2 Thess 2:3 -- apostasia

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You believe christians can lose their salvation and be thrown into the lake of fire. FAALLSE.

TRUE!

That's what the Bible says happens IF YOU WORSHIP THE ABOMINATION OR TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

OSAS fails when it falls on the tip of Rev 14:9-11.

Some people just don't like anything more difficult than a warm glass of milk. Good night ATP.

 

[ATP]

TRUE!

That's what the Bible says happens IF YOU WORSHIP THE ABOMINATION OR TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST.

..IS NOT referring to believers. Otherwise God is a liar. Are you calling God a liar? Do you believe Marcus?

1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[ATP]

OSAS fails when it falls on the tip of Rev 14:9-11.

Some people just don't like anything more difficult than a warm glass of milk. Good night ATP.

Non-osas is deception bro. You will not enter heaven based on good deeds. The blood of Jesus is your only hope. Good night.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

..IS NOT referring to believers. Otherwise God is a liar. Are you calling God a liar? Do you believe Marcus?

I really hate to shake your apple cart ATP, but YOU - if you take the mark of the beast, or worship the talking image of the anti-Christ - you're going to Hell.

Does that make God out to be a liar? NO!

It makes you out to be foolish because your faith was not real - you did not continue in your faith and when the biggest test of your life came - your faith was not that at all!

The warnings Jesus gives us is to us, the believers, the faithful, so we don't lose faith when it's needed most and try to save ourselves.

If you believe in OSAS - you can deceive yourself in thinking you can have Jesus in your heart but get down on your knees to an idol. - That pig just won't fly with God.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You will not enter heaven based on good deeds.

You have little understanding of what James said about works and faith.

Faith without works is dead.

Only someone without the ability to think it through about what James said could conclude that James says you enter Heaven through your works and accuse another believer in Jesus that he denies He is the only way.

That's pretty much it, bro.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

..IS NOT referring to believers. Otherwise God is a liar. Are you calling God a liar? Do you believe Marcus?

I really don't like this game you're playing here. You are saying I am calling God a liar and that I don't believe. That's offensive.

Who is calling God a liar? Well let me put it to you this way:

If you take the mark of the beast, saying to yourself that you have Jesus in your heart, and banking on ALL the verses you've trotted out - then you're saying that God lied when He said that anyone who takes the mark of the beast will go to Hell.

That kind of hurts doesn't it?

So I won't say you make God out to be a liar; that's offensive. I think you're taking a very simple view which can't comprehend a simple complication. There is a clause that invalidates every OSAS verse out there - Rev 14:9-11. What that verse does is prove that whatever faith that so-called Christian had was not true faith because it did not continue under adversity. And so when faced with a life-threatening situation, they give up their faith to save their life. Jesus had something to say about that too... and it's not good for the OSAS believer.

So I don't know if you're going to figure out the seeming dichotomy between the faith verses and this warning verse to the Church - but it matters not.

What does matter is how we treat each other. And I won't call you a liar or question your faith. I will warn you not to delude yourself about the need to continue in faith and to show that faith in works so that you are fruitful.

 

[ATP]

I really don't like this game you're playing here. You are saying I am calling God a liar and that I don't believe. That's offensive.

Who is calling God a liar? Well let me put it to you this way:

If you take the mark of the beast, saying to yourself that you have Jesus in your heart, and banking on ALL the verses you've trotted out - then you're saying that God lied when He said that anyone who takes the mark of the beast will go to Hell.

That kind of hurts doesn't it?

So I won't say you make God out to be a liar; that's offensive. I think you're taking a very simple view which can't comprehend a simple complication. There is a clause that invalidates every OSAS verse out there - Rev 14:9-11. What that verse does is prove that whatever faith that so-called Christian had was not true faith because it did not continue under adversity. And so when faced with a life-threatening situation, they give up their faith to save their life. Jesus had something to say about that too... and it's not good for the OSAS believer.

So I don't know if you're going to figure out the seeming dichotomy between the faith verses and this warning verse to the Church - but it matters not.

What does matter is how we treat each other. And I won't call you a liar or question your faith. I will warn you not to delude yourself about the need to continue in faith and to show that faith in works so that you are fruitful.

Best wishes on your journey. - ATP

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Have a nice life.

 

[amani]

2 Thess 2:3 World English Bible

Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Having seen how the popular understanding of the phrase "falling away" creates a problem for the posttribulational interpretation of 2Thess 2, let's get to what we believe is the simple solution.

Though one would never know it to read most Bibles today, the Greek noun apostasia, translated "falling away" in this passage, has an alternate translation: it can also be translated "departure", "departing", or "disappearance". This is significant because this particular translation, according to scholars, denotes the removal of something, as in the physical or spatial sense. Could it be that the Greek word, apostasia, rather than denoting a spiritual falling away or rebellion is actually referring to the removal of God's people at the Rapture?

The interesting thing is that "departure" used to be the predominant translation of the Greek, apostasia; it was found in virtually every early version of the English Bible. Even the Latin Vulgate from around 400 AD translates apostasia to discessio, meaning "departure". So the "departure/removal" translation is by no means a stretch or an anomaly -- it used to be the norm. For whatever reason -- no good one has ever been given -- the translators of the King James Version (published in 1611) decided to render apostasia, "falling away". Subsequently, most English versions followed suit.

From the book: The Coming Days of Awe by T.W. Tramm

Hi ATP,
It cannot mean "Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the (rapture) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction" when rapture is properly understood.

Who is taken away (first)?
Is it the elect?
No. The sinners are taken away first.

"For as were the days of Noah ..... they were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage ..... they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away ..... two men will be in the field, one will be taken and one left , two woman will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken, and one left".
The flood took the sinners away.

Paul says:
"Then we who are alive, who remain ... will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air", (1 Thessalonians 4.17).

So, one left (alive), one taken (dead), those who remain alive are then caught up.
This is how we will know without a doubt that Jesus has returned.

Therefore, 2 Thessalonians 2.3 must mean something else.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

So the Rapture comes first, because the Angels took the wicked out of Sodom first too (remember: it's the story of Noah AND Lot, so your example has to work with both) -

And then the Man of Lawlessness is revealed -

And then Jesus will come -

And raptures us up... Oops. Error! Error! The Rapture sets up the Rapture?

No, apostasy means apostasy, not physical removal.

 

[amani]

Hi Marcus, thanks ......
Did you even read my post? You are misunderstanding me, (Forum reader fatigue I know).

I never said the rapture comes first before anything.... I said it comes last.
Also I disagreed with ATP.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Oops. Sorry. I was wrong.

 

[ATP]

Who is taken away (first)?
Is it the elect?
No. The sinners are taken away first.

"For as were the days of Noah ..... they were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage ..... they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away ..... two men will be in the field, one will be taken and one left , two woman will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken, and one left".
The flood took the sinners away.

Sinners are taken away by what?

I would think "taken away" refers to rapture. The word "airó" means to raise, take up, lift.

Matt 24:39 NIV sounds like it might be an idiom, for rapture language. Similar to Matt 24:36 being an idiom.

 

[ATP]

I never said the rapture comes first before anything.... I said it comes last.
Also I disagreed with ATP.

Last? But if Christians are still being martyred Rev 6:9-11 NIV, then God is a liar and is not protecting them Rev 3:10 NIV.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

God is not a liar. If He watches out for you, even if you die, you'll live forever with Him.

After the Great a Tribulation, the Great Multitude arrive in Heaven. God saves, He does not lose (us).

 

[ATP]

God is not a liar. If He watches out for you, even if you die, you'll live forever with Him.

After the Great a Tribulation, the Great Multitude arrive in Heaven. God saves, He does not lose (us).

But if the hour of trial is being beheaded, then God is a liar Rev 3:10.

 

[amani]

Hi ATP.
Forgive me, I only read the first posts.
You ask "(sinners) Taken away by what?"
Answer: By fire.

I don't think the context of 2nd Thessalonians 3 could fit a rapture.
But I might check the word used later.

And... Yes, the elect are taken away last, (after everything visible is gone).
God will protect his elect.

 

[ATP]

Hi ATP.
Forgive me, I only read the first posts.
You ask "(sinners) Taken away by what?"
Answer: By fire.

I don't think the context of 2nd Thessalonians 3 could fit a rapture.
But I might check the word used later.

And... Yes, the elect are taken away last, (after everything visible is gone).
God will protect his elect.

The word "airó" means to raise, take up, lift. Why would sinners be raised up when they're killed by fire?? That doesn't make sense. Where does scripture prove posttrib?

 

[amani]

Dear ATP,
You are not following.

One 24 hour day future, the world will be completely destroyed by fire.
Everything will be gone, except for the elect of God (they will miraculously survive).
Then, when they are left in nothingness, they will be gathered and taken up, (still alive, never died).

Do you follow?