2 Thessalonians 1:8

[Dave L]

Your claim is said nowhere in the Bible. What you were saying is motor localism, which is practiced by Jehovah witnesses and Oneness.


Colossians 2:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

Colossians 2:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

If you study the ecumenical creeds on the trinity, you'll find that I'm in complete agreement and that you differ from the orthodox position.

 

[mailmandan]

The questioned posed in this thread is what is the gospel and how does one obey it so as not to be in flaming fire per 2 Thess 1:8

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace which is to be believed. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. *Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

 

[mailmandan]

Water and Spirit in John is not about baptism, the NT example of baptism was not yet established. This is seen in Jesus saying to Nicodemus, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things" Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand what He was saying. It is a reference to Ezekiel 36:24-27:

'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

John 4:14 -but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 7:38,39 - Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Excellent post! In John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace which is to be believed. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. *Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

The NT is the LAW of Christ (Galatians 6:2) which Paul said he was under that law (1 Corinthians 9:21). And Christ's NT laws are to be taught to all men (Matthew 28:19-20) and those that do not "obey the gospel of Christ" will be lost per 2 Thess 1:8. If there were no law then there would be nothing to obey nor would there be such a thing as sin/transgression if there were no law (Romans 4:15). The fact men commit transgressions proves there is law that exists. Men have been commanded to believe (Mark 1:15) therefore belief itself is a NT law of Christ that is to be obeyed and there are consequences for not obeying it. Same is true about repentance that has been commanded to all men (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Therefore the fact remains, to not be in flaming fire requires one OBEY the gospel of Christ. Obedience eliminates Luther's false idea of faith only.

 

[mailmandan]

To be born again "born from above" that is done by the Holy Spirit.
John 3:6 -Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

And this is through the Living Word of God.
1 Peter 1:23 -For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Faith is what justifies us before God and one of the clearest passages in the Bible is the "word of faith which we are preaching" (Rom.10:8) In verses 9,10 it is clear where salvation occurs. One makes the confession that "Jesus is Lord" and righteousness results from a believing heart. That is the message (word of faith) that the Apostles were preaching!

We come into contact with the blood of Jesus through faith.
Romans 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-

Another excellent post! We see that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with out mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

the gospel is easy, yet at the same time so complicated many fail to grasp it. As the gtood word says, Narrow is the gate, and few their are who enter it.

what is the gospel?

Rom 10 Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth
Eph 1. Hear the word. and then entrust your eternity to that word
John 3, 4 and 6, Believe in the name of the one who gives life. after chewing on the word of God and drinking what he came to give

if anyone adds to these words. as paul said to the gelation church, they are preaching a false gospel which is not of God

 

[mailmandan]

In Acts 10, was Cornelius saved or unsaved before he / his household was baptized?

Look was Peter says in Acts 11:16-17..."And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift He gave us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way."

Amen! In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

 

[mailmandan]

The NT is the LAW of Christ (Galatians 6:2) which Paul said he was under that law (1 Corinthians 9:21). And Christ's NT laws are to be taught to all men (Matthew 28:19-20) and those that do not "obey the gospel of Christ" will be lost per 2 Thess 1:8. If there were no law then there would be nothing to obey nor would there be such a thing as sin/transgression if there were no law (Romans 4:15). The fact men commit transgressions proves there is law that exists.

Galatians 6:2 says Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." We are not saved by grace plus law, faith plus works, but by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Believers bear one another’s burden out of love and faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:10)

Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Men have been commanded to believe (Mark 1:15) therefore belief itself is a NT law of Christ that is to be obeyed and there are consequences for not obeying it. Same is true about repentance that has been commanded to all men (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Therefore the fact remains, to not be in flaming fire requires one OBEY the gospel of Christ. Obedience eliminates Luther's false idea of faith only.

Believing is of the law of faith, not works. Repentance precedes believing and repentance and believing are inseparable/two sides to the same coin:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your theory on obeying the gospel culminates in salvation by works. Salvation through faith in Christ alone (Romans 4:2-3; Ephesians 2:8,9) is not to be confused with what James refers to "faith only" which is an empty profession of faith that "merely claims" to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's dead. (James 2:14)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

the gospel is easy, yet at the same time so complicated many fail to grasp it. As the gtood word says, Narrow is the gate, and few their are who enter it.

what is the gospel?

--the gospel is something that is taught/preached Mark 16:15; 1 corinthians 9:14

--From 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 peter 4:17; Romans 10:16 the gospel is something that one must be obeyed else one will be lost.

--the gospel Paul preached was the death burial resurrection of Christ 1 corinthians 15:1-4

--there is a death burial and resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized Romans 6:3-6 hence water baptism is how, the only way one obeys the gospel.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Galatians 6:2 says Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." We are not saved by grace plus law, faith plus works, but by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Believers bear one another’s burden out of love and faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:10)

Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Believing is of the law of faith, not works. Repentance precedes believing and repentance and believing are inseparable/two sides to the same coin:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your theory on obeying the gospel culminates in salvation by works. Salvation through faith in Christ alone (Romans 4:2-3; Ephesians 2:8,9) is not to be confused with what James refers to "faith only" which is an empty profession of faith that "merely claims" to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's dead. (James 2:14)

Christ's NT is law (Galatians 6:2) and one is saved by obeying Christ's NT law. (Hebrews 5:9). Not keeping Christ's NT law has one serving "sin unto death" rather than "obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16.


Romans 3:24 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Paul is contrasting faith from the work of flawless, perfect law keeping required by the OT law. Since none, other than Christ, could keep the old law perfectly that means "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God" Galatians 3:11. But man can be freed from sin/justified by obeying the NT law/gospel as those in Rome did Romans 6:17-18.

Why, how can an unbelieving person repent? An unbelieving person does not understand he is lost in sins, does not know anything about repentance or his need to repent.

Salvation is by obedience to the will of God (Hebrews 5:9). The disobedient unrighteous are the ones that will be lost.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

--the gospel is something that is taught/preached Mark 16:15; 1 corinthians 9:14

--From 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 peter 4:17; Romans 10:16 the gospel is something that one must be obeyed else one will be lost.

--the gospel Paul preached was the death burial resurrection of Christ 1 corinthians 15:1-4

--there is a death burial and resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized Romans 6:3-6 hence water baptism is how, the only way one obeys the gospel.

I see you have not changed

you destroy a Greek word, which means to immerse, and make it mean water, when the origional word had nothing specific to do with water

you take the baptism done by the hand of God, and replace it with a baptism done by the hands of man (which is pure blasphemy I may add)

you take a washing of water by the word, and make it into a washing of water by your pastor

you take a cleansing of the blood of Christ, and make it into a cleansing by the unpurified waters of baptism.

Jesus said in john 3 4 and 6, if we want eternal life, we have to believe in him, if we do this out in us will pour rivers of living water (HS) swelling up to eternal life, and given his promise we will never hunger or thirst, never die, live forever, live as long as he lives, have eternal life, and have the promise we will be ressurected personally by him, and delivered to him for judgment.

and in all this. No water baptism required or referenced.

we are saved the way all mankind has been saved since Adam first sin, by Grace through faith, the only difference between us and the OT believers is that they had to look forward, we look back.

 

[mailmandan]

Christ's NT is law (Galatians 6:2) and one is saved by obeying Christ's NT law. (Hebrews 5:9). Not keeping Christ's NT law has one serving "sin unto death" rather than "obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16.

Through your misinterpretation of scripture, you are teaching salvation by works. Bearing one another's burdens and so fulfilling the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) is something Christians do BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved. Works-salvationists tend to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, (unbelievers) or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. (believers) When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Romans 3:24 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Paul is contrasting faith from the work of flawless, perfect law keeping required by the OT law. Since none, other than Christ, could keep the old law perfectly that means "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God" Galatians 3:11. But man can be freed from sin/justified by obeying the NT law/gospel as those in Rome did Romans 6:17-18.

The OT law does not exclude the moral aspect of the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me which good works a Christian could do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

Either we perfectly keep the law, which includes the moral aspect of the law, and we are saved by works or else we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and receive God's imputed righteousness (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). There is no middle ground. It's not Christ did most of it but we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is BELIEVING the gospel.

Why, how can an unbelieving person repent? An unbelieving person does not understand he is lost in sins, does not know anything about repentance or his need to repent.

Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 10:17 - So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. God draws and enables. (John 6:44,65) Acts 16:14 - Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 - 5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

Salvation is by obedience to the will of God (Hebrews 5:9). The disobedient unrighteous are the ones that will be lost.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works salvationists use Hebrews 5:9 to try and support salvation by works by writing a blank check with the word "obey" then filling in whatever amount of works they believe are necessary to accomplish in order to be saved. *Yet only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. *In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I see you have not changed

you destroy a Greek word, which means to immerse, and make it mean water, when the origional word had nothing specific to do with water

you take the baptism done by the hand of God, and replace it with a baptism done by the hands of man (which is pure blasphemy I may add)

you take a washing of water by the word, and make it into a washing of water by your pastor

you take a cleansing of the blood of Christ, and make it into a cleansing by the unpurified waters of baptism.

Jesus said in john 3 4 and 6, if we want eternal life, we have to believe in him, if we do this out in us will pour rivers of living water (HS) swelling up to eternal life, and given his promise we will never hunger or thirst, never die, live forever, live as long as he lives, have eternal life, and have the promise we will be ressurected personally by him, and delivered to him for judgment.

and in all this. No water baptism required or referenced.

we are saved the way all mankind has been saved since Adam first sin, by Grace through faith, the only difference between us and the OT believers is that they had to look forward, we look back.

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).

Proper interpretation therefore means baptizo must be understood by its literal meaning, an immersion unless something in the context shows otherwise. Therefore baptism in Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-6 would all refer to a literal burial, immersion.
Literal immersion in what? Literal water Acts of the Apostles 8:38.

The gospel must be obeyed (2 Thessalonians 1:8) the gospel is death burial & resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and there is a death burial and resurrection that takes place in water baptism (Romans 6:3-6). There is no death burial and resurrection that takes place in saying a 'sinner's prayer' or in faith only or in any kind of 'spirit baptism'.

Improper interpretation is going to a verse where something is being used figuratively, then use that figurative meaning anywhere one wants. Just because water is used figuratively in John 4 does not mean water is used figuratively in Acts of the Apostles 8:38 or John 3:23; John 3:5; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38. In Christ's great commission baptism is commanded and is administered by disciples (man). No spirit baptism' has ever been commanded to men nor can men administered 'spirit baptism. But water baptism has been commanded (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48) and is administered by disciples (man) .... "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

Colossians 2:11-12 in water baptism God removes the body of sin, a circumcision made without hands. Yet the context says nothing at all about a baptism made without hands but speaks of a literal burial-- "buried with Him in baptism"where in ye are risen with Him" There is a literal burial and resurrection in water baptism as Christ was buried and resurrected per the gospel. Again, literal water baptism with man's hands "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." No need for the SPirit to send Phillip to teach and baptize the eunuch when the SPirit could have 'spirit baptized' the eunuch without human hands involved.

We are saved by grace through faith but NT faith INCLUDES baptism:
Eph 2:8-------------------------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then faith must include water baptism.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Through your misinterpretation of scripture, you are teaching salvation by works. Bearing one another's burdens and so fulfilling the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) is something Christians do BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved. Works-salvationists tend to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, (unbelievers) or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. (believers) When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Romans 3:24 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

The OT law does not exclude the moral aspect of the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me which good works a Christian could do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

Either we perfectly keep the law, which includes the moral aspect of the law, and we are saved by works or else we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and receive God's imputed righteousness (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). There is no middle ground. It's not Christ did most of it but we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is BELIEVING the gospel.

Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 10:17 - So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. God draws and enables. (John 6:44,65) Acts 16:14 - Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 - 5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works salvationists use Hebrews 5:9 to try and support salvation by works by writing a blank check with the word "obey" then filling in whatever amount of works they believe are necessary to accomplish in order to be saved. *Yet only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. *In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

--Salvation is NOT by works of merit nor by works of the OT law that required perfection. The Bible does teach salvation is by faithful obedience to God's will (Hebrews 5:9). There is no example of God saving the rebellious, disobedient person who refuses to obey His will.

Both OT and NT have examples of those who obeyed God's will (Noah, Abraham; Paul, the eunuch) and not the first time does the Bible say their obedience earned them, merited them God's grace. Hence any idea that obedience is an attempt to earn brownie points with God is patently false, a straw man argument in an attempt to get around the truth.

--John 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Believing itself is obedience while unbelief is obeying not. Therefore salvation cannot be had until one first believes, that is, until one FIRST OBEYS.

--Romans 6:17-18
Order of events for those in Rome:
1) were servants of righteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified/servants of righteousness.

Obedience BEFORE justification. Obeyong from the heart is doing God's righteousness. How can one be a servant of righteousness BEFORE he even does any righteousness? How can continuing in UNrighteousness ever make one righteous? Not possible, not even sensical.

--love is equated to keeping God's commandments John 14:15. Explain how one can love Christ while at the same time refuse to obey His commandments.

--"one verse theology" leads one to error. One cannot turn to John 3:16 for example and declare 'belief only' saves while at the same time ignore Luke 13:3; Matthew 10:32-33 or Mark 16:16 that make repentance confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation. Paul declared "all the counsel of God'. Paul therefore taught the necessity of believing repenting confessing and being baptized to be saved (Romans 10:9-10; Romans 6:3-6; Acts of the Apostles 26:20)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).

Proper interpretation therefore means baptizo must be understood by its literal meaning, an immersion unless something in the context shows otherwise. Therefore baptism in Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-6 would all refer to a literal burial, immersion.
Literal immersion in what? Literal water Acts of the Apostles 8:38.

The gospel must be obeyed (2 Thessalonians 1:8) the gospel is death burial & resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and there is a death burial and resurrection that takes place in water baptism (Romans 6:3-6). There is no death burial and resurrection that takes place in saying a 'sinner's prayer' or in faith only or in any kind of 'spirit baptism'.

Improper interpretation is going to a verse where something is being used figuratively, then use that figurative meaning anywhere one wants. Just because water is used figuratively in John 4 does not mean water is used figuratively in Acts of the Apostles 8:38 or John 3:23; John 3:5; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38. In Christ's great commission baptism is commanded and is administered by disciples (man). No spirit baptism' has ever been commanded to men nor can men administered 'spirit baptism. But water baptism has been commanded (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48) and is administered by disciples (man) .... "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

Colossians 2:11-12 in water baptism God removes the body of sin, a circumcision made without hands. Yet the context says nothing at all about a baptism made without hands but speaks of a literal burial-- "buried with Him in baptism"where in ye are risen with Him" There is a literal burial and resurrection in water baptism as Christ was buried and resurrected per the gospel. Again, literal water baptism with man's hands "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." No need for the SPirit to send Phillip to teach and baptize the eunuch when the SPirit could have 'spirit baptized' the eunuch without human hands involved.

We are saved by grace through faith but NT faith INCLUDES baptism:
Eph 2:8-------------------------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then faith must include water baptism.

Mr Bruce is wrong

the baptism Jesus spoke of was the cross, he also said we would be baptized with that same baptizm

the baptism in acts 10 was not water

the baptism of the children of Israel in moses was not water.

if he is wrong on this, Mose likely he is wrong in others, and can not be trusted,

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Mr Bruce is wrong

the baptism Jesus spoke of was the cross, he also said we would be baptized with that same baptizm

the baptism in acts 10 was not water

the baptism of the children of Israel in moses was not water.

if he is wrong on this, Mose likely he is wrong in others, and can not be trusted,

FF Bruce is absolutely correct about proper interpretation. One cannot in a 'willy-nilly' fashion make words figurative or literal just to conform the Bible to fit one's personal theology.

Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Clearly the Gentiles were commanded WATER baptism. Later in Acts 15 the Apostles met to discuss if the Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved as some false Judaizers were teaching Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2. During that meeting Peter said "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles)." verse 11. Therefore Jews and Gentiles (everyone) will be saved in a 'like manner' way.

The Jews in Acts 2 were saved when they obeyed the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. In the 'like manner' way Gentiles in Acts 10 were commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

It was always God plan that salvation would first go to the Jews then the Gentiles (Romans 1:16). In Acts 10 we have the gospel coming to the Gentiles and the first Gentiles converts being saved through water baptism as the Jews were in Acts 2. This is why Peter said to those Jews "can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized". Jews thought salvation only belonged to the Jews but Peter shows anyone that tried to forbid the Gentiles from being water baptized would be trying to thwart God's plan in salvation going to the Gentiles for salvation comes through water baptism to Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

FF Bruce is absolutely correct about proper interpretation. One cannot in a 'willy-nilly' fashion make words figurative or literal just to conform the Bible to fit one's personal theology.

Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Clearly the Gentiles were commanded WATER baptism. Later in Acts 15 the Apostles met to discuss if the Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved as some false Judaizers were teaching Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2. During that meeting Peter said "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles)." verse 11. Therefore Jews and Gentiles (everyone) will be saved in a 'like manner' way.

The Jews in Acts 2 were saved when they obeyed the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. In the 'like manner' way Gentiles in Acts 10 were commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

It was always God plan that salvation would first go to the Jews then the Gentiles (Romans 1:16). In Acts 10 we have the gospel coming to the Gentiles and the first Gentiles converts being saved through water baptism as the Jews were in Acts 2. This is why Peter said to those Jews "can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized". Jews thought salvation only belonged to the Jews but Peter shows anyone that tried to forbid the Gentiles from being water baptized would be trying to thwart God's plan in salvation going to the Gentiles for salvation comes through water baptism to Jew and Gentile alike.

lol I said you have not changed

I showed 4 instances in the NT where baptism is not water

you are a man follower

 

[mailmandan]

--Salvation is NOT by works of merit nor by works of the OT law that required perfection.

So you teach that salvation is by "these" works and just not "those" works. The Bible does not teach salvation by works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

The Bible does teach salvation is by faithful obedience to God's will (Hebrews 5:9).

There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

As I already explained in post #172, in regards to Hebrews 5:9, only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. *In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

There is no example of God saving the rebellious, disobedient person who refuses to obey His will.

Those who refuse to obey His will by believing in the Son (John 6:40) in order to receive eternal life are in rebellion, are lost (John 3:18) and are characterized as disobedient.

Both OT and NT have examples of those who obeyed God's will (Noah, Abraham; Paul, the eunuch) and not the first time does the Bible say their obedience earned them, merited them God's grace. Hence any idea that obedience is an attempt to earn brownie points with God is patently false, a straw man argument in an attempt to get around the truth.

Both OT and NT saints are saved on the basis of faith and not on the basis of acts of obedience which followed and were produced "out of" faith. Seeking salvation based on the merit of multiple acts of obedience is salvation by works, no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. It's not a straw man argument and you can't have it both ways.

--John 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Believing itself is obedience while unbelief is obeying not.

I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Therefore salvation cannot be had until one first believes, that is, until one FIRST OBEYS.

Right there! Clear cut case of salvation by works, which demonstrates that you don't believe.

--Romans 6:17-18
Order of events for those in Rome:
1) were servants of righteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified/servants of righteousness.

Obedience BEFORE justification. Obeyong from the heart is doing God's righteousness. How can one be a servant of righteousness BEFORE he even does any righteousness? How can continuing in UNrighteousness ever make one righteous? Not possible, not even sensical.

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow. As I already explained in post #172. Works-salvationists tend to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, (unbelievers) or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. (believers) When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

*Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

--love is equated to keeping God's commandments John 14:15. Explain how one can love Christ while at the same time refuse to obey His commandments.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Believers love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) and the love of God has been poured out into the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

--"one verse theology" leads one to error.

It doesn't lead to error when you properly understand what it means to "believe in Him" unto salvation. Saving belief goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief and involves faith, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Exclusively in Christ and not in works.

One cannot turn to John 3:16 for example and declare 'belief only' saves while at the same time ignore Luke 13:3; Matthew 10:32-33 or Mark 16:16 that make repentance confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation.

I can see that your flawed gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Those who understand what it means to believe and be saved, understand that repentance precedes saving belief and repentance and saving belief are two sides to the same coin. In regards to Matthew 10:32-33, in context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus (by the Holy Spirit - 1 Corinthians 12:3) are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond obtaining salvation, since salvation is found only in Jesus Christ (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6). Now the word for "deny" is an aorist tense which means that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times during a weak moment (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisees and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Paul declared "all the counsel of God'. Paul therefore taught the necessity of believing repenting confessing and being baptized to be saved (Romans 10:9-10; Romans 6:3-6; Acts of the Apostles 26:20)

Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you are attempting to "patch together" your flawed gospel plan. Repenting precedes believing the gospel/faith in Jesus Christ (Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" repentance unto life/saving belief in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

lol I said you have not changed

I showed 4 instances in the NT where baptism is not water

you are a man follower

I never said all the baptisms mentioned in the NT refer to water baptism. Yet the "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) that is in effect in this gospel dispensation today that saves (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21 etc) is water baptism of Christ's great commission.