2,000 Years of Believing a "Lie" Does Not Make it True.

[face2face]

There is a danger with the above post...we can't "quench the Spirit" or "despise prophesying s", but we should "prove all things; hold fast that which is good" which is Pauls advice in 1 Thess 5:19-21.

The danger I see in this forum are many and varied by one which stands out is this Literal reading of the Word which only provides a very shallow faith. The Pharisees (circumcision party) held this view strongly and built their institution on it. Of course it came crashing down when they could not discern the Lords teaching. Catholicism is built on it also and of recent years I have seen this spread to many ecumenical communities such as the knee jerk reaction to theistic evolution is one example which comes to mind.

Hyper Literalism is a destroyer of faith - when a deceiver spreads lies how easy is for an immature mind to take hold and be so quickly shaken of mind?

Countless millions trust in the Roman Catholic Church and invest the spiritual hope in her empty promises.

We need to warn those while we still can.

F2F

 

[Tommy Cool]

Hillary only needed 4 years ....she believes it .....and she was the prime mover and developer of the lie

Hillary Clinton warns of potential Russian election interference in 2024: 'He'll do it again'​

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned of potential election interference in 2024 during an interview with MSNBC host Jen Psaki on Sunday.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Peter told us, that because "there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction." 2 Peter 2:1

Paul told us, that "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

And Paul also told us that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

And yet it is apparent that few have taken any of it serious, not expecting the certainty that what has been taught within the church has been corrupted, but instead act as if it has not and that the foretold "lie" is actually the truth, and therefore there is no need for correction, when it not only should have been expected and necessary on an equally grand scale and should have been taught as such.

To me your post here connects to your other post Godly Sorrow.

Instructions in righteousness which is profitable …one thing that stands out there is it doesn’t say the word of God is profitable in instruction of unrighteousness. To me it means the word of God is profitable in instruction of walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh. One passage that stands out is the one you quoted in the other thread “Godly sorrow” is where Paul tells (instructs) them (the Corinthians) to do what is right, to not do wrong. Even though they appear unto them as reprobates, as ones who fail …Paul is asking them to hear Christ speaking in Him telling (instructing them) to do not what is wrong but to do what is right. If they refuse to hear what Christ is instructing them (as profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness, the man of God being equipped for every good work), if they refuse Christ speaking to them through Paul besieging them “do what is right, do no wrong, be made complete, this we pray even your perfection” —if they reuse and will not hear what the Spirit of God says unto them …then do they not then turn away from Christ speaking in Paul and therefore they will believe a lie …that Christ does not speak in Paul and those brothers whom they accuse as reprobate and as failing. If Christ is in their brothers whom ask them to do no wrong and to do what is right, then it is Christ they refuse to hear and believe refusing instead Christ and going on to do what is wrong. To me Paul is urging them for their profit, instructing them in righteousness. Even Paul saying “this is for Your profit” as well as “My profit in Christ” …hear Him who speaks and do not turn away to believe a lie.

At this point their calling Paul a reprobate, and Christ in him—the Spirit of Grace given unto him— a failure in believing there is no profit …”why should we do what is right Paul when we judge you are the one who does what is wrong” “we shouldn’t do what you instruct Paul but instead you should follow us” …it is them who fit “the lawlessness one working of satan unrighteousness” “deceptive” “among those who perish” “because they did not receive the truth that they be saved” delivered from evil. This fits perfectly with Paul urging them (the Corinthians) to be delivered from evil “do no wrong” …even though you say I’m as one who fails and you want proof of Christ speaking in me… God demonstrated His Love for us in that even though we were yet sinners, He loved us and died for us. …what I hear is regardless of what you say I am, or what you call me …if you Love Christ then demonstrate the love of God (if His love be in you) who even though we yet appear unto you as sinners, Christ loved us and we in His love do not fail.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

To me your post here connects to your other post Godly Sorrow.

Instructions in righteousness which is profitable …one thing that stands out there is it doesn’t say the word of God is profitable in instruction of unrighteousness. To me it means the word of God is profitable in instruction of walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh. One passage that stands out is the one you quoted in the other thread “Godly sorrow” is where Paul tells (instructs) them (the Corinthians) to do what is right, to not do wrong. Even though they appear unto them as reprobates, as ones who fail …Paul is asking them to hear Christ speaking in Him telling (instructing them) to do not what is wrong but to do what is right. If they refuse to hear what Christ is instructing them (as profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness, the man of God being equipped for every good work), if they refuse Christ speaking to them through Paul besieging them “do what is right, do no wrong, be made complete, this we pray even your perfection” —if they reuse and will not hear what the Spirit of God says unto them …then do they not then turn away from Christ speaking in Paul and therefore they will believe a lie …that Christ does not speak in Paul and those brothers whom they accuse as reprobate and as failing. If Christ is in their brothers whom ask them to do no wrong and to do what is right, then it is Christ they refuse to hear and believe refusing instead Christ and going on to do what is wrong. To me Paul is urging them for their profit, instructing them in righteousness. Even Paul saying “this is for Your profit” as well as “My profit in Christ” …hear Him who speaks and do not turn away to believe a lie.

At this point their calling Paul a reprobate, and Christ in him—the Spirit of Grace given unto him— a failure in believing there is no profit …”why should we do what is right Paul when we judge you are the one who does what is wrong” “we shouldn’t do what you instruct Paul but instead you should follow us” …it is them who fit “the lawlessness one working of satan unrighteousness” “deceptive” “among those who perish” “because they did not receive the truth that they be saved” delivered from evil. This fits perfectly with Paul urging them (the Corinthians) to be delivered from evil “do no wrong” …even though you say I’m as one who fails and you want proof of Christ speaking in me… God demonstrated His Love for us in that even though we were yet sinners, He loved us and died for us. …what I hear is regardless of what you say I am, or what you call me …if you Love Christ then demonstrate the love of God (if His love be in you) who even though we yet appear unto you as sinners, Christ loved us and we in His love do not fail.

Ezekiel 3:27 says to them He who hear; let him hear, He who refuses let him refuse. For they are a rebellious house.

Paul in that passage to the Corinthians…he is asking them to hear.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ “do not seal up the Prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong; still be wrong and the one who is filthy; still be filthy. Let the one who does righteousness; still practice (instruction in) righteousness (which is profitable); and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.
“Let the one who does wrong; still be wrong”
In the passage above where Paul instructed them to “do no wrong”…the above gives a choice …let him that does wrong; still be wrong. (Let him who does wrong; still be in error) With your thread maybe it could also be let him who believes a lie; let him still believe a lie. It all comes back to either hearing or not hearing. First He went to the Jews …in Ezekiel it says He went to those who were righteous and that, first, he went to those who should listen. But since they were unwilling to listen…out of rebellion…we now turn to the gentiles.

Interesting difference in Ezekiel and “we now turn to the gentiles” is Eziekiel says “whoever turns a righteous man” James says “he who turns a sinner from error” for one will hardly die for a righteous man though perhaps some will die for a good man…But God demonstrates His Love toward us, in while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

There is verse …if the righteous the being scarcely saved, then where will the sinner appear? If the righteous scarcely be saved (in some may die for a good man..though hardly)…how does God demonstrate His love? Paul asks the Corinthians about this demonstration of God’s love which they should recognize grace being those having received Grace (if they have received Christ) …. “Scarcely” and “hardly” yet God speaks of nothing is too hard for Him.

To me He went to “the righteous” first but seeing they were a rebellious house who refused to hear, when they should be those to listen..He turned to the sinners who scarcely and hardly hear and listen …in Demonstrating the Love of God.

 

[ScottA]

With very little exception, all of Christendom has been affected and suffers under the foretold strong delusion.

As for the return of Christ, that is the subject of the "lie" referred to by Paul. The when and how of Jesus' return has been falsely taught since the early days of the church.

Okay I accept your first statement as being wholly true!
I'm not sure of the second [statement] but happy for you to unpack that in the course of your thread.
I'll put this on my watch list.
Thanks
F2F

The subject of the "lie" foretold by the Apostle Paul (1) and the cause of "strong delusion" (which Peter (2) referred to and foretold as caused by "false teachers" bringing "destructive doctrines" into the church, that according to John (3) was "already in the world" at that time...is what they taught against what Jesus had said about the timing and place of His return.

Now, to be clear, yes there are many other scriptures that can be and have been used to defend their false teachings--but all of them are either simply misunderstood, or they have been purposely shrouded in God's use of parable language to confound the wicked. In other words, the parables are the key code principle to understanding the difference or actual truth which God has only intended for His disciples to understand, saying after a few lessons and examples of how parable language works, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? Which...if you will consider it seriously, would not have been a comment made about the few parables recorded as such which He had already explained. But no, it was in reference to the greater use of parables "all parables" announced by God, as being applicable to every revelation of the mysteries of God otherwise unbeknownst to men, saying:

"Give ear, O my people, to my law;​

Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.​

2 I will open my mouth in a parable;​

I will utter [b]dark sayings of old,​

3 Which we have heard and known,​

And our fathers have told us.​

4 We will not hide them from their children,​

Telling to the generation to come the praises of the Lord,​

And His strength and His wonderful works that He has done." Psalm 78:1-4​

​

In other words, "The words that I speak to you are spirit." John 6:63

But back to the foretold "lie" and the 'destructive doctrines" that were brought into the church by "false teachers" of that time which continue to be taught even today:

Contrary to what Jesus actually said regarding the time and means by which He would return, what has been taught all of this time is that Jesus would not come "soon" or "quickly" as He said, but that the prophecy of Daniel has a "gap" between the 69th and the 70th week-- obviously...because where is He to be seen? And this is what the masses have believed, in spite of Jesus' explanation that "God is spirit" and the spirit cannot be seen, and that He had clearly stated “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me." And yet what has been taught is not "a little while longer"--but perhaps thousands of years longer.

And if Jesus was not to be seen of the world (as the spirit is not seen of the world--which just happens to be the perfect and glorious essence of God), just who should one who is born again of the spirit of God and destine to be One with God in Christ, expect that Jesus would [actually] return? Again in lowly flesh...or in the spiritual glory of God which He has attained?

But the flesh has believed what the flesh desires to the contrary.

And while there is more that could be included and is, that is enough. The church was told the truth by Jesus, warned by Peter and Paul, taught destructive doctrines by false teachers...and has believed--even preferred, the "lie."

Nonetheless, the promises of Christ Jesus also include being led unto all truth before the sounding of the seventh angel. This is that time.

 

[ScottA]

You mean this is all about the antichrist and he's coming from the 7 hills of Rome, the Vatican or RCC ?

No.

 

[ScottA]

Ezekiel 3:27 says to them He who hear; let him hear, He who refuses let him refuse. For they are a rebellious house.

Paul in that passage to the Corinthians…he is asking them to hear.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ “do not seal up the Prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong; still be wrong and the one who is filthy; still be filthy. Let the one who does righteousness; still practice (instruction in) righteousness (which is profitable); and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.
“Let the one who does wrong; still be wrong”
In the passage above where Paul instructed them to “do no wrong”…the above gives a choice …let him that does wrong; still be wrong. (Let him who does wrong; still be in error) With your thread maybe it could also be let him who believes a lie; let him still believe a lie. It all comes back to either hearing or not hearing. First He went to the Jews …in Ezekiel it says He went to those who were righteous and that, first, he went to those who should listen. But since they were unwilling to listen…out of rebellion…we now turn to the gentiles.

Interesting difference in Ezekiel and “we now turn to the gentiles” is Eziekiel says “whoever turns a righteous man” James says “he who turns a sinner from error” for one will hardly die for a righteous man though perhaps some will die for a good man…But God demonstrates His Love toward us, in while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

There is verse …if the righteous the being scarcely saved, then where will the sinner appear? If the righteous scarcely be saved (in some may die for a good man..though hardly)…how does God demonstrate His love? Paul asks the Corinthians about this demonstration of God’s love which they should recognize grace being those having received Grace (if they have received Christ) …. “Scarcely” and “hardly” yet God speaks of nothing is too hard for Him.

To me He went to “the righteous” first but seeing they were a rebellious house who refused to hear, when they should be those to listen..He turned to the sinners who scarcely and hardly hear and listen …in Demonstrating the Love of God.

The exception to “Let the one who does wrong; still be wrong” as it is also written in Revelation 22:11 ("He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”), is that regardless, Jesus has promised that we who are His, when "the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth" and that "in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The exception to “Let the one who does wrong; still be wrong” as it is also written in Revelation 22:11 ("He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”), is that regardless, Jesus has promised that we who are His, when "the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth" and that "in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets."

Makes me think of: so then Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ

 

[Bob Estey]

Peter told us, that because "there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction." 2 Peter 2:1

Paul told us, that "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

And Paul also told us that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

And yet it is apparent that few have taken any of it serious, not expecting the certainty that what has been taught within the church has been corrupted, but instead act as if it has not and that the foretold "lie" is actually the truth, and therefore there is no need for correction, when it not only should have been expected and necessary on an equally grand scale and should have been taught as such.

I might add to your statement that "2,000 Years of Believing a "Lie" Does Not Make it True":

Just because a lot of Christians believe something to be true, doesn't make it true.

 

[ScottA]

I might add to your statement that "2,000 Years of Believing a "Lie" Does Not Make it True":

Just because a lot of Christians believe something to be true, doesn't make it true.

Exactly! --That's the point.

The sad thing is, we have also been given the truth, and it has been avoided like an elephant in the room and not believed. This will be the cause of "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

A good example just happened recently in the church my wife and I were attending for the last couple years. The Pastor gave a sermon showing signs of not having all the information; and when I privately emailed offering help (in love), the whole thing blew up which resulted in a meeting with the Elders, ending in the Pastor stating his seminary-learned doctrine was more authoritative than the scripture I gave in truth and in love, with him even saying that "All Scripture is [NOT] given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." After which he laid down the law saying in effect, I could continue coming to church--only if I kept my mouth shut.

Such is the state of much of the church today, having been taught a multitude of lies that had already begun about the time of the church's beginning. In my own case, there I was wanting to lovingly shed light into the darkness, only to be run off by wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Vall]

The lie is the pharisees of the modern Church ... they opine for power, position and money ..... as we know you can not serve two masters I can imagine what Jesus would say and do upon his return . as for buying into lies I will not, the truth of God will prevail and God is no respecter of men.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The lie is the pharisees of the modern Church ... they opine for power, position and money ..... as we know you can not serve two masters I can imagine what Jesus would say and do upon his return . as for buying into lies I will not, the truth of God will prevail and God is no respecter of men.

Welcome to Christianity Boards!

 

[ScottA]

The lie is the pharisees of the modern Church ... they opine for power, position and money ..... as we know you can not serve two masters I can imagine what Jesus would say and do upon his return . as for buying into lies I will not, the truth of God will prevail and God is no respecter of men.

Welcome!

The point of this thread is that it should be considered by those who think "I will not (or have not believed the foretold lie)", that the deception was "already at work" 2,000 years ago and false teachers were among those who taught us. Which is not just a possibility--but rather a biblical certainty leading to strong delusion and great apostacy undoubtedly well established in the church before we were even aware.

Alternatively, not willing to suspect what we were taught and perhaps have believed--this too was foretold, resulting in "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

[Vall]

Welcome!

The point of this thread is that it should be considered by those who think "I will not (or have not believed the foretold lie)", that the deception was "already at work" 2,000 years ago and false teachers were among those who taught us. Which is not just a possibility--but rather a biblical certainty leading to strong delusion and great apostacy undoubtedly well established in the church before we were even aware.

Alternatively, not willing to suspect what we were taught and perhaps have believed--this too was foretold, resulting in "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

It would be uncomfortably hard to imagine that the apostles of Jesus Christ would perpetrate lies even unto their death which by any standard was brutal ..... What would be the point ..... My entire understanding up to the point of salvation was we must have been dropped off by Martians because surely evolution was not the answer, so the only reasonable conclusion is that God created all and for 28 years I have endeavored to grow as a Christian. The pretense that even one verse of scripture is a lie would negate all of it, so I will believe its entirety as the God inspired word without Question for I have prayed for understanding daily.

 

[Waiting on him]

It would be uncomfortably hard to imagine that the apostles of Jesus Christ would perpetrate lies even unto their death which by any standard was brutal ..... What would be the point ..... My entire understanding up to the point of salvation was we must have been dropped off by Martians because surely evolution was not the answer, so the only reasonable conclusion is that God created all and for 28 years I have endeavored to grow as a Christian. The pretense that even one verse of scripture is a lie would negate all of it, so I will believe its entirety as the God inspired word without Question for I have prayed for understanding daily.

Genesis 32:30 KJV
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
John 1:18 KJV
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Some one here isn’t telling the truth.

 

[Waiting on him]

The subject of the "lie" foretold by the Apostle Paul (1) and the cause of "strong delusion" (which Peter (2) referred to and foretold as caused by "false teachers" bringing "destructive doctrines" into the church, that according to John (3) was "already in the world" at that time...is what they taught against what Jesus had said about the timing and place of His return.

Now, to be clear, yes there are many other scriptures that can be and have been used to defend their false teachings--but all of them are either simply misunderstood, or they have been purposely shrouded in God's use of parable language to confound the wicked. In other words, the parables are the key code principle to understanding the difference or actual truth which God has only intended for His disciples to understand, saying after a few lessons and examples of how parable language works, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? Which...if you will consider it seriously, would not have been a comment made about the few parables recorded as such which He had already explained. But no, it was in reference to the greater use of parables "all parables" announced by God, as being applicable to every revelation of the mysteries of God otherwise unbeknownst to men, saying:

"Give ear, O my people, to my law;​

Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.​

2 I will open my mouth in a parable;​

I will utter [b]dark sayings of old,​

3 Which we have heard and known,​

And our fathers have told us.​

4 We will not hide them from their children,​

Telling to the generation to come the praises of the Lord,​

And His strength and His wonderful works that He has done." Psalm 78:1-4​

​

In other words, "The words that I speak to you are spirit." John 6:63

But back to the foretold "lie" and the 'destructive doctrines" that were brought into the church by "false teachers" of that time which continue to be taught even today:

Contrary to what Jesus actually said regarding the time and means by which He would return, what has been taught all of this time is that Jesus would not come "soon" or "quickly" as He said, but that the prophecy of Daniel has a "gap" between the 69th and the 70th week-- obviously...because where is He to be seen? And this is what the masses have believed, in spite of Jesus' explanation that "God is spirit" and the spirit cannot be seen, and that He had clearly stated “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me." And yet what has been taught is not "a little while longer"--but perhaps thousands of years longer.

And if Jesus was not to be seen of the world (as the spirit is not seen of the world--which just happens to be the perfect and glorious essence of God), just who should one who is born again of the spirit of God and destine to be One with God in Christ, expect that Jesus would [actually] return? Again in lowly flesh...or in the spiritual glory of God which He has attained?

But the flesh has believed what the flesh desires to the contrary.

And while there is more that could be included and is, that is enough. The church was told the truth by Jesus, warned by Peter and Paul, taught destructive doctrines by false teachers...and has believed--even preferred, the "lie."

Nonetheless, the promises of Christ Jesus also include being led unto all truth before the sounding of the seventh angel. This is that time.

Why would you assume that the seventh trumpet didn’t sound in the first century?

 

[Windmill Charge]

Some one here isn’t telling the truth

Basic 101 about Christianity, if we think the bible is not correct, the problem is always in our faulty exergise.

Look again and investigate what a thousand is.

 

[Vall]

This thread exemplifies the need for strong fellowship as apparently even the supposed well learned have difficulty in identifying the subtle and soothing whispers of Satan's minions

 

[Vall]

And after reading some replies and much prayer I stand by my first statement which Scott A dreamed as BS ..... God has set fourth the parameters of his box ... it would be wise to fit in it for the box you try to put God into will be woefully insufficient and that is not BS Scott A

 

[ScottA]

It would be uncomfortably hard to imagine that the apostles of Jesus Christ would perpetrate lies even unto their death which by any standard was brutal ..... What would be the point ..... My entire understanding up to the point of salvation was we must have been dropped off by Martians because surely evolution was not the answer, so the only reasonable conclusion is that God created all and for 28 years I have endeavored to grow as a Christian. The pretense that even one verse of scripture is a lie would negate all of it, so I will believe its entirety as the God inspired word without Question for I have prayed for understanding daily.

Good (your dedication and determination to believe what is written)...but that is not what I was saying.

On the contrary, the scriptures are indeed true, as were the apostles. Yet the truth remains that the "antichrist spirit" was "already at work" during those times. In other words, you can't just throw that part--or Peter saying that false teachers would indeed enter into the church and introduce destructive doctrines, or Paul's declaring that a "lie" would be believed causing strong delusion and great apostacy--and only believe what feels good to you. These are all facts--biblical facts.

In addition, in Revelation Jesus indicated that He [then] had "somewhat against" 5 out of the 7 churches--5 out of 7!

So...there is or should be no question or doubt that these things are true. Even so, the promise of God and Christ also includes being led unto all truth, and that the complete mystery of God would be finished (revealed) just prior to the sounding of the seventh angel.

It is by this same Spirit that I have said what I have said.