human body in heaven and they teach that he is also God himself, so that means we know what God looks like. He looks like Jesus when down on earth; he is possibly six feet tall, has a Jewish nose, possibly a beard, has man’s sex organs, and seems to weigh two hundred pounds or around a hundred kilograms. He is maybe like the painting by the Italian Michelangelo of the Last Judgment in the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican. But in the scriptures, Jesus told the Jews: “The Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape [morphé].” (John 5:37) The apostle John also said to Christians: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2) John’s words would not be true if Jesus had his human body with him in heaven, for then we would know what Christians will be like in heaven after their resurrection from the dead. There's too many Scriptures that disagree with people that say Jesus was resurrected with a human body.
If the disciples clearly knew that Jesus had been a living spirit before he was born, they would have no confusion about Jesus being alive again as it relates to his new body. If after resurrecting he had a spirit body and manifested like the angels of old, his disciples would have understood that very well. The physical body with which Jesus presented himself after being resurrected was a matter that had nothing to do with what was really the new body that he had. The issue was: was he alive again or not? For them to be convinced of this, Jesus necessarily had to appear to them with a visible body... and that was nothing new for a Jew: a spirit appearing with human body.
It is probable that there were conversations among the new non-Jewish Christians (at least in Corinth) about what kind of body those who are going to be resurrected to live in heaven with the spirits, have. In 1 Cor. 15 Paul gave a very timely explanation to clear all kinds of doubts about the type of body that those who would go to heaven would have. After that clarification, no new Christian who read that letter would have any confusion about it. It is obvious that Paul knew very well that in heaven Jesus was no longer living in a body of flesh, although he did appear that way a few occasions. He, Paul, had a vision of Jesus that blinded him, and he hardly saw the brightness of his glory (1 Tim. 6:14-16).
The simplest explanation for these supposed contradictions is that Jesus now lives with a spirit body, but he appeared in the flesh before ascending so that his disciples could see him and make sure that he had come back to life.
It is probable that there were conversations among the new non-Jewish Christians (at least in Corinth) about what kind of body those who are going to be resurrected to live in heaven with the spirits, have. In 1 Cor. 15 Paul gave a very timely explanation to clear all kinds of doubts about the type of body that those who would go to heaven would have. After that clarification, no new Christian who read that letter would have any confusion about it. It is obvious that Paul knew very well that in heaven Jesus was no longer living in a body of flesh, although he did appear that way a few occasions. He, Paul, had a vision of Jesus that blinded him, and he hardly saw the brightness of his glory (1 Tim. 6:14-16).
The simplest explanation for these supposed contradictions is that Jesus now lives with a spirit body, but he appeared in the flesh before ascending so that his disciples could see him and make sure that he had come back to life.
If a person believes that Jesus was resurrected with a human body I personally believe those people who believe Jesus was resurrected a human are calling the apostle Paul and Peter liars because those scriptures are very clear that Jesus was resurrected a spirit.
It sounds ridiculous, that the second most important person in the whole universe is reduced up there, to a single less than 2 meters tall body of flesh and bones.
Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
There is a difference in between our bodies now, and in the resurrection. But there is still a body.
1 Peter 3:18 KJV
18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Literally, "made alive to the Spirit". This does not negate those passages that speak of His, and our, resurrection bodies. We need harmony, not negation of those that seem to conflict.
Much love!
I think most Christians do not understand what a spirit body is. A "body" doesn't have to be fleshy.
Angels have bodies, and their bodies are made of spirit, that's why they are invisible.
The word "spirit" translates a Hebrew and a Greek words that mean also "wind". The idea in the word "spirit" is something invisible that moves and you can see the effects somehow. There are bodies that are like that, and they are spirits. Jesus now has a spirit body. There are not fleshy bodies in heaven; those bodies were created to live on earth.
Angels have bodies, and their bodies are made of spirit, that's why they are invisible.
The word "spirit" translates a Hebrew and a Greek words that mean also "wind". The idea in the word "spirit" is something invisible that moves and you can see the effects somehow. There are bodies that are like that, and they are spirits. Jesus now has a spirit body. There are not fleshy bodies in heaven; those bodies were created to live on earth.
I have said that Jesus resurrected a spirit. A spirit has a body but it's a spiritual body. However the spirit body that Jesus was resurrected with isn't in any way a body of flesh. Those bodies of flesh Jesus appeared to his apostles and disciples with were fleshly bodies he materialized, just as the angels in the past materialized fleshly bodies to speak with people such as Abraham. The spiritual body that Jesus was resurrected with no human can see which is why he materialized as a fleshly body to talk to his apostles and disciples. Mark 16:12 shows that Jesus appeared to his apostles and disciples in different forms. Why would Jesus come to his apostles and disciples in different forms if he was raised with the same human form that he had before he was sacrificed.
2 Corinthians 5:16-17 (WEB):
(16) Therefore we know no one after the flesh from now on. Even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.
(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.
(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, Jesus was made "a quickening spirit". So why won't you believe Apostle Paul?
1 Cor 15:45-47
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV
I do believe Paul! What I wrote was in total agreement with what Paul wrote. The last (perfect man) Adam, i.e. Jesus, was made a life-giving spirit being at his resurrection. He is no longer a man. First he was a man, then he was made an immortal spirit being. Jesus sacrificed his human body, and we are to do the same - Romans 12:1 (WEB):
(1) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.
Then at our resurrection we will also be changed and be made spirit beings - 1 Corinthians 15:49-52 (TLV):
(49) And just as we have borne the image of the one made from dust, so also shall we bear the image of the One from heaven.
(50) Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, you have shown you disagree with Paul, because Paul showed that Jesus' body was made "a quickening spirit", as Paul was pointing to the "spiritual body" he was teaching about for the resurrection in that 1 Corinthians 15 chapter. No big deal for you though, you've got a lot of company with those who reject what Apostle Paul taught there.
His body was not transformed from a dead physical flesh and bones body into a spiritual body, any more than our human bodies will be transformed into a spirit being body. Our bodies will disintegrate (dust to dust), and God will give us a completely new spirit body (which is not a physical body):
2 Corinthians 5:1-7 (WEB):
(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
(2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;
(3) if so be that being clothed we will not be found naked.
(4) For indeed we who are in this tent do groan, being burdened; not that we desire to be unclothed, but that we desire to be clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
(5) Now he who made us for this very thing is God, who also gave to us the down payment of the Spirit.
(6) Therefore we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord;
(7) for we walk by faith, not by sight.
1 Corinthians 15:37-44 (WEB):
(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.
(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
(39) All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
(40) There are also celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial.
(41) There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable.
(43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus' flesh body was changed to "a quickening spirit" type body like Apostle Paul showed. That is why His flesh body was NEVER found!
It was sort of both then, wasn’t it? If Jesus was raised just a spirit, human eyes wouldn’t be able to see him and touch His hands. And if it was just a human body, He wouldn’t appear to them in a room without opening a door and entering.
And there was something different enough that the woman at the tomb who knew Him did not recognize Him at first.
And Paul said, we will put on a new body and will not be spirits with no bodies. But elsewhere didn’t he also say we don’t really know what those bodies will be like? I think he did.
When angels went and talked to Abraham and ate with him ... Does that mean they have a kind of "double-body"?
What kind of body angels have?
What kind of body angels have?
Jesus was resurrected with a spirit body but since humans can't see spiritual beings who have spiritual bodies, Jesus materialized fleshly bodies that looked human so that his apostles and disciples could see and touch him. This explains how Jesus was able to appear in a room without opening a door then suddenly disappearing from that room without opening a door.
The reason that Mary didn't recognize Jesus at the tomb is explained at Mark 16:12 it says that Jesus appeared in another form to two of his disciples. So Jesus appeared in different bodies to his apostles and disciples. This explains why Jesus disciples such as Mary didn't recognize him in the body he appeared with. It was the way Jesus said something or the way he did something that they recognized it was Jesus.
You cannot logically make that deduction from the Scriptures. Thomas saw and touched his flesh body after his resurrection (but that was just a similar looking body, not the same one)! The Scripture says:
Psalms 16:10 (WEB):
(10) For you will not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow your holy one to see corruption.
Or as the TLV more precisely translates it:
(10) For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol nor let Your faithful one see the Pit.
Peter refers to that in Act 2 (WEB):
(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.
(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;
(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
It is saying that God will not leave Jesus' dead body to decay. That is why his body was not found in the tomb, because it had either been disintegrated or moved elesewhere to be preserved for eternity (we cannot deduce which - I'd guess his body was dissolved and no longer exists).
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