22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Randy Kluth

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The Gospel is open equally to Jews and Gentiles alike. There is no racial favoritism any more. Thank God!

We agree on that much. With respect to Salvation, being a member of Israel or being a member of S. Africa has no bearing. The only thing that has bearing is when the individual, from any nation, accepts Christ as Lord, and chooses to sell out for him.

I do not need to be lectured on God's impartial position in our Salvation. We agree on that in advance.
 

Truth7t7

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You are mistaken. The rest of the dead are contrasted with those from verse 4 who have part in the first resurrection. What you're not understanding here is that the first sentence of Revelation 20:5 is a parenthetical statement. Translations like the NIV even put it in parentheses. The second sentence describes what was said before that in verse 4.

And, as I said in another post I just made, those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ during the thousand years. You know He has been reigning a long time already, right? So, how can it be that no one has yet had part in the first resurrection? How can anyone reign with Him during the thousand years if no one has yet had part in the first resurrection?
Please refer to post #3013 above

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Keraz

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To say the Bible does not express a distinction between nations is false.
Correct. This distinction is made in:
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you: The Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, [the Jewish nation] and given to the nation which yields the proper fruit.
The Jews lost it when they killed Jesus and cursed themselves and nowhere is it said they will get it back.
What is said in over 20 Prophesies, is that the Jews will be punished and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27
 
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Truth7t7

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Some of those promises were made exclusively to Israel. Some promises, by extension, apply to the international Church, as well.

Let me put it like this. All of us who are true Christians receive the same benefit from Christ. But Christ offers some gifts to individuals that others of us don't receive. In effect we receive their gifts when we receive them.

The same is true of Israel. It is just one of many nations called to be a godly nation. But they have their own unique calling and their own special gifts. If the rest of the Church is going to benefit from them, we will have to accept them when they, as a people, finally accept Christ.
Zionist (Dual Covenant Theology) in (Two Peoples Of God)

God has (One Covenant) with man, the shed blood upon Calvary period!

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Hebrews 13:20KJV
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
 
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Randy Kluth

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Correct. This distinction is made in:
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you: The Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, [the Jewish nation] and given to the nation which yields the proper fruit.
The Jews lost it when they killed Jesus and cursed themselves and nowhere is it said they will get it back.
What is said in over 20 Prophesies, is that the Jews will be punished and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27

Yes, and I believe God will convert a remnant who choose to believe at the 2nd Coming of Christ, and rebuild a full nation out of them.
 

Randy Kluth

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Zionist (Dual Covenant Theology) in (Two Peoples Of God)

God has (One Covenant) with man, the shed blood upon Calvary period!

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Hebrews 13:20KJV
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Correction: I do not personally believe in a "dual covenant theology," whatever you mean by that. There is only one covenant, the covenant of Christ's blood, or cross. The covenant of Law could not and never was intended to provide anything more than a temporary means of relationship with God. It could never have provided for eternal life.

And I don't believe there is just Israel on one hand and the International Church on the other hand. Rather, I believe the Church consists of many nations, including Israel, as well as remnants from all nations. It's just that not all nations become Christian nations. Israel will perhaps become the last Christian nation when Christ returns. Then there will be many Christian nations, all under the single covenant of Christ.
 

covenantee

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But it is easy to identify Israel. It is in the land traditionally called Israel, and it is carrying on where it left off 2000 years ago. Only this time, judgment will lead to national contrition, repentance, and ultimately, a full national restoration. My view only.

But you claimed that God is gathering Jews. Does that not mean that He is gathering Jews from outside of the land of Israel to bring them inside of the land of Israel?

Thus the question remains: What are the criteria that God uses to identify Jews outside of the land of Israel?
 
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Timtofly

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I believe that no one would interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12 in such a way that it's not referring to the end of the world if it wasn't for doctrinal bias. It's interesting how Premils throw their literal rules of interpretation out the window when it comes to passages like that one.
It is the end of the world in regards to the curse set in place at the disobedience of Adam. All of Adam's punishment will be turned back to a perfect world. Including the physical geological divides at the Flood. Revelation 6:14

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

This happens when the heaven dissolves in 2 Peter 3. This is not Armageddon. Fire will burn up every work on earth. Yet there are still all those humans in that list hiding in caves. This is not the moment they are all killed at Armageddon in Revelation 19. This is Zechariah 14:4-9

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one."

Notice the Lord shall be king over all the earth. Then the 7th Seal will be opened. Then the Trumpets start sounding. This is before Satan's 42 months in Revelation 13 at the 7th Trumpet. When Jesus is sitting on that throne in newly remodeled Jerusalem, He will separate the sheep from the goats. So humans are not all killed yet. But all will see the end of their Adamic flesh. Some to eternal life on earth, starting with the Millennium Kingdom. The goats to eternal death. After the sheep and goats, Jesus will concentrate on the tares and the wheat sown during the Trumpets and separation of the sheep and goats. This is the 7 Thunders, the nations themselves. All the way up to the 7th Trumpet, when time is called for Adam's 6,000 years of punishment, and Daniel's 70th week with Jesus reigning as Prince.

Then and only then in the days of the 7th Trumpet Daniel 9:27 may happen and we see Revelation 13 unfold. If the Covenant is confirmed and the harvest is complete, there may not even be 42 months given to Satan to split the week in half. If the 42 months don't happen, neither will the battle of Armageddon, nor the 7 vials. Jesus is already on earth on His throne. The rest of humanity will be killed in the winepress, because the harvest is over. The Millennium will start immediately.

What organization will be during the Trumpets and Thunders are all false christs popping up claiming to have authority and starting kingdoms, but Jesus said to not listen to any of them. The world will be in chaos, and angels will be rounding up sheep and goats, because there won't be any transportation, since literally all the works of man will have been burned to a crisp. Amil declares this all over in a split second of time resolving all tribulation immediately.

Post tribulation people don't give any time for Jesus on earth, even though in Matthew 13 and 25 Jesus specifically said He and the angels would be present on the earth. This not rebuilding instantly and gathering instantly. This could be months, and weeks depending on who is left after the church is taken away and glorified, when Jesus sets His feet on the mount of Olives. Yes it is a climactic end to every thing, work of man, on earth. Humans are literally hiding in caves and under rocks (rubble left of all skyscrapers) . No more computers nor networks, nor means of finance, and probably no food to eat. It will literally be the worse time on earth ever imagined for 8 billion souls, minus the redeemed and glorified church. And many seem fine to go through it as sheep and goats, wheat and tares, but certainly they will have missed the church leaving before Jesus gets down to business cleaning up the mess from this climactic end of life as we know it event. Amil certainly sugar coat it stating it will be so fast, no one will know what hit them. In reality no one will be prepared to live after the reality of God's Will hits the earth.

So yes, the end of the world, and the refining fire that makes it perfect as before sin. You seem to reject the fact that Noah stepped off the earth into a new world and a new heaven. There were now weather patterns where there had been none prior. The poles would freeze over. Bodies of water would come and go. The continents would drift apart.

After the Second Coming Jesus will be creating it back to perfection. Jesus will rule for 1,000 years until all is back under subjection as Paul declared. Only after Jesus hands back creation, will all creation cease or flee away as John put it. The New Heaven and earth will be instantaneous. It will not take days, weeks, or years. It will not even takes seconds, so definitely not the Second Coming nor even what is described in Revelation 19, which you seem to cut off without seeing the narrative run all the way to the GWT.
 

Truth7t7

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Israel will perhaps become the last Christian nation when Christ returns.
"Your living a Zionist fairy tale dream" Sci-Fi found no place in scripture

No Israel won't become a Christian Nation as you claim, however as Paul has shown you several times, only a "remnant" of Israel will become the Church

Romans 11:7-9KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
 
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Truth7t7

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Yes, and I believe God will convert a remnant who choose to believe at the 2nd Coming of Christ, and rebuild a full nation out of them.
God isn't going to rebuild your Zionist Kingdom on this earth that you dream of, let's play Randy's make believe game, can you see the Kingdom on earth "Smiles"!

This earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire in final judgement at his return (The End) "No Survivors"!


Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)


2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 
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Keraz

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Yes, and I believe God will convert a remnant who choose to believe at the 2nd Coming of Christ, and rebuild a full nation out of them.
That belief is wrong and is never Prophesied to happen.
Note well; This applies to the House of Judah, the House of Israel is a separate entity.

Jeremiah 50:In those days......the people of Israel and the people [remnant] of Judah, will come together and in tears; go to the holy Land in search of the Lord.
Ezekiel 16:59-83 I shall treat you [Judah] as you deserve, because you broke our Covenant.......When I pardon you, [after the fire Judgment of - Ezekiel 15:6-8] you will be so ashamed and humiliated that you will never open your mouth again.
 

CadyandZoe

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I've answered every one of his points, as well. And I did this years ago on a previous forum. He's not interested in responses, because instead of thanking me for responding he usually says something like, "You have nothing." He's a man on a mission. ;)
If I had the time, I [w]ould like to create a thread, giving the positive reasons why [P]remillennialism is true. Or I might like to start a new thread called 22 reasons to abandon Amillennialism. He does seem to be a [m]an on a mission. :) Have a great day.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Which rhetorical question are you talking about? You keep referring to it without telling me what it is. I'm sorry, but you are just terrible at communicating.

It is not automatic for someone to repent. God doesn't force or coerce anyone to repent. But, again, I don't wish to turn this into a free will vs. Calvinism debate, so I'm not going to spend any more time on this here.
I am communicating just fine. You just don't like how it adds up.
 

CadyandZoe

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He's been at this a long time, yet is somehow not prepared to hear anything that questions what he believes? LOL! That makes no sense. He has been answering challenges to his beliefs for a long time, so he was prepared for that long ago and still is today. Your arguments compared to his are unbelievably weak. There is no comparison. Honestly, you are in over your head here.
As I said in a previous posts, his so-called "arguments" aren't valid arguments. They suffer from logical fallacies: strawman fallacy, and "putting words in my mouth" fallacy.

Remember our argument over what you believe? Did you think I was being mean to you for no reason? I'm sure you agree with me that no one likes to be told what they believe, myself included. Were you convinced that I was right about your beliefs? No?

I argued, based on what you said and how you expressed yourself, that you affirmed Replacement theology. You complained that I had no right to tell you what you believe. I acknowledge that.

So now reexamine the original 22 reasons Paul M gave in this thread. How many of the 22 reasons suffer from the strawman fallacy and how man suffer from "putting words in my mouth" fallacy? I'd say all of them.
 

WPM

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Obviously, we disagree.

Oh! So, you do not believe these are all natural designations?

What is the hope of Israel? Jesus Christ and eternal life. How does a nation experience that? The New Testament is very clear that salvation is personal. It is definitely not national. Nations do not enter into the hope of Israel, individuals do.
 
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WPM

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I'm advocating for the idea that nominal Christians can lose the *experience* of salvation, which obviously means they were never really saved. I'm a predestinarian. Those who are not inclined to want eternal fellowship with God, but like the experience of His paradise, will not be able to keep it. They may be obedient in some areas, and receive blessings for this obedience. But they will never receive eternal life short of accepting the cross.

It seems like you are wording this to justify your belief about so-called "Christian nation." Who are they?

And I don't believe there is just Israel on one hand and the International Church on the other hand. Rather, I believe the Church consists of many nations, including Israel, as well as remnants from all nations. It's just that not all nations become Christian nations. Israel will perhaps become the last Christian nation when Christ returns. Then there will be many Christian nations, all under the single covenant of Christ.

Why have you such a problem with the Church being one spiritual nation? You have been ably refuted for years on this issue, and you have no answers. Your posts are getting smaller and smaller and more evasive by the day.
 

WPM

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I did. Go back and read your own thread.

I am talking about addressing each. Premils skip around these important issues all time. They have to1 The fact is: they are important, correct and reveal why so many of us have abandoned Premil. Maybe you are thinking, if you keep repeating this falsehood enough times, you might convince yourself you are right.
 
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WPM

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As I said in a previous posts, his so-called "arguments" aren't valid arguments. They suffer from logical fallacies: strawman fallacy, and "putting words in my mouth" fallacy.

Remember our argument over what you believe? Did you think I was being mean to you for no reason? I'm sure you agree with me that no one likes to be told what they believe, myself included. Were you convinced that I was right about your beliefs? No?

I argued, based on what you said and how you expressed yourself, that you affirmed Replacement theology. You complained that I had no right to tell you what you believe. I acknowledge that.

So now reexamine the original 22 reasons Paul M gave in this thread. How many of the 22 reasons suffer from the strawman fallacy and how man suffer from "putting words in my mouth" fallacy? I'd say all of them.

LOL. I will take this as a compliment. You know you have no rebuttal. These 22 reasons are watertight. Ok. If you are so confident. Let's put it to the test. Care to discuss the ones that you think are a "strawman fallacy"?
 
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