2 Thessalonians 1:8

[Ernest T. Bass]

So you teach that salvation is by "these" works and just not "those" works. The Bible does not teach salvation by works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

As I already explained in post #172, in regards to Hebrews 5:9, only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. *In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Those who refuse to obey His will by believing in the Son (John 6:40) in order to receive eternal life are in rebellion, are lost (John 3:18) and are characterized as disobedient.

Both OT and NT saints are saved on the basis of faith and not on the basis of acts of obedience which followed and were produced "out of" faith. Seeking salvation based on the merit of multiple acts of obedience is salvation by works, no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. It's not a straw man argument and you can't have it both ways.

I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Right there! Clear cut case of salvation by works, which demonstrates that you don't believe.

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow. As I already explained in post #172. Works-salvationists tend to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, (unbelievers) or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. (believers) When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

*Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

--it takes doing the will of God to become saved and remain saved. All impenitent disobedient people will be lost.

--Hebrews 5:9 shows Christ saves those who obey Him. Anyone can obey that chooses to do so but the verse makes obedience a condition one must meet in order for Christ to save. Christ is NOT the author of salvation unto all them that live in disobedience.

--as I pointed out before, John 3:36 ASV shows that belief is obedience. Since one must believe BEFORE he can be saved then that means one must first obey (believe) BEFORE he can be saved. One must FIRST OBEY by believing repenting of sin confessing Christ and submitting to baptism THEN one is saved. Believing therefore is a work, an obedient work so there goes Luther's faith only. The fact one must OBEY the gospel to not be in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:8) kills faith only. The fact one must repent in order to not perish (Luke 13:3) kills faith only.

Romans 6:16 the Bible gives two options 1) saved 2) lost. There is no other option for man. Paul puts forth both of these options in Romans 6:16:
1) sin unto death>>>>lost
2) obedience unto righteousness >>>> saved

When asking those who follow Luther's faith only which they serve. they do not say they serve sin unto death yet faith only prevents them from saying they serve obedience unto righteousness leaving them in a rock and hard place. I serve obedience UNTO righteousness. Paul did NOT say one obeys 'because' he already is righteous but one obeys in order to be righteous.

You point out yourself Romans 10:9-10

Believes (obedience) UNTO righteousness
confession (obedience) UNTO salvation

Obedience BEFORE salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I never said all the baptisms mentioned in the NT refer to water baptism. Yet the "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) that is in effect in this gospel dispensation today that saves (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21 etc) is water baptism of Christ's great commission.

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water.

next!

 

[FollowHim]

I personally believe we should follow that gospel we will be judged by.

It was Col 1:25 . . the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations . .

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1Co 11:2 . . and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Many choose to simplify the gospel, to judge others and assume the other party disagrees.
A forum allows a few sentences to be written, and a kingdom is established. It shows how absurd and arrogant some are.
I can know little but have met Jesus and be His sheep, equally know all theology yet have a closed impure lost heart.
To me if you love Jesus and His words, following Him, Amen.

Listening to the fruit of the Spirit does not lie. The apostles showed what over time matters. God bless you

 

[mailmandan]

--it takes doing the will of God to become saved and remain saved.

As I already explained, in John 6:40, we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. In John 3:18, Jesus also said - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. His same will to become saved keeps us saved.

All impenitent disobedient people will be lost.

Descriptive of unbelievers.

--Hebrews 5:9 shows Christ saves those who obey Him. Anyone can obey that chooses to do so but the verse makes obedience a condition one must meet in order for Christ to save. Christ is NOT the author of salvation unto all them that live in disobedience.

You are twisting Hebrews 5:9 to teach salvation by works. As I already explained in post #172. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) *In either sense, only believers obey Him. Living in disobedience characterizes unbelievers, not believers and unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. Many will find that out the hard way one day. (Matthew 7:22-23)

--as I pointed out before, John 3:36 ASV shows that belief is obedience.

As I already pointed out in post #178, John 3:36 HCSB shows that to obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son. Choosing to believe in the Son is the act of obedience that saves. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow.

Since one must believe BEFORE he can be saved then that means one must first obey (believe) BEFORE he can be saved. One must FIRST OBEY by believing repenting of sin confessing Christ and submitting to baptism THEN one is saved.

This is false. You are turning salvation through faith into a multi step formula that culminates in salvation by water baptism. You clearly teach salvation by works. We are saved the moment that we believe (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) and those who believe have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe. I've heard people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Water baptism "follows" repentance unto life/believing in Him unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17:18)

 

[mailmandan]

Believing therefore is a work, an obedient work so there goes Luther's faith only.

Believing is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). I don't recall Luther teaching salvation by "faith only" - per James 2:14-24 - salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith and I certainly don't teach that. We are saved by faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not by works. (Romans 4:2-3; Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence the "alone" which is not to be confused with "faith only" per James, which is an empty profession of faith that merely claims to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of resulting evidential works that it's dead.

The fact one must OBEY the gospel to not be in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:8) kills faith only.

I don't promote "faith only" (empty profession of faith/dead faith) as constituting authentic faith, so your argument does not kill obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel, which kills your argument of equating obeying the gospel as salvation by works.

The fact one must repent in order to not perish (Luke 13:3) kills faith only.

Luke 13:3 does not kill salvation through faith in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8,9) and those who have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and becoming saved. The problem with your formula is you reduce believing into mere "mental assent" belief and place repentance "after" believing and re-define it as moral self-reformation. According to your multi step flawed plan of salvation, it's 1. believe (but still lost) 2. repent (but still lost) 3. confess (but still lost) 4. get water baptized (finally saved) which does not line up with scripture. (Luke 8:12; Acts 3:19; 10:8-10; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 20:21; 26:18 etc..). For someone to say they truly repented, but they don't believe the gospel is an oxymoron. For someone to say they believe the gospel, but they never repented is also an oxymoron. Where you have one, you must have the other. Repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin. Repent (change of mind) - new direction of that change of mind - believe the gospel and SAVED. (Romans 1:16)

Romans 6:16 the Bible gives two options 1) saved 2) lost. There is no other option for man. Paul puts forth both of these options in Romans 6:16:
1) sin unto death>>>>lost
2) obedience unto righteousness >>>> saved

I already explained this in post #178. There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, (unbelievers) or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. (believers) When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

*Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

When asking those who follow Luther's faith only which they serve. they do not say they serve sin unto death yet faith only prevents them from saying they serve obedience unto righteousness leaving them in a rock and hard place.

This is a straw man argument and it's obvious that you don't understand what James means by "faith only" in James 2:24 and you also misinterpret James to teach that we are saved by faith AND WORKS.

I serve obedience UNTO righteousness.

Serving salvation by works is not serving obedience unto righteousness. It's remaining unrighteous in unbelief.

Paul did NOT say one obeys 'because' he already is righteous but one obeys in order to be righteous.

One obeys the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel in order to be righteous. One then obeys "afterwards" by accomplishing multiple acts of obedience/works "because" he is already righteous. You can't seem to grasp the difference.

You point out yourself Romans 10:9-10

Believes (obedience) UNTO righteousness
confession (obedience) UNTO salvation

So in your flawed view, believes unto righteousness means still unrighteous? This is not a two step plan of becoming saved, as in believes unto righteousness today (but still lost) confession made next week and finally saved next week. As I already explained, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation (and if they were, it would contradict multiple passages of scripture - John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6 etc..) but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching. This kills salvation by water baptism, because believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation PRECEDES water baptism in your multi step plan of salvation.

Obedience BEFORE salvation.

The obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel BEFORE salvation. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Multiple acts of obedience/works then "follow" salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

next!

You fail at interpretation. Just because "water" is used figuratively in one verse (John 4) does not mean it is used figuratively in all other verses as John 3.

John 3:5-----------------SPirit+++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13-------------Spirit+++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------------Holy Ghost+++++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>>saved

The Bible being its own best commentary clearly ells us what water of John 3:5 refers to...water baptism.....a laver of water.

Jn 3:23 "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."
A reference to LITERAL water baptism. Christ's water baptism of the great commission replaced John's water baptism as the means to how one today is born again.

Bad interpretation gets one into error.

Next!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You fail at interpretation. Just because "water" is used figuratively in one verse (John 4) does not mean it is used figuratively in all other verses as John 3.

John 3:5-----------------SPirit+++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13-------------Spirit+++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------------Holy Ghost+++++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>>saved

The Bible being its own best commentary clearly ells us what water of John 3:5 refers to...water baptism.....a laver of water.

Jn 3:23 "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."
A reference to LITERAL water baptism. Christ's water baptism of the great commission replaced John's water baptism as the means to how one today is born again.

Bad interpretation gets one into error.

Next!

In John 3 jesus told nicodemus how to be born again (John 3:16) no mention of baptism

in John 6, jesus told us how to live forever, never die, by ever hunger or thirst, and be assured you will raise again

how?

1. eat the food which endures to eternal life
2. eat the bread fro heaven
3. Earth his flesh and drink his blood
4. Drink of the spirit, it is the spirit who gives life,
5. Faith in Christ ( which comes from doing the above)

no mention of baptism anywhere

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

As I already explained, in John 6:40, we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. In John 3:18, Jesus also said - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. His same will to become saved keeps us saved.

Descriptive of unbelievers.

You are twisting Hebrews 5:9 to teach salvation by works. As I already explained in post #172. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) *In either sense, only believers obey Him. Living in disobedience characterizes unbelievers, not believers and unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. Many will find that out the hard way one day. (Matthew 7:22-23)

As I already pointed out in post #178, John 3:36 HCSB shows that to obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son. Choosing to believe in the Son is the act of obedience that saves. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow.

This is false. You are turning salvation through faith into a multi step formula that culminates in salvation by water baptism. You clearly teach salvation by works. We are saved the moment that we believe (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) and those who believe have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe. I've heard people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Water baptism "follows" repentance unto life/believing in Him unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17:18)

--Matthew 7:21 it takes DOING the will of God to enter the kingdom. God has commanded water baptism therefore DOING in submitting to God's command to be baptized is necessary to entering the kingdom.

Mt 7:21----------doeth the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Jn 3:5------------born again (Spirit & water)>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom

Just one way to be saved/born again/enter the kingdom, no alternatives, then there is a definite connection between being born again and DOING the will of God. Again, God has commanded baptism and those that submit to God's will in being baptized are the ones who doing God's will and are born again.


--Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto (unto who?) all them that obey him;" For those who have not been tainted by man made teachings can easily see that Christ saves but does not save just anyone unconditionally. Christ saves those who conditionally obey Him. No verse says Christ unconditionally saves the disobedient. The verse does not first save the disobedient then after they are saved they can then obey. That would be a rewrite of the verse.

John 3:36 ASV...belief is a form of obedience as is repentance, confession and submitting to baptism. Therefore "obey" of Heb 9:5 INCLUDES believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism.

In some places, as John 3:16 "believeth" is used as a synecdoche (a part for the whole) where "believeth" INCLUDES repentance, confession and baptism. Example, in 1 Peter 3:21 peter says 'baptism doth also now save us'. Peter is NOT saying "baptism ALONE" saves but baptism is used as a synecdoche (part for the whole) where "baptism" INCLUDES belief, repentance and confession.

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:...."
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together,..."

Who were the ones that "believed" in v44? The ones baptized in verse 41 for unbelievers reject baptism. Here then we have a case where "believed" of v44 INCLUDES being baptized per v41.

Therefore salvation is by OBEDIENCE to the will of God and not by works of merit or the perfect flawless works required by the OT law of Moses. You cannot provide an example from the NT gospel of one being saved while remaining in impenitent disobedience to the will of God.

1 John 3:10 whosoever continues to not obey God continues to not be of God

Belief and confession are not the same thing. One can believe but if he does not confess he cannot be saved. "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" John 12:42. Therefore the 'beleiveth" of Jn 3:16 for example requires and includes one to confess.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In John 3 jesus told nicodemus how to be born again (John 3:16) no mention of baptism

in John 6, jesus told us how to live forever, never die, by ever hunger or thirst, and be assured you will raise again

how?

1. eat the food which endures to eternal life
2. eat the bread fro heaven
3. Earth his flesh and drink his blood
4. Drink of the spirit, it is the spirit who gives life,
5. Faith in Christ ( which comes from doing the above)

no mention of baptism anywhere

The "born of water" is reference to water baptism.

John 3:5-------------SPirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----------Spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------------Holy Ghost++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

Water of Jn 3:5 refers to baptized of 1 Cor 12:13 that refers to laver of water, baptismal font of Tts 3:5.

The reason Pharisees as Nicodemus were not born again was due to their rejection of John's water baptism (Luke 7:30). Those that rejected John's baptism were rejecting the counsel of God as those who reject Jesus' baptism of the great commission reject the counsel of God, rejecting the gospel, Acts of the Apostles 2:41.

Those not baptized, do not obey the command to be baptized, are culpable for their own disobedience to God's will. God is not culpable for those not baptized/born again. If being born again were something out of man's control then how can men, as Nicodemus, be rightfully justly condemned. But since being born again occurs at water baptism, then those rejecting water baptism have the accountability, culpability upon themselves.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The "born of water" is reference to water baptism.

John 3:5-------------SPirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----------Spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------------Holy Ghost++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

Water of Jn 3:5 refers to baptized of 1 Cor 12:13 that refers to laver of water, baptismal font of Tts 3:5.

The reason Pharisees as Nicodemus were not born again was due to their rejection of John's water baptism (Luke 7:30). Those that rejected John's baptism were rejecting the counsel of God as those who reject Jesus' baptism of the great commission reject the counsel of God, rejecting the gospel, Acts of the Apostles 2:41.

Those not baptized, do not obey the command to be baptized, are culpable for their own disobedience to God's will. God is not culpable for those not baptized/born again. If being born again were something out of man's control then how can men, as Nicodemus, be rightfully justly condemned. But since being born again occurs at water baptism, then those rejecting water baptism have the accountability, culpability upon themselves.

Wrong

if it was Jesus would have said when he told Nicodemus how to be born again. That God gave his only son that whoever believes in him and is baptized in water will never die. But has eternal Life

the absence of the word baptism anyplace in the passage destroys your argument

 

[Enow]

2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

The implication of the verse is if one does not want to be lost in flaming fire facing God's vengeance then one must obey the gospel of Christ.

What is the gospel of Christ and how does one obey that gospel?

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Paul says the gospel he preached was the DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTON of Christ.

How does one obey the historical events of the gospel, that is, obey the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

Romans 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."

When one is water baptized, the old man of sin DIES being BURIED in a watery grave and then RAISED UP FROM (resurrected) from that watery grave to walk in newness of life (born again). This death, burial and resurrection does not happen when one says a sinner's prayer or when one has faith alone but happens only when one humbly submits himself to the will of God in water baptism where God does the work in cutting away the body of sin, (Col 2).

Romans 6:17-18
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

The word 'form" (typo) means a pattern, an example. That form of doctrine those Jewish coverts in Rome had obeyed from the heart was water baptism with water baptism being a form, a pattern of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Having obeyed God's will to be water baptized (form of Christ's death, burial and resurrection) then they were made free from sin (justified) having had their sins forgiven/remitted/the body of sin cut away by God.

You are assuming that baptism is about water baptism rather than the baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus baptizes you by for believing in Him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are assuming that baptism is about water baptism rather than the baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus baptizes you by for believing in Him.

Amen

trying to replace the baptism of God with the baptism of man

I think Jesus called this blasphemy

 

[Enow]

Amen

It is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciples but hardly a requirement for salvation.

trying to replace the baptism of God with the baptism of man

I think Jesus called this blasphemy

It is standing apart from the truth and thus apostasy for sure as a work denying Him as being able to save any that believe even on His name to be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciples but hardly a requirement for salvation.



It is standing apart from the truth and thus apostasy for sure as a work denying Him as being able to save any that believe even on His name to be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Yep. No water baptism mentioned

 

[FollowHim]

You are assuming that baptism is about water baptism rather than the baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus baptizes you by for believing in Him.

Are they not connected?
We are a people of water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism. How you work this out varies.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are they not connected?
We are a people of water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism. How you work this out varies.

No they are not

they are two events in a persons life

one saves the sound eternally and leads to the anointing of the spirit

one is the act of a good conscious towards God and is either a fruit of righteousness for one who has been baptized by Gods or a fruit of the flesh for someone who has not yet been born of God,

 

[mailmandan]

--Matthew 7:21 it takes DOING the will of God to enter the kingdom. God has commanded water baptism therefore DOING in submitting to God's command to be baptized is necessary to entering the kingdom.

Getting water baptized is doing God's will "AFTER" we have been saved by believing in Him. (Acts 10:43-47)

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. *No mention of baptism.

Mt 7:21----------doeth the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Jn 3:5------------born again (Spirit & water)>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom

We do the will of the Father (in order to become saved) by believing in him. (John 6:40) Water in John 3:5 is not water baptism. Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

The word "water" is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. *So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is biased and unwarranted.

Just one way to be saved/born again/enter the kingdom, no alternatives, then there is a definite connection between being born again and DOING the will of God.

Man's part is believing. God's part is supplying the new birth.

Again, God has commanded baptism and those that submit to God's will in being baptized are the ones who doing God's will and are born again.

God has commanded water baptism (along with multiple other things) AFTER we have been saved through faith in Christ. We are not saved by faith in water baptism or faith in other works.

--Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto (unto who?) all them that obey him;" For those who have not been tainted by man made teachings can easily see that Christ saves but does not save just anyone unconditionally. Christ saves those who conditionally obey Him. No verse says Christ unconditionally saves the disobedient. The verse does not first save the disobedient then after they are saved they can then obey. That would be a rewrite of the verse.

It's you who has been tainted by man made teachings. You simply write a blank check with the word "obey" then fill in whatever amount of works that you feel are necessary to accomplish in order to become saved, yet I already explained otherwise in posts #172 and #184.

John 3:36 ASV...belief is a form of obedience as is repentance, confession and submitting to baptism. Therefore "obey" of Heb 9:5 INCLUDES believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism.

This is Campbellite eisegesis. You continue to confuse obeying Him in order to become saved with obeying Him AFTER we have been saved and the end result for you is salvation by works. John 3:36 (HCSB) - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son (hence, does not obey Him) will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. Repent precedes believe and the word of faith is in our mouth and heart. Not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together. Water baptism "follows" obey by choosing to believe and salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

In some places, as John 3:16 "believeth" is used as a synecdoche (a part for the whole) where "believeth" INCLUDES repentance, confession and baptism. Example, in 1 Peter 3:21 peter says 'baptism doth also now save us'. Peter is NOT saying "baptism ALONE" saves but baptism is used as a synecdoche (part for the whole) where "baptism" INCLUDES belief, repentance and confession.

This is absolutely false. I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ several years ago so I understand their schemes in trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. Repentance precedes "believeth" and they are two sides to the same coin and the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER so believing and confession are not two separates steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Water baptism "follows" believing unto salvation. In regards to 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the WICKED in Noah's day came in CONTACT WITH THE WATER and they all PERISHED.

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:...."
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together,..."

They that gladly received his word were "afterwards" baptized, just as we see in Acts 10:43-47. Believes/remission of sins "precedes" water baptism.

Who were the ones that "believed" in v44? The ones baptized in verse 41 for unbelievers reject baptism. Here then we have a case where "believed" of v44 INCLUDES being baptized per v41.

Baptism is not included in believes. Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism. The one's who believed and were saved were "afterwards" baptized. Not all unbelievers reject baptism. There are many people who attend false religions and cults who don't truly believe in Christ unto salvation, yet have been water baptized anyway because they believe it will save them (along with other works)

Therefore salvation is by OBEDIENCE to the will of God and not by works of merit or the perfect flawless works required by the OT law of Moses. You cannot provide an example from the NT gospel of one being saved while remaining in impenitent disobedience to the will of God.

The will of God in becoming saved is to believe in Him. (John 6:40) This does not simply mean believe "mental assent" in the existence of Jesus, but believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Salvation by faith + works of any kind which follow (including water baptism) would be works of merit. You can't have it both ways. Trusting in works for salvation (and not in Christ alone) is remaining in impenitent disobedience to the will of God and is also remaining in unbelief. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

1 John 3:10 whosoever continues to not obey God continues to not be of God

Ironic. 1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Belief and confession are not the same thing. One can believe but if he does not confess he cannot be saved.

Yet the word of faith is in the mouth and heart of believers. (Romans 10:8)

"Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" John 12:42. Therefore the 'beleiveth" of Jn 3:16 for example requires and includes one to confess.

Here you have another misunderstanding. In John 12:42, do we know the real condition of these "believing" rulers' hearts? Was it (mere mental assent belief James 2:19) or (trust and reliance saving belief John 3:16)? We do know that they loved men's praises (v. 43) more than God's (Jn. 5:44). Some may argue that the unwillingness of the chief rulers to confess Christ in this isolated situation throws doubt on the complete genuineness of their faith and others may argue that they simply have a weak moment in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees. Does this mean they never confessed Christ at all?

The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these chief rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were saved or not saved? If the chief rulers truly believed (trusted in Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment, then they were saved (John 3:16). If their lack of confession was the result of a lack of genuine belief, then they are not saved (John 3:18). Regardless, this does not support your 4 step formula that culminates in water baptism for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

The "born of water" is reference to water baptism.

John 3:5-------------SPirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----------Spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------------Holy Ghost++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

Water of Jn 3:5 refers to baptized of 1 Cor 12:13 that refers to laver of water, baptismal font of Tts 3:5.

The "born of water" is NOT a reference to water baptism.

John 3:5-----------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom - *no mention of baptism.
John 7:38,39------Spirit++++++++++++++living water>>>>>>>>>>>those BELIEVING IN HIM would receive
John 4:10,14------drink++++++++++++++water/living water>>everlasting life
1 Cor 12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++Spirit/baptized>>>>>>>>>into one body/drink into one Spirit
Titus 3:5----------not by works of righteousness which we have done++++++but according to His mercy He saved us>>>>>>>through the washing of regeneration/renewing of the Holy Spirit
Eph 5:26----------washing of water>>>>by the word *not by water baptism.

Neither Jesus or Paul were referring to baptismal regeneration but to cleansing, which is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20, but by spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." *So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is biased and unwarranted.

 

[Enow]

Are they not connected?
We are a people of water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism. How you work this out varies.

When the Gentiles had received the promise of the Holy Spirit before water baptism in Acts 10:43-48, then they are not one and the same. Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciples but not a requirement for salvation as is evident in scripture.