2 Thess 2:3 -- apostasia

[ATP]

2 Thess 2:3 World English Bible

Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Having seen how the popular understanding of the phrase "falling away" creates a problem for the posttribulational interpretation of 2Thess 2, let's get to what we believe is the simple solution.

Though one would never know it to read most Bibles today, the Greek noun apostasia, translated "falling away" in this passage, has an alternate translation: it can also be translated "departure", "departing", or "disappearance". This is significant because this particular translation, according to scholars, denotes the removal of something, as in the physical or spatial sense. Could it be that the Greek word, apostasia, rather than denoting a spiritual falling away or rebellion is actually referring to the removal of God's people at the Rapture?

The interesting thing is that "departure" used to be the predominant translation of the Greek, apostasia; it was found in virtually every early version of the English Bible. Even the Latin Vulgate from around 400 AD translates apostasia to discessio, meaning "departure". So the "departure/removal" translation is by no means a stretch or an anomaly -- it used to be the norm. For whatever reason -- no good one has ever been given -- the translators of the King James Version (published in 1611) decided to render apostasia, "falling away". Subsequently, most English versions followed suit.

From the book: The Coming Days of Awe by T.W. Tramm

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

This is the same mistake that Timothy LaHaye and Thomas Ice make in their book: Charting the End Times.

They rely on early English versions predating even the King James to push a physical departure into the verse.

However, while being first usually sets the benchmark for something, the very first can be fairly far off the true mark, sort of like how scientists started out trying to figure out the speed of light vastly under-calculated its true speed.

In relying on the earliest English versions, LaHaye and Ice also remove their argument from the context of the surrounding verses, particularly the initial set up which puts the "departure" as a precedent for Christ's paraousia and the linked gathering unto Him by us.

The interesting thing about apostesia is that it means the same thing as its derivative English word: apostasy: it's a departure from morality.

(Spelling correction)

 

[ATP]

This is the same mistake that Timothy LaHaye and Thomas Ice make in their book: Charting the End Times.

They rely on early English versions predating even the King James to push a physical departure into the verse.

However, while being first usually sets the benchmark for something, the very first can be fairly far off the true mark, sort of like how scientists started out trying to figure out the speed of light vastly under-calculated its true speed.

In relying on the earliest English versions, LaHaye and Ice also remove their argument from the context of the surrounding verses, particularly the initial set up which puts the "departure" as a precedent for Christ's paraousia and the linked gathering unto Him by us.

The interesting thing about apostesia is that it means the same thing as its derivative English word: apostasy: it's a departure from morality.

(Spelling correction)

It seems as though verse 3-8 is giving a chronological description of (1) rapture first (2) antichrist second (3) God's wrath.

(1) but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
(2) And then the lawless one will be revealed,
(3) whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

2 Thess 2:3-8 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the (rapture) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

[ATP]

I also believe Matt 24:29-31 is in reference to a (dual prophecy), before and also after tribulation.

 

[ATP]

Sackloth is a sign of mourning..

Matt 24:30 NIV “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,

 

[ATP]

God's wrath consists of all seven years..Rev 6:17 NIV For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

[1st]
It seems as though verse 3-8 is giving a chronological description of (1) rapture first (2) antichrist second (3) God's wrath.

[2nd]
2 Thess 2:3-8 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the (rapture) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Negative.

[1st]
Paul uses a reverse order.
The Day of the Lord AND our gathering up to Him (the Rapture) do not happen UNTIL:
...the apostasy (rebellion) happens and the anti-Christ is revealed.

The proper order in which these event happens is:
1. Apostasy occurs - things like abortion, homosexuality, witchcraft (Harry Potter) atheism (fastest growing religion in America)
2, Man of Lawlessness revealed - when the abomination is set up in the Temple, in the Holy Place, then all doubts will be removed.
3. The Day of the Lord comes AND we are gathered up.

Thus Paul mirrors Jesus' Olivet Discourse; he gets the order right because it's the same - Jesus puts the abomination first and later the Day of the Lord: the order is the same.

[2nd]
The verse says this:
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Remember, that day refers back to verse 1 and stands for the Day of Christ, or: the Day of the Lord.
When the Day of the Lord comes: we will be gathered up - Paul links the them 1:2 with the conjunction 'and'.

It is not: we are departed so Jesus can come and gather us up so we depart the earth.
It is: the apostasy comes, the man of lawlessness will be revealed, and then Jesus comes and gathers us up.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Sackloth is a sign of mourning..
And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
The sun turned black like sackcloth

The mourning happens well after the sun is darkened at noon.

Remember Joel 2: the sun/moon/star sign precedes the Day of the Lord. They are not completely synonymous. They do happen 1-2.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

God's wrath consists of all seven years..Rev 6:17 NIV For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Negative.

That utterance for God's Wrath "coming" (not yet there) is from the wicked.

At that precise moment: God is not coming for them, but for us. However, in the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll Chronology in Revelation in chapters 13-16 -- before the Harvest on the clouds, 3 Angels warn the people of the earth of their impending doom. The wicked are entirely selfish and think only of themselves.

At that moment with the sixth Seal, God is coming for us: our redemption draweth nigh.

Remember, the sun/moon/star sign in the sixth Seal is replicated in the Olivet Discourse - and in that account, also given by Jesus - the sun/moon/star sign comes after the (midpoint) abomination. Jesus does not contradict Himself.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I also believe Matt 24:29-31 is in reference to a (dual prophecy), before and also after tribulation.

Don't believe everything you think, but you can believe anything you want: it just doesn't make it true though.

Mt 24:29-31 is the Day of the Lord when we look up because our redemption is near.

The sun/moon/star event of v.29 - which precedes the Day of the Lord in vv.30-31 - comes immediately after those days - the days of Great Tribulation when we are dying wholesale because of the two laws put into effect with the previous (v.15) abomination. Those two laws can be found in Rev 13:14-15.

 

[ATP]

Negative.

[1st]
Paul uses a reverse order.
The Day of the Lord AND our gathering up to Him (the Rapture) do not happen UNTIL:
...the apostasy (rebellion) happens and the anti-Christ is revealed.

I would submit that the word "rebellion" is translator bias. What are your thoughts on the word "discessio".

[2nd]
The verse says this:
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Remember, that day refers back to verse 1 and stands for the Day of Christ, or: the Day of the Lord.
When the Day of the Lord comes: we will be gathered up - Paul links the them 1:2 with the conjunction 'and'.

It is not: we are departed so Jesus can come and gather us up so we depart the earth.
It is: the apostasy comes, the man of lawlessness will be revealed, and then Jesus comes and gathers us up.

The day of the Lord, Jacob's trouble and the great tribulation are all speaking of the same thing. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

5Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The mourning happens well after the sun is darkened at noon.

Remember Joel 2: the sun/moon/star sign precedes the Day of the Lord. They are not completely synonymous. They do happen 1-2.

How do you not see Matt 24:29-31 as a dual prophecy??

 

[ATP]

Don't believe everything you think, but you can believe anything you want: it just doesn't make it true though.

Mt 24:29-31 is the Day of the Lord when we look up because our redemption is near.

The sun/moon/star event of v.29 - which precedes the Day of the Lord in vv.30-31 - comes immediately after those days - the days of Great Tribulation when we are dying wholesale because of the two laws put into effect with the previous (v.15) abomination. Those two laws can be found in Rev 13:14-15.

I believe Matt 24:29-31 speaks of birth pain tribulations and also the great tribulation, second coming...

Matt 24:29-31 NIV "Immediately after the distress (birth pains) of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matt 24:29-31 NIV "Immediately after the distress (great tribulation) of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I would submit that the word "rebellion" is translator bias. What are your thoughts on the word "discessio".

Rebellion is not "bias" on the part of the translator, but rather the NIV trying to get the best meaning-for-meaning to the reader in translation.

The NASB, which goes for the best word-for-word meaning in its method of translation (there's more than one way to skin a cat and it's an art) has "apostasy" - which means the same thing in a religious-opposite God-kind of way.

Here is some more on apostasia:

Liddel & Scott
ἀπο-στᾰσία, ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις, defection, revolt, v.
l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.
2. departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2. (not a Biblical book)
3. distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7.
4. distance, Archim.Aren.1.5.

Geoffrey W. Bromiley in the Theological Word Dictionary of the New Testament has this to say on p. 89 of his book (which I have):
apostasia. Based on apostátēs (politically a “rebel,” religiously an “apostate”), this term signifies the state (not an act) of apostasy. Paul is accused of apostasy against the law in Acts 21:21. Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt. 24:11-12.)

So apostasia is a state, not an act.

Trying to make apostasia into a verb action to denote the Rapture is a complete corruption of the language and all and every good rule of translation.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

How do you not see Matt 24:29-31 as a dual prophecy??

Because the Day of the Lord is a singular Day.

The Olivet Discourse is composed with parallel construction.

Verses 4-14 provide a broad overview summing up with the "end" of the Church Age in v.14.

Jesus then, in parallel to that, provides a second, detailed, parallel account about a time of most interest to us: vv. 15-31 which covers from the midpoint of the one 'seven' with the abomination of Daniel 9:27 to whenever it is that the Day of the Lord commences: He comes again, and we are gathered up --- which IS the end of the Church Age previously mentioned in v.14.

"the distress of those days" is in direct reference within its parallel account in the detailed portion of the Olivet Discourse and references the previously defined, singular and unique: Great Tribulation.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

Actually, while many think this the case, and it may very well be; there is no way for us to know who or whom Paul is talking about.

He gave the Thessalonians that information personally, but exactly who does the restraining and is removed from the midst is not clear.

For instance: the Holy Spirit, being every part of the unified "one" of God, need not be removed. It can well remove itself.

 

[ATP]

So apostasia is a state, not an act.

Trying to make apostasia into a verb action to denote the Rapture is a complete corruption of the language and all and every good rule of translation.

Wouldn't the word "occurs" be the verb?

2 Thess 2:3-8 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the (rapture) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Because the Day of the Lord is a singular Day.

Maybe not. Maybe it represents all seven years. Between the Feast of Trumpets/Rapture and the Day of Atonement/Second Coming is seven days I believe, representing seven year trib. I believe people will be saying peace and safety before the first four seals are broken right before the seven years begin, right around the magog war Ezek 38:11 NIV, 1 Thess 5:3 NIV.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Maybe the Easter Bunny is real.

for that day will not come until the (rapture) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed,

Apostasy is not the Rapture.

Within 2Th 2:1-4 Paul establishes the apostasy - what you mislabel as the Rapture - coming BEFORE Jesus comes and gathers (the Rapture) us up!

When you mislabel apostasy as the rapture you have the Rapture being a precursor for the Rapture.
The Rapture cannot happen before the Rapture!

 

[ATP]

Apostasy is not the Rapture.

Within 2Th 2:1-4 Paul establishes the apostasy - what you mislabel as the Rapture - coming BEFORE Jesus comes and gathers (the Rapture) us up!

When you mislabel apostasy as the rapture you have the Rapture being a precursor for the Rapture.
The Rapture cannot happen before the Rapture!

I guess there's no reason to keep our lamps full if we know when mid-trib will occur then, Matt 24:42-44, Matt 25:1-13. :unsure:

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

What?

Do you know when you're going to die?

Do you not know that to believe in Jesus in the Greek demands an ongoing, continuous belief?

And Pre-Wrath does not set a date - and according to Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, the Day of the Lord does not happen at the midpoint of the one 'seven'. The erection of a talking image of the anti-Christ inside the Temple happens at the midpoint of the one 'seven'. Then, with two laws we're explicitly told to disobey or risk "losing our salvation" come into being - which is what makes the Great Tribulation so bad for the Elect that they would be entirely eliminated if not for God the Father stepping in and ending it before all life (to be saved that is saved) is killed by the wicked - who are going to be bound and burned in this world with God's Wrath that follows the Rapture.

So you better keep your lamp full, and don't try to "buy" any oil during the Great Tribulation - because that means you'll have to take the Mark, and if you do that, you will be shut out of the wedding feast of the Lamb.

 

[ATP]

Do you not know that to believe in Jesus in the Greek demands an ongoing, continuous belief?

I'm a OSAS believer. For a different thread tho.