22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

I'm not sure what I said to make you think 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thes 4-16-17 are different events. But to set the record straight, I do understand them to be describing the same event.

However, I don't think that neither Thessalonians nor Corinthians are talking about either of the 2 resurrections in Revelation.

Both resurrections in Revelation occur AFTER Jesus comes to the earth and after Armageddon (Rev 20:4 & 20:13). But according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, we will meet Jesus in the air, some time BEFORE Jesus' feet actually touch the ground.

I don't think we are that far apart on this issue. A few details maybe, but not that bad.

Rich your now on the backpeddle motion

You claimed that "No Resurrection" was seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and in the same breath you claim 1 Corinthians 15:52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are "The Same Event"

Rich please explain for the forum the words

"The Dead Shall Be Raised Incorruptible"?

Waiting?

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry, but the church was still hid in God when Jesus was here. The church was the mystery that wasn't know until God revealed it to Paul. The church officially began on the day of Pentecost, but it was some time before the significance of that event was totally understood. Acts is a transition between the OT and the NT.

You gotta stop reading other people's mail and acting on it. Jesus addressed Israel, not the Gentiles, and the church wasn't even around when Jesus spoke those words in Matthew. He was describing the events in Revelation. The church has a completely different end than that of Israel, namely it will be gathered together with Jesus in the air before anything in Revelation occurs. Revelation is the final fulfillment of God's promises to Israel about a real, land base, kingdom on earth. The same one God told Abraham and others to view with their eyes. Eyes don't see spirit.

Rich your in denial of the very clear scripture before your eyes, it's prophetic words of future events, and "Israel" isn't going to be killed and persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ as verse (9) shows below, it will be the "Church"

Your claims are so far out from orthodoxy it's hard to take them seriously, and that's a big understatement

The scripture in the Gospel of Matthew below was written prophetically to the "Future Church" regarding events that would take place in the "Future" at the time of the end

"Ye Shall Be Hated Of All Nations For My Name's Sake"

Matthew 24:4-14KJV
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Keraz]

Could you give me at least one of the 160 verses that say the church is the 10 Northern tribes?

As the continued existence of the House of Israel is God's secret, Amos 9:9, there is no verse that straight out says that. Galatians 6:14-16 is the nearest; Paul says there; that Christians are the Israel of God.
Jesus said He came to save the lost House of Israel, Matthew 15:24 and that He took the Kingdom away from the House of Judah and gave it to the peoples who display the fruit of the Spirit. Matthew 21:43
These scriptures and the whole New Testament teaching show how ethnic Jewish Israel is no longer special to God. His faithful people are those individuals who believe in Jesus and keep the Commandments. Jews, and of every tribe, race, nation and language. That the majority will consist mainly of the peoples descended from the 10 Northern tribes, is not out concern. All will be revealed after the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Isaiah 35:4-5, Jeremiah 23:20

Yes; God did help the Zionist Jews to become a nation in a small part of the holy Land, He did that for His own purposes; to have a visible Israel while He worked with the true Israelites; literally, the Overcomers for Him.
The Jews have never acknowledged His help and now they face Judgment and punishment, as over 20 Prophesies tell us. Only a small Christian remnant will survive to join with their brethren. Jeremiah 50:4-5

On a side not, do you find it odd that Jesus would return the authority God gave him? Assuming Jesus is God, wouldn't that mean one part of God has more authority than the other part?

1 Corinthians 15:24 says that King Jesus will hand the Kingdom and His authority to Judge, back to God the Father.
Almighty God is the final Judge; Revelation 20:11-15
The equal Trinity is a false church teaching. [but please, I do not want to argue this issue!]

 

[Rich R]

Rich your now on the backpeddle motion

You claimed that "No Resurrection" was seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and in the same breath you claim 1 Corinthians 15:52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are "The Same Event"

I said the word "resurrection" is not found in either of those two verses. True or false? Look at the Greek if you want.

Rich please explain for the forum the words

"The Dead Shall Be Raised Incorruptible"?

Maybe it would be better if I told you what it doesn't say, namely, "The dead shall be resurrected incorruptible.

"Raise" and "resurrected" are related, but not identical. God must have had a reason for using the appropriate word in the different verses.

1 Corinthians 15:52

KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can you find and quote where I said Thessalonians and Corinthians are talking about two different events?

What I've consistently said is that the raising in Thessalonians and Corinthians is not the same as the resurrections Revelation 20:5.

 

[Keraz]

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Two different events.
Proved by how the Thess quote is about the glorious Return of Jesus to reign for the next thousand years. Paralleled by Matthew 24:30-31

The 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

 

[Truth7t7]

Can you find and quote where I said Thessalonians and Corinthians are talking about two different events?

What I've consistently said is that raising is not the same as the resurrection Revelation 20:5.

Once again, your still on the backpeddle in diversion, please answer the direct question in bold red highlight below, this is a "2nd Attempt"

You claimed that "No Resurrection" was seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and in the same breath you claim 1 Corinthians 15:52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are "The Same Event"

Rich please explain for the forum the words

"The Dead Shall Be Raised Incorruptible"?

Waiting?

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Truth7t7]

Two different events.
Proved by how the Thess quote is about the glorious Return of Jesus to reign for the next thousand years. Paralleled by Matthew 24:30-31

The 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

We Disagree, same Trump, same dead being raised, same exact event in parallel teachings

 

[Rich R]

Rich your in denial of the very clear scripture before your eyes, it's prophetic words of future events, and "Israel" isn't going to be killed and persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ as verse (9) shows below, it will be the "Church"

Your claims are so far out from orthodoxy it's hard to take them seriously, and that's a big understatement

The scripture in the Gospel of Matthew below was written prophetically to the "Future Church" regarding events that would take place in the "Future" at the time of the end

"Ye Shall Be Hated Of All Nations For My Name's Sake"

Matthew 24:4-14KJV
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

There you go again! You are reading for yourself what Jesus said to somebody else. Do you realize that Jesus was speaking to the same people in Matthew that God told to bring a sacrifice to Him every morning and evening? Why do you act on Matthew while ignoring Leviticus? They are both meant for the same people and it's not the church.

You just assume Matthew was writing about the future church and then you read it into the text. If Jesus told them anything about the church, then God was lying when He told Paul that nobody knew about the mystery until He told it to him. Matthew is describing the events in Revelation, and the church will be with Jesus in the air during most of Revelation. We will finally leave the air and come to earth when Jesus comes to earth and that's not until after the tribulation and beast.

 

[Rich R]

Once again, your still on the backpeddle in diversion, please answer the direct question in bold red highlight below, this is a "2nd Attempt"

And this is a 2nd attempt to get you to give me a quote. I could say that you said God is the devil, but I wouldn't be able to quote any actual words that you wrote along those lines.

 

[Keraz]

We Disagree, same Trump, same dead being raised, same exact event in parallel teachings

Complete avoidance of the scriptural proofs I presented. Your disagreement is invalid.

 

[The Light]

Once again, your still on the backpeddle in diversion, please answer the direct question in bold red highlight below, this is a "2nd Attempt"

You claimed that "No Resurrection" was seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and in the same breath you claim 1 Corinthians 15:52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are "The Same Event"

Rich please explain for the forum the words

"The Dead Shall Be Raised Incorruptible"?

Waiting?

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Let's simplify it.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME EVENT.

1 Corinthians 15 occurs at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. We can see this coming in Matt24. This occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Also, He sends His angels at this coming to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Completely different than the coming of Jesus in 1 Thes 4. THE LORD HIMSELF COMES. The bridegroom is coming for the bride. This occurs at the trump of God or voice of God.

Two completely different comings as can be clearly seen in the Word. How is it that you do not understand these things? All you have to do is read what it says.

 

[jeffweeder]

Complete avoidance of the scriptural proofs I presented. Your disagreement is invalid.

1 and 2 thess is about the Churches resurrection and Glorification that occurs at the GWT righteous judgment of God.
And yes the wicked are then thrown into the fire AFTER the book of life is open and we are revealed as Glorified.


2Thess 1
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


This clearly happens at the second coming when we see him as he is...we will then be like him having a body like his glorious body.

Matt 25
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;


Lk 21
27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”


Rom 8
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

So what is this blessed hope we have?

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and in a godly manner in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds.

15 These things speak and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. No one is to disregard you.


How then can there be a future millennium when all the above happens at the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ?

 

[Keraz]

How then can there be a future millennium when all the above happens at the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ?

They don't happen at the Return.
1 Thess 1:10 says Jesus will be revealed to His saints, that is: to the faithful Christian peoples. He is seen by them when He selects the 144,000, Revelation 14:1, and the events described in 1 Thess 1:6-9 are never described to happen at the Return. Revelation 19:11-21

1 and 2 thess is about the Churches resurrection and Glorification that occurs at the GWT righteous judgment of God.
And yes the wicked are then thrown into the fire AFTER the book of life is open and we are revealed as Glorified.

Clearly, plainly and without doubt, the Book of Life is opened AFTER the thousand year reign of King Jesus. As Revelation 20 says
There is no general resurrection until then.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your futility is evident not just on this subject but everywhere you go.

Say what now? Not sure what you're talking about.

What happened to your Christian love?

It hasn't gone anywhere. Do you think you display that on this forum all the time? Hardly. Don't judge me, Randy. Deal with yourself first.

What happened to "do everything to edify?" What happened to "rejoice in the Lord always," or "sing always a melody to the Lord?"

Is that how you think you come across on here? LOL. Hardly. Please don't preach to me, Randy. I don't need you to do that.

You are extremely gloomy,

LOL. What? You don't know me at all. You couldn't be more wrong. You need to just stop, Randy. Don't act like you know me. You don't know me even a tiny bit.

and don't hold up well under trial.

LOL. You are killing me here, Randy. You don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Not whatsoever.

You can't seem to handle differences of opinion.

LOL. You need to look in the mirror, Randy. You obviously have no self awareness.

What is wrong with you?

Nothing besides being a sinner in need of God's grace. What is wrong with you?

I don't want to criticize you--I'd rather try to help you.

I don't need your help and don't want your help. This is beyond hilarious. You are acting as if you know me when you don't even know me a tiny bit. What is wrong with you that makes you think you can know someone just by what they say about end times doctrine? Come on, man.

But there's something wrong with a few people here who are extremely provocative in their style.

And you haven't ever been that way? Sure you have. Stop being holier than thou. It's not a good look.

By contrast there are others who act like true Christians, who get irate sometimes but always come back to being sensible and Christ-like. I say this just to stir you up to self-awareness, to keep you from heading in the wrong direction.

Get off your high horse, Randy.

 

[jeffweeder]

They don't happen at the Return.
1 Thess 1:10 says Jesus will be revealed to His saints, that is: to the faithful Christian peoples. He is seen by them when He selects the 144,000, Revelation 14:1, and the events described in 1 Thess 1:6-9 are never described to happen at the Return. Revelation 19:11-21

This clearly happens the next time we see him at the second coming when we see him as he is...we will then be like him having a body like his glorious body.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Philippians 3:21
who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I said the word "resurrection" is not found in either of those two verses. True or false? Look at the Greek if you want.

What was your reasoning for pointing that out? When it says that the dead in Christ will rise first it's talking about them being resurrected, right? So, what different does it make if the word "resurrection" was used there or not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Clearly, plainly and without doubt, the Book of Life is opened AFTER the thousand year reign of King Jesus.

You understand that we all believe that, right? Who are you arguing with here?

As Revelation 20 says
There is no general resurrection until then.

Amillennialists agree with that (no general resurrection until after the thousand years)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's simplify it.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME EVENT.

1 Corinthians 15 occurs at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. We can see this coming in Matt24. This occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Also, He sends His angels at this coming to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Completely different than the coming of Jesus in 1 Thes 4. THE LORD HIMSELF COMES. The bridegroom is coming for the bride. This occurs at the trump of God or voice of God.

Two completely different comings as can be clearly seen in the Word. How is it that you do not understand these things? All you have to do is read what it says.

LOL. What kind of an argument is this? Both passages talk about His coming from heaven. Your argument seems to be that they can't be the same event just because they don't contain all the same details. What nonsense. Are there any contradictory details between the two passages? No. So, what is the basis for saying they are different events? Nothing you said here backs up that claim at all.

 

[Keraz]

This clearly happens the next time we see him at the second coming when we see him as he is...we will then be like him having a body like his glorious body.

Dreamers nonsense.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Philippians 3:21
who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

These verses refer to what happens after the GWT Judgment.
NO ONE receives 'glorification', whatever that is, or immortality until the GWT Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened.

You are killing me here, Randy. You don't have a clue of what you're talking about.

This exchange is a classic case of the blind leading the blind.
I suggest that you both spend more time finding out what God actually does plan for our future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This exchange is a classic case of the blind leading the blind.

Says the blind man.

I suggest that you both spend more time finding out what God actually does plan for our future.

I suggest that you don't waste your time trying to tell me what to do and to stop judging me as if you have any idea of how much time I spend find out what God plans for the future. You completely ignore the spiritual aspects of what is coming in the future. That reveals your carnal mind.