2 Chron 11:14-17 and the lost tribes

[Joshua David]

Let me say from the very beginning, that I do not believe in the 10 lost tribes theory, but I would like to discuss the topic with someone who really believes in this idea. My main contention of the 10 lost tribes comes from 2 Chron 11:14-17

2 Chron 11:14-17 [sup]14[/sup]For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD: [sup]15[/sup]And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

[sup]16[/sup]And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

[sup]17[/sup]So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.

What do these verses mean to you? To me it means that when Jeroboam and his sons had cast off all the Levites, the Levites came to Judah and Jerusalem. And after the Levites, those who set their hearts to seek the Lord, who came out of all the tribes of Israel, also came to Jerusalem. And they (the levites as well as the faithful from all the tribes of Israel) strengthened the Kingdom of Judah.

So what, you may ask? Because it was at this time that all the faithful from all twelve tribes lived in the land of Judah. So as far as God was concerned, Rehoboam who was king of Judah, was King of the 12 tribes of Israel. Now how do I know this? Because the Word of God declares it.

Look at the first couple of verses in the next Chapter.

2 Chron 12:1-2 [sup]1[/sup]And it came to pass, when Rehoboam had established the kingdom, and had strengthened himself, he forsook the law of the LORD, and all Israel with him.

[sup]2[/sup]And it came to pass, that in the fifth year of king Rehoboam Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, because they had transgressed against the LORD,

To me, this shows biblically that the Land of Judah, contained all 12 tribes of Israel. After Babylon those who returned came back to the land of the southern Kingdom from which they had been taken, and that’s why it was called Judah, not because only the southern tribes lived there.

I personally believe that the notion of 10 lost tribes is one of the many myths surrounding Israel that simply can’t be supported Biblically. It began as an attempt to support the divine right of rule for the British monarchy and continues among those who believe that even though God gave the land to Israel forever, most of the Jews living there today aren’t the people He gave it to.

If you believe that you can biblically defend the notion of the 10 Lost tribes, then please do so. You can start by giving your interpretation of 2 Chron 11 and 12.



Joshau David

 

[Episkopos]

Let me say from the very beginning, that I do not believe in the 10 lost tribes theory, but I would like to discuss the topic with someone who really believes in this idea. My main contention of the 10 lost tribes comes from 2 Chron 11:14-17

2 Chron 11:14-17 [sup]14[/sup]For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD: [sup]15[/sup]And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

[sup]16[/sup]And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

[sup]17[/sup]So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.

What do these verses mean to you? To me it means that when Jeroboam and his sons had cast off all the Levites, the Levites came to Judah and Jerusalem. And after the Levites, those who set their hearts to seek the Lord, who came out of all the tribes of Israel, also came to Jerusalem. And they (the levites as well as the faithful from all the tribes of Israel) strengthened the Kingdom of Judah.

So what, you may ask? Because it was at this time that all the faithful from all twelve tribes lived in the land of Judah. So as far as God was concerned, Rehoboam who was king do Judah, was King of Israel. Now how do I know this? Because the Word of God declares it.

Look at the first couple of verses in the next Chapter.

2 Chron 12:1-2 [sup]1[/sup]And it came to pass, when Rehoboam had established the kingdom, and had strengthened himself, he forsook the law of the LORD, and all Israel with him.

[sup]2[/sup]And it came to pass, that in the fifth year of king Rehoboam Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, because they had transgressed against the LORD,

To me, this shows biblically that the Land of Judah, contained all 12 tribes of Israel. After Babylon those who returned came back to the land of the southern Kingdom from which they had been taken, and that’s why it was called Judah, not because only the southern tribes lived there.

I personally believe that the notion of 10 lost tribes is one of the many myths surrounding Israel that simply can’t be supported Biblically. It began as an attempt to support the divine right of rule for the British monarchy and continues among those who believe that even though God gave the land to Israel forever, most of the Jews living there today aren’t the people He gave it to.

If you believe that you can biblically defend the notion of the 10 Lost tribes, then please do so. You can start by giving your interpretation of 2 Chron 11 and 12.



Joshau David

The 10 lost tribes of Israel are a reality! The Northern kingdom was obliterated and spread among other nations. The Assyrians knew how to conquer. God used these conquerors to destroy the physical entity called Israel. Only Judah survived (with Benjamin and a remnant of Levi).

The 10 Northern tribes are called collectively "Ephraim". Ephraim means "double fruit".

We who are Gentile disciples are of Ephraim. We bear 2 kinds of fruit...of the flesh AND of the Spirit.

When Joseph blessed Ephraim he said that he would become a fulness of nations (Fulness of Gentiles). In Hebrew this is.."melo hagoyim"

The Hebrew "melo" does not mean multitude....but fulness!

Goyim means either nations or Gentiles.

This is what Paul is referring to in Romans regarding the nations he was sent to as an apostle!

So Israel is BOTH a nation AND a congregation from among the nations! BOTH!

 

[Joshua David]

The 10 lost tribes of Israel are a reality! The Northern kingdom was obliterated and spread among other nations. The Assyrians knew how to conquer. God used these conquerors to destroy the physical entity called Israel. Only Judah survived (with Benjamin and a remnant of Levi).

The 10 Northern tribes are called collectively "Ephraim". Ephraim means "double fruit".

We who are Gentile disciples are of Ephraim. We bear 2 kinds of fruit...of the flesh AND of the Spirit.

When Joseph blessed Ephraim he said that he would become a fulness of nations (Fulness of Gentiles). In Hebrew this is.."melo hagoyim"

The Hebrew "melo" does not mean multitude....but fulness!

Goyim means either nations or Gentiles.

This is what Paul is referring to in Romans regarding the nations he was sent to as an apostle!

So Israel is BOTH a nation AND a congregation from among the nations! BOTH!

I noticed that you completely ignored what I wrote concerning 2 Chron 11 and 12. If the lost 10 tribes is a reality like you said, then you should be able to explain what those verses mean and how they fit within your interpretation.


Joshua David

 

[Episkopos]

I noticed that you completely ignored what I wrote concerning 2 Chron 11 and 12. If the lost 10 tribes is a reality like you said, then you should be able to explain what those verses mean and how they fit within your interpretation.

Joshua David

One should not take seriously someone who reads a few verses that go against hundreds of others in order to prove as wrong the plan of God.

You are setting Israel against Israel.

“2 Chr 11:1 ¶ And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen [men], which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam. 2 But the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying, 3 Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin, saying, 4 Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren: return every man to his house: for this thing is done of me. And they obeyed the words of the LORD, and returned from going against Jeroboam.

So what God has done to Jeroboam and Israel don't despise! They have been sifted through the nations to become the Israel of God.

Jesus speaks of the prodigal son....this is Ephraim.

The faithful son...the faithful of Israel...is Judah.

 

[tomwebster]

...
I personally believe that the notion of 10 lost tribes is one of the many myths surrounding Israel that simply can’t be supported Biblically. It began as an attempt to support the divine right of rule for the British monarchy and continues among those who believe that even though God gave the land to Israel forever, most of the Jews living there today aren’t the people He gave it to.

If you believe that you can biblically defend the notion of the 10 Lost tribes, then please do so. .
...

It can be supported with history. Scripture is about those that were in relationship to Jerusalem it does not tell all of history. Those people from the tribes that did not return to Jerusalem are still Israel. God still knows where they are and they are still His people. They just forgot who they were. Many of them are the dry bones of Ezekiel that are awakening at this time. The largest portion of true Judah doesn't even know who they are today. Only a small portion of true Judah returned from captivity.

 

[Episkopos]

I ask you to do a study on Ephraim...this is synonymous with the lost tribes of Israel.

Jer 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.

Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

8 When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son. 9 And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, [2] for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Children of the living God.” 11 And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.






AND.......

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. John 10:16

Compare with..

Ez. 37:15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick [4] and write on it, ‘For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ 17 And join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. 18 And when your people say to you, ‘Will you not tell us what you mean by these?’ 19 say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, [5] and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. 20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings [6] in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land [7] and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

 

[Joshua David]

One should not take seriously someone who reads a few verses that go against hundreds of others in order to prove as wrong the plan of God.

You are setting Israel against Israel.

“2 Chr 11:1 ¶ And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen [men], which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam. 2 But the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying, 3 Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin, saying, 4 Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren: return every man to his house: for this thing is done of me. And they obeyed the words of the LORD, and returned from going against Jeroboam.

So what God has done to Jeroboam and Israel don't despise! They have been sifted through the nations to become the Israel of God.

Jesus speaks of the prodigal son....this is Ephraim.

The faithful son...the faithful of Israel...is Judah.

I am not setting Israel against Israel, I am saying that the Word of God declares that when Jeroboam threw out all the Levites, they as well as all the faithful from all the 10 tribes of Israel went down to Judah and strengthened it. I am saying that the Word of God declares that when Rehoboam established the Kingdom and forsook the Lord, that ALL of Israel, meaning all 12 tribes, did as well.( 2 Chron 12:1) What I am saying is that the Word of the Lord declares that All of Israel was established in Judah.


If you disagree with my interpretation of the scriptures, then by all means please tell me what you think they mean.


Joshua David

It can be supported with history. Scripture is about those that were in relationship to Jerusalem it does not tell all of history. Those people from the tribes that did not return to Jerusalem are still Israel. God still knows where they are and they are still His people. They just forgot who they were. Many of them are the dry bones of Ezekiel that are awakening at this time. The largest portion of true Judah doesn't even know who they are today. Only a small portion of true Judah returned from captivity.

Sorry when I have scriptures that specifically tell me otherwise, I really could care less about what secular history teaches. I have given you scriptural reasons why I reject this so called "lost 10 tribes" theory, all I am asking in return is scriptural evidence on why you believe it, and if it is true, then what is the correct interpretation of the scriptures that I provided.


Joshua David

I ask you to do a study on Ephraim...this is synonymous with the lost tribes of Israel.

Jer 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.

Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

8 When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son. 9 And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, [2] for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Children of the living God.” 11 And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Right now, all I am asking is a simple explanation of what 2 Chron 11 and 12 mean. Either they mean that all that is considered faithful Israel settled in Judah, like I said, which would invalidate this whole 'lost tribes' idea, or it doesn't. All I am asking is if it doesn't mean that all of faithful Israel settled in Judah, then what does it mean?


Joshua David

 

[tomwebster]

...
Sorry when I have scriptures that specifically tell me otherwise, I really could care less about what secular history teaches. I have given you scriptural reasons why I reject this so called "lost 10 tribes" theory, all I am asking in return is scriptural evidence on why you believe it, and if it is true, then what is the correct interpretation of the scriptures that I provided.


Joshua David


...

Well, jd, you just keep ignoring all the Scripture Episkopos is posting, and ignore history, it's OK, someday you might see it.

 

[Episkopos]

I am not setting Israel against Israel, I am saying that the Word of God declares that when Jeroboam threw out all the Levites, they as well as all the faithful from all the 10 tribes of Israel went down to Judah and strengthened it. I am saying that the Word of God declares that when Rehoboam established the Kingdom and forsook the Lord, that ALL of Israel, meaning all 12 tribes, did as well.( 2 Chron 12:1) What I am saying is that the Word of the Lord declares that All of Israel was established in Judah.

If you disagree with my interpretation of the scriptures, then by all means please tell me what you think they mean.

Joshua David





Sorry when I have scriptures that specifically tell me otherwise, I really could care less about what secular history teaches. I have given you scriptural reasons why I reject this so called "lost 10 tribes" theory, all I am asking in return is scriptural evidence on why you believe it, and if it is true, then what is the correct interpretation of the scriptures that I provided.

Joshua David






Right now, all I am asking is a simple explanation of what 2 Chron 11 and 12 mean. Either they mean that all that is considered faithful Israel settled in Judah, like I said, which would invalidate this whole 'lost tribes' idea, or it doesn't. All I am asking is if it doesn't mean that all of faithful Israel settled in Judah, then what does it mean?

Joshua David

What I am saying is that Ephraim was NOT incorporated into Judah. You have shown that a few trans-migrated. That is all. But Ephraim was not incorporated but rather scattered to the winds. They were cast away! But that is not the end of the story!

That is...until the Lord pined for them again! Then He brought them back under ONE Shepherd who is Christ the Lord.

So now we have both houses of Israel represented in the Body of Christ. The Jews are of Judah, the Gentiles are of Ephraim.

This is the true faithfulness. Not according to the law...as you have pointed out...but according to FAITH and faithfulness!

Maran atha!

 

[Joshua David]

Well, jd, you just keep ignoring all the Scripture Episkopos is posting, and ignore history, it's OK, someday you might see it.

I am not ignoring scriptures, in fact, I started this thread asking for people's interpretation for the scripture of 2 Chron 11 and 12. I have yet had someone reply where they specifically addressed the scripture that I am asking about.


I am not saying that I am against discussing those other scriptures, and I will be happy to discuss them AFTER we discuss the scriptures that I brought up. If anyone is ignoring scriptures, it is you and Episkopos. I wasn't asking about history, I wasn't asking about about Ephriam, I was asking about what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 meant and what did they say about Israel and Judah.


Because I look at it this way, if you can't explain to me what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 mean, then why would I listen to all the other 'information' that you have to present? So I am going to ask one more time. Is there someone who believes in the "lost 10 tribes" theory that can explain what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 mean?


Also I wanted to say, I did look through some (but not all) of the Threads that deal with the lost ten tribes, to see if someone addressed these scriptures. I didn't find any, which is why I started this thread.


Joshua David

 

[Episkopos]

I am not ignoring scriptures, in fact, I started this thread asking for people's interpretation for the scripture of 2 Chron 11 and 12. I have yet had someone reply where they specifically addressed the scripture that I am asking about.

I am not saying that I am against discussing those other scriptures, and I will be happy to discuss them AFTER we discuss the scriptures that I brought up. If anyone is ignoring scriptures, it is you and Episkopos. I wasn't asking about history, I wasn't asking about about Ephriam, I was asking about what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 meant and what did they say about Israel and Judah.

Because I look at it this way, if you can't explain to me what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 mean, then why would I listen to all the other 'information' that you have to present? So I am going to ask one more time. Is there someone who believes in the "lost 10 tribes" theory that can explain what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 mean?

Also I wanted to say, I did look through some (but not all) of the Threads that deal with the lost ten tribes, to see if someone addressed these scriptures. I didn't find any, which is why I started this thread.

Joshua David

The verses you quoted show that some of the Northern tribes came to Jerusalem to sacrifice! This took place for 3 years!

Then Rehoboam forsook the law! (Chap 12;1) and all of Israel that were in in Judah followed suit!

But all of Israel in Ephraim did not fight with them.

Rehoboam and Jeroboam were not together.

Each has his own destiny!

 

[tomwebster]

I am not ignoring scriptures, in fact, I started this thread asking for people's interpretation for the scripture of 2 Chron 11 and 12. I have yet had someone reply where they specifically addressed the scripture that I am asking about.


I am not saying that I am against discussing those other scriptures, and I will be happy to discuss them AFTER we discuss the scriptures that I brought up. If anyone is ignoring scriptures, it is you and Episkopos. I wasn't asking about history, I wasn't asking about about Ephriam, I was asking about what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 meant and what did they say about Israel and Judah.


Because I look at it this way, if you can't explain to me what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 mean, then why would I listen to all the other 'information' that you have to present? So I am going to ask one more time. Is there someone who believes in the "lost 10 tribes" theory that can explain what 2 Chron 11:13-17 and 2 Chron 2:1 mean?


Also I wanted to say, I did look through some (but not all) of the Threads that deal with the lost ten tribes, to see if someone addressed these scriptures. I didn't find any, which is why I started this thread.


Joshua David

You choose to take a few verses from Scripture, out of context, to try to prove something that they do not prove. All kinds of things can be "proved" if Scripture is taken out of context. Men have been doing it for years. 2 Chron 11:13-17 does not stand by itself; those verses are 5 verses that are a small part of the history of one king. They do not prove anything.

 

[Joshua David]

What I am saying is that Ephraim was NOT incorporated into Judah. You have shown that a few trans-migrated. That is all. But Ephraim was not incorporated but rather scattered to the winds. They were cast away! But that is not the end of the story!

That is...until the Lord pined for them again! Then He brought them back under ONE Shepherd who is Christ the Lord.

So now we have both houses of Israel represented in the Body of Christ. The Jews are of Judah, the Gentiles are of Ephraim.

This is the true faithfulness. Not according to the law...as you have pointed out...but according to FAITH and faithfulness!

Maran atha!

Ok, so at least now you are addressing it. You are saying that all I have shown was a few trans-migrated. But is that what the bible says?


2 Chron 12:1-2 [sup]1[/sup]And it came to pass, when Rehoboam had established the kingdom, and had strengthened himself, he forsook the law of the LORD, and all Israel with him.




2 Chron 12 says that when Rehoboam had established the Kingdom, ( what Kingdom? Judah) and had strengthened himself ( How were he strengthened? By all the faithful from all 12 tribes, 2 Chron 11:16-17) he forsook the law of the Lord, and all Israel with him. ( Wouldn't Ephraim be part of Israel? Yes he is.) Therefore Ephraim as well as the rest of Israel, ( which is what makes it all of Isreal ) was established in the Kingdom that Rehoboam established in Judah. And therefore all of Israel became known as Jews, not because they were all from the tribe of Judah, but because they lived in the LAND of Judah.


This is what 2 Chron 12 is saying. There are no lost tribes. There never were.


The only way that I could see that this theory of the lost 10 tribes was true would be to show that Ephraim was not part of Israel, because if Ephraim is part of Israel, then he was established in the Land of Judah. Is that what you are claiming?


Is there any direct scriptural evidence to suggest that the gentile nations is the tribe of Ephraim, or do you arrive at this conclusion by taking a bunch of scriptures together and adding together what history says?


Let me say that I do not mean to sound beligerant or aggressive. I really want to understand what you believe, but please understand, I consider this theory to be a dangerous heresy. I am passionate in my beliefs, please do not take what I say personally or sarcasticly. I tried reading in the threads to find some of the answers I needed, but I couldn't find one that addressed my specific questions. It had alot of information in them, just not the kind that I was looking for, and none that I cared to really study in detail until I can be a peace in my own mind that this theory does not contradict scripture, which is what I believe at the moment. I really do thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.


Joshua David

 

[Joshua David]

You choose to take a few verses from Scripture, out of context, to try to prove something that they do not prove. All kinds of things can be "proved" if Scripture is taken out of context. Men have been doing it for years. 2 Chron 11:13-17 does not stand by itself; those verses are 5 verses that are a small part of the history of one king. They do not prove anything.

Tomwebster,


I am not trying to prove something, what I am asking, and what I have asked repeatedly in this thread is can you explain YOUR understanding of those scriptures. Yes I did tell you what my understanding of those scripture, and why I believe that my understanding of those scriptures is incompatible with a lost ten tribes theory, but I have asked over and over for someone to explain those scriptures to me.


If you are unwilling or unable to do this, then please be kind enough to leave the thread.

The verses you quoted show that some of the Northern tribes came to Jerusalem to sacrifice! This took place for 3 years!
Then Rehoboam forsook the law! (Chap 12;1) and all of Israel that were in in Judah followed suit!

But all of Israel in Ephraim did not fight with them.

Rehoboam and Jeroboam were not together.


Each has his own destiny!

Episkopos,


Thank you for giving me your understanding. At least now we can get somewhere in this conversation.


Does the bible use the term all of Israel in Ephraim? I thought Ephraim was a part of Israel, not Israel was a part of Ephraim. Isn't this an important distinction. Take a high school. A high school is made up of 9th grade to 12th grade. I can say that the 9th graders went to an assembly, or I can say that the high schoolers went to the assembly. If I said that all the high school students when to the assembly, wouldn't the common understanding on that subject be that students in the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th grades all went to the assembly?


Am I missing something?




Joshua David

 

[Episkopos]

Ok, so at least now you are addressing it. You are saying that all I have shown was a few trans-migrated. But is that what the bible says?

2 Chron 12:1-2 [sup]1[/sup]And it came to pass, when Rehoboam had established the kingdom, and had strengthened himself, he forsook the law of the LORD, and all Israel with him.



2 Chron 12 says that when Rehoboam had established the Kingdom, ( what Kingdom? Judah) and had strengthened himself ( How were he strengthened? By all the faithful from all 12 tribes, 2 Chron 11:16-17) he forsook the law of the Lord, and all Israel with him. ( Wouldn't Ephraim be part of Israel? Yes he is.) Therefore Ephraim as well as the rest of Israel, ( which is what makes it all of Isreal ) was established in the Kingdom that Rehoboam established in Judah. And therefore all of Israel became known as Jews, not because they were all from the tribe of Judah, but because they lived in the LAND of Judah.

This is what 2 Chron 12 is saying. There are no lost tribes. There never were.

The only way that I could see that this theory of the lost 10 tribes was true would be to show that Ephraim was not part of Israel, because if Ephraim is part of Israel, then he was established in the Land of Judah. Is that what you are claiming?

Is there any direct scriptural evidence to suggest that the gentile nations is the tribe of Ephraim, or do you arrive at this conclusion by taking a bunch of scriptures together and adding together what history says?

Let me say that I do not mean to sound beligerant or aggressive. I really want to understand what you believe, but please understand, I consider this theory to be a dangerous heresy. I am passionate in my beliefs, please do not take what I say personally or sarcasticly. I tried reading in the threads to find some of the answers I needed, but I couldn't find one that addressed my specific questions. It had alot of information in them, just not the kind that I was looking for, and none that I cared to really study in detail until I can be a peace in my own mind that this theory does not contradict scripture, which is what I believe at the moment. I really do thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Joshua David

All Israel here does not mean all Israelites. All Israel is used on both sides of the border.

Look at this!

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write uponit, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:


Here it is Ephraim that has all the house of Israel. So if I didn't know the whole of scripture (or at least take the whole into account) then I could propose the opposite scenario!
Look at the whole of scripture and don't step on the landmines of personal preferences.

 

[Joshua David]

All Israel here does not mean all Israelites. All Israel is used on both sides of the border.

Look at this!

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write uponit, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:


Here it is Ephraim that has all the house of Israel. So if I didn't know the whole of scripture (or at least take the whole into account) then I could propose the opposite scenario!
Look at the whole of scripture and don't step on the landmines of personal preferences.

Thank you very much for that information.. That gives me an excellent place to begin my study.

Joshua David

 

[Joshua David]

Ok so I can understand where you are coming from, and I have looked over some of the scriptures that you gave me, but I have some questions...

If God dispersed Ephraim throughout the nations, that doesn't mean that everyone in that nation became an Israelite. I mean, let's say that they moved into the British Isles, that doesn't mean that all the Brits are Israelites. I could see how you might think that some of the gentiles are Israelites and not know it, but this is a totally different view than the gentile nations are the nation of Ephraim.

Do you see what I am talking about?

Joshua David

 

[tomwebster]

Tomwebster,


I am not trying to prove something, what I am asking, and what I have asked repeatedly in this thread is can you explain YOUR understanding of those scriptures. Yes I did tell you what my understanding of those scripture, and why I believe that my understanding of those scriptures is incompatible with a lost ten tribes theory, but I have asked over and over for someone to explain those scriptures to me.


If you are unwilling or unable to do this, then please be kind enough to leave the thread.
....

And what I told you is that you are taking 5 verses out of their context and you cannot do that. You must read those verses as part of the history of Rehoboam,2 Chron 10:1 -- 12:16. That text is talking about how Rehoboam led his people astray. And 2 Chron 10:1 -- 12:16 is a small part of a large context of I Chron 11:1 -- 2 Chron 36: 21.

 

[Episkopos]

Ok so I can understand where you are coming from, and I have looked over some of the scriptures that you gave me, but I have some questions...

If God dispersed Ephraim throughout the nations, that doesn't mean that everyone in that nation became an Israelite. I mean, let's say that they moved into the British Isles, that doesn't mean that all the Brits are Israelites. I could see how you might think that some of the gentiles are Israelites and not know it, but this is a totally different view than the gentile nations are the nation of Ephraim.

Do you see what I am talking about?

Joshua David

Yes! I think so!

It's more like leaven...The kingdom of God is like leaven...a little was added and the whole is leavened!

The scattering of Ephraim has nothing to do with DNA or race. It is spiritual in nature. God wanted the promises to be available to all. So He spread Ephraim the way one would spread seed!

Those who believe are thus of Ephraim. But this is according to the Spirit.

Judah remains Israel according to the flesh. But the promises are to those of faith. So Physical Israel gets first dibs. Then, we, who are not of physical Israel, get what remains...which is a lot! So it is with men...first the physical, THEN the spiritual! So God was reserving Ephraim for it's future role in bearing "double fruit".

This is supposed to make Judah jealous!



In this way no man can boast at being special. Too often the difference is set against the other...as in..If Judah boasts of it's physical claims, then Ephraim can boast of it's spiritual calling. (The problem here is for the Messianics who follow this dual trend!):huh:

But we are to each esteem the other as higher than the other. That is the plan of God.

 

[tomwebster]

...
The scattering of Ephraim has nothing to do with DNA or race. It is spiritual in nature. God wanted the promises to be available to all. So He spread Ephraim the way one would spread seed!

Those who believe are thus of Ephraim. But this is according to the Spirit.

...

E, If you are thinking the Northern Tribes are just a Spiritual thing we will disagree. They are a race and a blood line that was scattered throughout the world. They make up most of the Christian church today. Not replacement Theology but a blood line of people named after the Mountains they crossed in their migration out of Assyria.