22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now you are fantasizing. I think you have a short memory.
Listen, you are not prepared to hear anything that questions what you believe. I know this. You have been at this a long time. I know this also.

He's been at this a long time, yet is somehow not prepared to hear anything that questions what he believes? LOL! That makes no sense. He has been answering challenges to his beliefs for a long time, so he was prepared for that long ago and still is today. Your arguments compared to his are unbelievably weak. There is no comparison. Honestly, you are in over your head here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks Bro'. that's a relief. Glad someone understands. 

It's not hard to see without Premil glasses on. But, once someone puts those on, it gets dark.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your posts are notably marked by a severe lack of Scripture. That is because you just like talking. You think if you say something then that makes it a fact. Well, the opposite is the truth.

It is as if he equates his own words with Scripture. Very strange. He rarely backs up his claims with scripture. He says that scripture says this and it says that. But where? Who knows? I would say nowhere.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope. The promises of God are indeed fulfilled by what Christ did, legally, at the cross. But those promises involve a physical nation, a multitude of physical nations, and a multitude of ethnicities. Nations, peoples, tongues, etc. It's all in the Abrahamic Covenant, and it's all in the book of Revelation. You're 100% wrong!

So, we should just ignore passages like Galatians 3:16-29 then which talk about God's promises to Abraham and his seed. Nothing to see there?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope. I don't have a clue what you're talking about? The 1st resurrection of Rev 20 has to be physical because I've never heard of a non-physical resurrection. That would be an oxymoron.

I agree that people have already come under judgment without necessitating a physical resurrection. Many people have died from a divine judgment against them. This doesn't require that there be a physical resurrection, whatever that means?

He was comparing John 5:24-25 to this verse:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

John 5:24-25 talks about how someone crossing over from spiritual death to spiritual life by way of believing in Christ, right? Those who have done that don't have God's judgment/wrath on them, right? Instead, they have the hope of eternal life.

Well, Revelation 20:6 talks about sharing in the first resurrection which results in the second death not having power over you. So, the question I have for you is this. At what point does the second death not have power over someone? Not until they are bodily resurrected? Or some time before that?

 

[covenantee]

I wouldn't want to be in your place, judging prematurely the eternal souls of men! I'm done arguing with you on this point. I believe, without a doubt, that God is gathering Jews together to inherit the promises God made to Abraham. They may not be Christians yet. But they will be.

You continue to use the terms "Jews" and "Israel", but we know that Jews and Israel cannot be identified genetically because every human being possesses some amount of Abraham's genome.

So what are your criteria for identifying Jews and Israel? If God is gathering Jews together, what criteria are He using to determine who are Jews and thus who to gather?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have not denied that God's People among the Jews are not a "nation."

Where does scripture separate God's people into groups the way you do? Do you ever read the New Testament? Your views are not supported in it at all. You seem to be saying that God has a people of His own that are Jewish believers. And, according to you, they are their own nation. What about the fact that they have been joined together as one with Gentile believers? Does that not mean anything to you? Why do you try to keep them separate from Gentile believers when scripture teaches that they together are one body? One spiritual nation. Spiritual Israel.

 

[WPM]

Distinguishing between a man and a woman is not chauvinism. Neither is distinguishing between Israel and other nations apartheid. You're either really thick, or a very angry man!

I do agree with you that the New Covenant superseded the Old Covenant of Law. And Christian nations have entered into the hope of Israel without cancelling Israel's own unique national participation in that hope.

These are all natural designations. They may help us physically distinguish between one and another on this earth, but when it comes to spiritual matters we are one harmonious spiritual people. We are one flock. We are one nation. There are no distinctions, no apartheid and no divisions.

Nations do not enter into the hope of Israel, individuals do.

 

[WPM]

I wouldn't want to be in your place, judging prematurely the eternal souls of men! I'm done arguing with you on this point. I believe, without a doubt, that God is gathering Jews together to inherit the promises God made to Abraham. They may not be Christians yet. But they will be.

God has always been gathering Jews and Gentiles together to inherit the promises God made to Abraham. There is nothing new about that.

 

[WPM]

A Christian is one who has embraced Christ as his Lord. Many have done so without fully paying the price, and later they fall away, or become so compromised that they lose their experience. At any rate, knowing which Christians are "fully saved" is a matter of God's knowledge. Sometimes God lets us know, and sometimes not.

What do you mean lose their experience? So, you are advocating Christians losing their salvation?

So, then, please identify the Christian nations in our day?

 

[WPM]

It's not hard to see without Premil glasses on. But, once someone puts those on, it gets dark.

Agreed! And complicated. Very complicated.

 

[WPM]

Christian nations have entered into the hope of Israel without cancelling Israel's own unique national participation in that hope.

Hello! Breaking news: we have entered the new covenant. The old is gone forever. Race means nothing today. It is all about grace. The Gospel is open equally to Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no racial favoritism any more. Thank God!

In Acts 10, God uses a vision of unclean food to help the apostle Peter see that in Christ there is no longer any spiritual distinction between Jew and Gentile. God now accepts both equally on the same terms into His kingdom. Peter responds to this great monumental revelation in Acts 10:34-36: “I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all).”

The word interpreted “respecter” in the King James Version is the Greek word prosopoleptes which simply means: one exhibiting partiality. In fact, the New King James Version renders this, “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

The Revised Standard Version states: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” The New Living Translation: “I see very clearly that God doesn't show partiality. In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right.” Today’s English Version similarly states, “I now realize that it is true that God treats everyone on the same basis. Whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him, no matter what race he belongs to.” New International Version states: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.”

This passage is crystal clear in its meaning and explanation of how God views all nations, peoples and tribes equally today. The reading makes it clear: God is no respecter of persons. This is not strange or outlandish; it is the constant theme of the New Testament. The Gospel is no longer restricted to the physical race of Israel but it has been opened up to embrace all nations. This means that God doesn’t accept anyone based on their nationality, color or status but rather on whether or not they fear Him. When it comes to salvation he looks at the inward rather than the outward. Those that fear him and walk righteously “in every nation” are now “accepted with him.” He is assuredly “Lord of all.” He has made all nations, tribes and kindreds the focus of His favor today. It is wrong to elevate one nation over another.

 

[Truth7t7]

But, it indicates that those who have part in the first resurrection live and reign with Christ during the thousand years. With that being the case, how can the first resurrection not occur until the last day? Yes, we agree that all people, saved and lost, will be bodily resurrected at generally the same time on the last day (John 5:28-29), but that is not the first resurrection. There would be no ability to reign with Christ during the thousand years if the first resurrection didn't occur until the last day.

You kind of believe in a form of Amillennialism that is all to yourself in some ways, it seems. I've never seen an Amil try to say that the first resurrection occurs on the last day before. Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and believers all spiritually have had part in His resurrection (the first resurrection) for the past almost 2,000 years.

We Disagree

Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking of those that are physically dead in Jesus Christ, not of Jesus Christ as you believe and teach

Their resurrection will take place at the end of the thousand years as shown, there are (Two Resurrections) on the last day, the righteous are blessed to be in the first of the two, that will be eternal to life, the wicked to eternal damnation

The resurrection of Jesus Christ took place long ago, the thousand years will be finished at the "Second Coming", before your eyes, easy to understand

I don't follow Ken Gentry or Kim Riddlebarger, perhaps you should consider the same, Sola scriptura!

When the thousand years are "Finished" the first resurrection takes place, read it again and again!

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I've already explained this MANY times and you're still asking me this? Unbelievable.

What is the reason you can't remember what I've said all the other times I've explained this to you? Why should I think you will pay attention this time? I've said MANY times that I don't believe anyone gets replaced and I don't see the church/spiritual Israel as replacing the nation of Israel. I see the church/spiritual Israel as being distinct from national Israel.

Then start retaining this. I've responded to this every time, and you show no understanding with how I'm dealing with it. That's why you think I don't respond to you, because it's not the response you want.

I'll try again, since you sound quite sincere, unlike PM. I know you don't believe "spiritual Israel" replaces "physical Israel." The point is, that DOESN'T MATTER! RT may very likely accept that there is both a spiritual Israel and a physical Israel.

What RT does do, however, is make spiritual Israel the true fulfillment of "Israel." And that is RT, and what you believe. In stating that spiritual Israel is the true heir of "Israel" you're making physical Israel a mere typology of no real value, except as a shadow of spiritual Israel. Am I correct? If so, then you are indeed a believer in RT.

RT doesn't mean that Israel is nullified as a physical nation. Nobody in their right mind would claim that!

You don't at all *replace* physical Israel with spiritual Israel. But for those of us who believe that physical Israel will become the true spiritual Israel, you do replace my sense of Israel's national destiny with the destiny of the international Church.

 

[Randy Kluth]

According to Paul the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16,29). Why do you have the promises to Abraham and his seed applying to Israel and other nations when Paul taught they apply to Christ and His followers? Do you not have any respect for Paul's teaching? Don't you think we can trust that Paul knew what he was talking about?

I have no interest in perpetuating our disagreement--I only wish you to understand my position. I agree with Paul that Christ is the sole basis for the fulfillment of *all* of the promises God has made. Some of those promises were made exclusively to Israel. Some promises, by extension, apply to the international Church, as well.

Let me put it like this. All of us who are true Christians receive the same benefit from Christ. But Christ offers some gifts to individuals that others of us don't receive. In effect we receive their gifts when we receive them.

The same is true of Israel. It is just one of many nations called to be a godly nation. But they have their own unique calling and their own special gifts. If the rest of the Church is going to benefit from them, we will have to accept them when they, as a people, finally accept Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You continue to use the terms "Jews" and "Israel", but we know that Jews and Israel cannot be identified genetically because every human being possesses some amount of Abraham's genome.

So what are your criteria for identifying Jews and Israel? If God is gathering Jews together, what criteria are He using to determine who are Jews and thus who to gather?

We identify Finns and Finland the same way we identify Jews and Israel. They have a predominant ethnicity, which doesn't always require any kind of genetic purity, ie a Jewish gene.

But it is easy to identify Israel. It is in the land traditionally called Israel, and it is carrying on where it left off 2000 years ago. Only this time, judgment will lead to national contrition, repentance, and ultimately, a full national restoration. My view only.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where does scripture separate God's people into groups the way you do? Do you ever read the New Testament? Your views are not supported in it at all. You seem to be saying that God has a people of His own that are Jewish believers. And, according to you, they are their own nation. What about the fact that they have been joined together as one with Gentile believers? Does that not mean anything to you? Why do you try to keep them separate from Gentile believers when scripture teaches that they together are one body? One spiritual nation. Spiritual Israel.

The NT deals with Salvation, and excludes any corrupt human basis for obtaining this. Artificial distinctions like race and nationality are excluded from the mix. Christ is the sole basis for salvation for any nation or ethnicity.

So while the NT focuses on salvation going from the Jews to the Gentile nations we have to remember that other facts were already well-established, were common sense, and did not need reiteration. The distinction between nations did not need mentioning, although it is mentioned. The continuing validity of Israel as a nation of hope is not excluded either, even though they are, as a society, set on a shelf for a long while.

To say the Bible does not express a distinction between nations is false. NT theology does not, contrary to opinion, contradict the idea of many nations and the exclusivity of the Israeli nation. When the Bible speaks of these artificial distinctions it is only talking about the exclusive basis of salvation being in Christ, and not in these distinctions belonging to fallible human beings.

 

[Randy Kluth]

These are all natural designations. They may help us physically distinguish between one and another on this earth, but when it comes to spiritual matters we are one harmonious spiritual people. We are one flock. We are one nation. There are no distinctions, no apartheid and no divisions.

Nations do not enter into the hope of Israel, individuals do.

Obviously, we disagree.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God has always been gathering Jews and Gentiles together to inherit the promises God made to Abraham. There is nothing new about that.

Who said there was something new about it?

 

[Randy Kluth]

What do you mean lose their experience? So, you are advocating Christians losing their salvation?

So, then, please identify the Christian nations in our day?

I'm advocating for the idea that nominal Christians can lose the *experience* of salvation, which obviously means they were never really saved. I'm a predestinarian. Those who are not inclined to want eternal fellowship with God, but like the experience of His paradise, will not be able to keep it. They may be obedient in some areas, and receive blessings for this obedience. But they will never receive eternal life short of accepting the cross.