22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

This does not make sense. Your spiritual is not God's spiritual. You are just saying that Satan is a righteous spiritual being with no carnality. The same with the dead. You are still in a state of death yourself thus literally only spiritual. You have removed all physical attributes from even yourself as you are in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. You are a soul, thus only spiritual in your logic. My merely putting these words about you in this post makes it so.

Your response is a false claim in non-sensical chaos, the very reason I refrain from response to you

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus said the hour is coming and now is when all shall hear His voice. Lazarus heard the voice and came out of Abraham's bosom. Lazarus had been in Abraham's bosom for 4 days. At what point is one in Abraham's bosom, but still considered not dead yet?

Jesus gave the example of Jonah. Did Jonah actually die, and go to Abraham's bosom? Did Jesus die and go to Abraham's bosom? Did Lazarus die and spend 4 days in Abraham's bosom? Obviously you don't see that as physically dying. Do you then say that Jesus did not physically die, enter Abraham's bosom, and was resurrected? Because that is exactly what Lazarus did and all the OT redeemed. Lazarus just did not spend almost 2,000 years there like Abraham did. Is being 4 days dead not enough to be considered literally dead? Is hearing Jesus calling him out of the grave not enough to be Jesus literally calling him out of the grave?

So you don't want to be raised out of death, because raised up is not the same as being resurrected. 2 Corinthians 4:14

"Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you."

Paul must not have thought Jesus was resurrected, only raised up? You do know that raised up is a resurrection?

There is one future resurrection of all, this takes place on the last day at the second coming of Jesus Christ

Lazarus and Tabitha were raised from the dead, your claims are false and chaos

 

[Truth7t7]

No it says the end will come after everything is made subject unto Him, death being the last enemy. Those consumed by fire after the end of the 1,000 years are the last humans to face Death. Then Death will be made subject to Jesus. Then Jesus will hand back all of creation to God. Jesus does not stop ruling at the Second Coming. Jesus stops ruling after handing back creation.



Some people don't view the Second Coming as always soon. They are either Preterist or theistic evolutionists. Or some Amil think this age is a really long time, and only see Revelation 20 as indefinite but a long way off. Who knows what people think when they don't see 1,000 years as literal?

A response in total chaos

 

[CadyandZoe]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Your post doesn't address my objection, which is that Revelation 20 reads well as a literal description and it doesn't take place in heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your post doesn't address my objection, which is that Revelation 20 reads well as a literal description and it doesn't take place in heaven.

The post clearly describes Revelation 20:1-6 as being 100% in the spiritual realm, with spiritual beings, and it's not literally on this earth in a Millennial Kingdom as many claim

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is a very weak argument. He taught plenty of things that were already known, so why not this as well?

You don't understand my point I think. I am responding to the Amillennial position, which makes the fallacious claim that silence is evidence. In other words, just because Jesus didn't give an explicit teaching on a subject, doesn't mean that he didn't believe it. He explicitly teaches that he did NOT come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it. Evaluation of that claim depends on a complete understanding of the prophetic word.

Although he didn't give an explicit teaching on the subject, he acted like he believed it and he gave commentary on the subject. As I already explained to you, Jesus referred to himself in various ways: King of Israel, Son of David, Son of God, Son of man, Messiah, ALL of which assume a future earthly kingdom. None of those titles is significant if Jesus fails to rule the earth from Jerusalem.

I believe it is. I see no reason why Jesus would have nothing to say about that when He had plenty to say about other things relating to the end times.

He said plenty on the subject. You don't seem to see it or recognize it. Everything he said about the end times is predicated on his role as the coming King of Israel, who will rule on the earth for at least a thousand years. Without that predicate, everything else is meaningless.

That is not at all what He was saying to Nicodemus. Where is your discernment? He was talking about something that becomes a reality the very moment you are initially born again/saved. He was saying that those who are born again can see (spiritually perceive) the currently existing kingdom of God which is not something to be observed with our physical eyes.

Look at the passage again. How does it start? The passage begins with a confession.

“Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” .​

Nicodemus confesses Jesus because he witnessed the miracles and understood the significance of them. Jesus informs Nicodemus that unless one is born again, or born from above, one can not recognize the significance of the Miracles. This is what Jesus told the Pharisees. They saw the signs and didn't recognize the significance of them.

It seems that you don't even want to acknowledge that the kingdom of God exists right now and we are in it right now. Yes, it will come in its fullness in the future when Christ returns, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist even now spiritually.

We both agree that the kingdom of God hasn't come in its fulness. Our argument is over the timing of the total fruition of the kingdom.

Have you never read this:

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

Paul is speaking about matters of significance in the kingdom of God. The fact that eating and drinking is not significant doesn't mean that eating and drinking won't take place.

When did He say He will rule from Jerusalem?

Jesus and his people believe the prophets. The prophets say that the coming messiah will rule from Jerusalem.

So, I guess you find the following passage to be stupid then.

Did we talk about this passage already? If I use a flower as a metaphor, it doesn't mean that flowers don't exist. The metaphor relies on the existence of real flowers. When he says that you came to Mount Zion, he isn't speaking literally. I'm a Christian but I have never been to Mount Zion. But, this doesn't mean that Zion doesn't exist or that someday I won't go there.

We are talking about the kingdom of God as it exists right now.

No, that is not the subject of this thread. WPM started polemic against MY view, which is Premillennialism. And according to MY view, Jesus will rule physically on earth from Jerusalem for a thousand years. The fact that the kingdom exists in some nascent form now, does not rule out a fuller kingdom in the future.

Yes, an eternal kingdom. But, you believe in a temporal kingdom being established on earth when Christ returns instead of an eternal one.

No. The reason why John specified the time -- 1,000 years, is because the Millennial period is temporal. The Bible is clear that the Lord's domination will be everlasting. I believe that Jesus rule on earth is for a limited time. God establishes the Millennial rule of Christ for a specific and important reason: to vindicate his holy name.

Revelation goes on to say that after the thousand years, the temporal Millennial Period is ended.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have no idea of what you're talking about here.

If that is true, then change your approach. Start asking questions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You really need to learn to read scripture more carefully. Read verse 12. Jesus said "but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him". Did you somehow miss that?

No. Jesus is NOT saying that Malachi 4 was fulfilled. His purpose is to draw attention to how John the Baptist was treated.

Elijah already came in the person of John the Baptist. That is what Jesus said.

Jesus also says that Elijah IS coming, future tense. Jesus is not saying that John fulfilled Malachi 4. John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah. John 1:21

Look, before you apply the New Testament to the Old Testament, first understand the New Testament.

Looks like you are not willing to accept that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come, as prophesied by the prophet Malachi.

You don't believe in the restoration of all things when Christ returns like I do.

Obviously.

You only believe in the restoration of some things. The restoration of all things will occur when the perfect, eternal new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

No. Don't you get it. I can buy a new car or I can buy a restored car. A New Heavens and a New Earth are NOT a restored heavens and a restored earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

He said plenty on the subject. You don't seem to see it or recognize it. Everything he said about the end times is predicated on his role as the coming King of Israel, who will rule on the earth for at least a thousand years. Without that predicate, everything else is meaningless.

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[WPM]

Jesus referred to himself in various ways: King of Israel, Son of David, Son of God, Son of man, Messiah, ALL of which assume a future earthly kingdom. None of those titles is significant if Jesus fails to rule the earth from Jerusalem.

You say that but present no proof apart from your own opinion. That is because there is nothing in the NT to support your contention. However, there is much in the NT that forbids your theory. Premils want to literalize that which is spiritual and spiritualize that which is literal. The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom.

The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah – the King – would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel. Their mistaken thinking was guided by a hyper-literalist attitude to Old Testament Messianic prophecies. These Christ confronted and exposed in His teaching. This expectation of a literal visible territorial kingdom was wrong, and revealed the ignorance which controlled the Jews at that time. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

The Messianic kingdom is here now. Can I remind you that the Messiah came as king with His kingdom a long time ago? Just because you reject that does not in any way negate it. Your theology causes you to dismiss it. Like the Pharisees, you fail to see the eschatological nature of His First Advent and the kingdom of God. That is the very reason why the Pharisees nailed Him to a tree. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah the King would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel and usher in a period of physical and spiritual bliss for Israel.

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

He said plenty on the subject. You don't seem to see it or recognize it. Everything he said about the end times is predicated on his role as the coming King of Israel, who will rule on the earth for at least a thousand years. Without that predicate, everything else is meaningless.


Look at the passage again. How does it start? The passage begins with a confession.

“Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” .​

Nicodemus confesses Jesus because he witnessed the miracles and understood the significance of them. Jesus informs Nicodemus that unless one is born again, or born from above, one can not recognize the significance of the Miracles. This is what Jesus told the Pharisees. They saw the signs and didn't recognize the significance of them.



We both agree that the kingdom of God hasn't come in its fulness. Our argument is over the timing of the total fruition of the kingdom.

Paul is speaking about matters of significance in the kingdom of God. The fact that eating and drinking is not significant doesn't mean that eating and drinking won't take place.

Jesus and his people believe the prophets. The prophets say that the coming messiah will rule from Jerusalem.


Did we talk about this passage already? If I use a flower as a metaphor, it doesn't mean that flowers don't exist. The metaphor relies on the existence of real flowers. When he says that you came to Mount Zion, he isn't speaking literally. I'm a Christian but I have never been to Mount Zion. But, this doesn't mean that Zion doesn't exist or that someday I won't go there.

No, that is not the subject of this thread. WPM started polemic against MY view, which is Premillennialism. And according to MY view, Jesus will rule physically on earth from Jerusalem for a thousand years. The fact that the kingdom exists in some nascent form now, does not rule out a fuller kingdom in the future.
No. The reason why John specified the time -- 1,000 years, is because the Millennial period is temporal. The Bible is clear that the Lord's domination will be everlasting. I believe that Jesus rule on earth is for a limited time. God establishes the Millennial rule of Christ for a specific and important reason: to vindicate his holy name.

Revelation goes on to say that after the thousand years, the temporal Millennial Period is ended.

This is all your opinion. The kingdom is spiritual, heavenly and eternal. It is not another age like ours in-between "this age" and "the age to come." These are the only 2 ages Jesus and the NT writers recognized.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't understand my point I think. I am responding to the Amillennial position, which makes the fallacious claim that silence is evidence. In other words, just because Jesus didn't give an explicit teaching on a subject, doesn't mean that he didn't believe it. He explicitly teaches that he did NOT come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it. Evaluation of that claim depends on a complete understanding of the prophetic word.

You communicate very vaguely sometimes. I'm left to guess as to what you are trying to say.

Although he didn't give an explicit teaching on the subject, he acted like he believed it and he gave commentary on the subject. As I already explained to you, Jesus referred to himself in various ways: King of Israel, Son of David, Son of God, Son of man, Messiah, ALL of which assume a future earthly kingdom. None of those titles is significant if Jesus fails to rule the earth from Jerusalem.

What you're saying here is not convincing at all. You're not going to convince me of anything with your words. Show me the scripture that backs up what you're saying. I find your arguments to be completely unconvincing.

He said plenty on the subject. You don't seem to see it or recognize it. Everything he said about the end times is predicated on his role as the coming King of Israel, who will rule on the earth for at least a thousand years. Without that predicate, everything else is meaningless.

That is far from the truth. All you're doing here is making claims without backing them up. This is a waste of time.

Look at the passage again. How does it start? The passage begins with a confession.

“Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” .​

Nicodemus confesses Jesus because he witnessed the miracles and understood the significance of them. Jesus informs Nicodemus that unless one is born again, or born from above, one can not recognize the significance of the Miracles. This is what Jesus told the Pharisees. They saw the signs and didn't recognize the significance of them.

No idea what your point is here. Jesus also said that one must be born of the Spirit (same thing as being born again) in order to enter the kingdom of God. We are both born again. Do you think we have not yet entered the kingdom of God? We certainly have. We are in His kingdom now. His kingdom that does not come with observation and is not of this world. So, being born again results in seeing (spiritually perceiving) and entering the spiritual kingdom of God. That is what Jesus taught.

We both agree that the kingdom of God hasn't come in its fulness. Our argument is over the timing of the total fruition of the kingdom.

Mostly, but we also disagree on the nature of the kingdom when it initially comes. You see it as a kingdom on earth where sin and death will still occur and I don't.

Paul is speaking about matters of significance in the kingdom of God. The fact that eating and drinking is not significant doesn't mean that eating and drinking won't take place.

Do you not acknowledge that the kingdom of God exists right now? It seems like you don't. Romans 14:17 is speaking of the kingdom in the sense that it does not come with observation and is not of this world. It's a spiritual kingdom that isn't about physical things like eating and drinking but rather about spiritual things like the forgiveness of sins. loving God and your neighbor and salvation.

Jesus and his people believe the prophets. The prophets say that the coming messiah will rule from Jerusalem.

Where?

Did we talk about this passage already?

Not that I recall.

If I use a flower as a metaphor, it doesn't mean that flowers don't exist. The metaphor relies on the existence of real flowers. When he says that you came to Mount Zion, he isn't speaking literally. I'm a Christian but I have never been to Mount Zion. But, this doesn't mean that Zion doesn't exist or that someday I won't go there.

This is your takeaway from Hebrews 12:18-24? If so, you have to be kidding me.

No, that is not the subject of this thread. WPM started polemic against MY view, which is Premillennialism. And according to MY view, Jesus will rule physically on earth from Jerusalem for a thousand years. The fact that the kingdom exists in some nascent form now, does not rule out a fuller kingdom in the future.

None of us here rule out a future kingdom. What you said earlier seemed to indicate that you understand that. It's the nature of the kingdom that we disagree on. At least when it initially arrives. I see it as being the eternal new heavens and new earth where there will be no more sin and death, but you see it as a temporal kingdom where sin and death will still exist.

No. The reason why John specified the time -- 1,000 years, is because the Millennial period is temporal.The Bible is clear that the Lord's domination will be everlasting. I believe that Jesus rule on earth is for a limited time.

That's what I said. You believe His kingdom will be temporal. And you say in response "No". I can't figure you out.

God establishes the Millennial rule of Christ for a specific and important reason: to vindicate his holy name.

Where is this taught in scripture? You seem to think that your words alone are convincing. They are not.

Revelation goes on to say that after the thousand years, the temporal Millennial Period is ended.

We all believe that the thousand years has a beginning and end. We just don't all agree that it's a literal one thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If that is true, then change your approach. Start asking questions.

So, the onus is completely on me to ask you a bunch of questions and you have no responsibility to try to communicate more clearly? Wow.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. Jesus is NOT saying that Malachi 4 was fulfilled. His purpose is to draw attention to how John the Baptist was treated.

It's funny how literal premils like yourself normally are, but when it comes to this you suddenly are not so literal anymore. Jesus very specifically indicated that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come. But, you say no, Elijah himself still has to come as well. Jesus indicated no such thing.

Jesus also says that Elijah IS coming, future tense.

No, He did not. He said he already came and it was John the Baptist.

Jesus is not saying that John fulfilled Malachi 4.

Yes, He did. More than once He indicated that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come, which we all know is a reference to Malachi 4.

John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah. John 1:21

Not the literal Elijah, which is not what the prophecy is about. The prophecy is about someone who would come in the spirit of Elijah which means he would be like Elijah, which John the Baptist was.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

This makes it clear that the prophecy from Malachi 4, quoted in Luke 1:17, has nothing to do with the literal Elijah himself coming, but rather with someone who would come "in the spirit and power of Elijah". Someone like Elijah, in other words. And that was obviously John the Baptist. As Jesus suspected, many would not accept this, including you. Which is why He said this:

Matthew 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

Jesus knew that it would be hard for people to comprehend and accept how it could be that a prophecy that seems to be about Elijah himself could actually be about John the Baptist instead. But, it is. Jesus said so very clearly more than once.

Look, before you apply the New Testament to the Old Testament, first understand the New Testament.

I believe I understand it FAR better than you do, so it's comical to me that you would say this to me.

No. Don't you get it. I can buy a new car or I can buy a restored car. A New Heavens and a New Earth are NOT a restored heavens and a restored earth.

Scripture indicates that heaven and earth will be changed, not completely replaced by a separate heaven and earth. You are the one who doesn't get it because you are not familiar with a lot of scripture. You scripture knowledge is very limited.

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Paul taught that our bodies will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52). Does that mean our bodies will be annihilated and replaced by entirely different bodies? No. The bodies we have will be changed from being mortal to immortal and from natural to spiritual. The heavens and the earth will not be completely annihilated, but they will be completely changed to be eternal and free of sin and death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your post doesn't address my objection, which is that Revelation 20 reads well as a literal description and it doesn't take place in heaven.

What does that even mean for it to read "well as a literal description"? How does reading it literally line up with what Jesus taught here, for example:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Or with what He said in passages like this:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Passages like these indicate that there will be one event in the future when all of the dead are resurrected (not two or more) and that all people will be judged at the same time. How does that line up with your literal understanding of Revelation 20?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Yes, Jesus warned us about deceivers and false Christs and to not "go out" to meet them. At the same time, He and Paul the Apostle taught that he would come in the clouds with great glory and that he would receive us in the air.

He also taught three distinct "end times" scenarios:
1. Flight from Jerusalem
2. Gathering to Jesus in the air
3. Gathering of the Jewish people to Jerusalem.

1. Flight from Jerusalem
In this situation, Jesus warns his people to leave Jerusalem and flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. They are to leave in haste, even if pregnant or on a Sabbath day.

2. Gathering to Jesus in the air.
In this situation, a believer is not required to do anything at all. At the sound of the trumpet the angels will gather those in Christ, both living and dead to meet Jesus Christ in the air.

3. Gathering of the Jewish people to Jerusalem.
In this situation, an angel will mark 144,000 people from all 12 tribes of Judah. These folks will hear the call to come to Jerusalem. Those who head the call, leaving home in haste, will be saved.

 

[Truth7t7]

3. Gathering of the Jewish people to Jerusalem.
In this situation, an angel will mark 144,000 people from all 12 tribes of Judah. These folks will hear the call to come to Jerusalem. Those who head the call, leaving home in haste, will be saved.

The 144,000 represent the "Remnant Church" in the wilderness during the tribulation, they won't be called to Jerusalem as you claim, they will be in the wilderness of Gilead, Bashan, and Carmel, and fed by God manna from heaven, as the world watches in astonishment

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:14-17KJV
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You say that but present no proof apart from your own opinion. That is because there is nothing in the NT to support your contention.

I gave you proof. You don't seem to understand it.

The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature.

We both agree that the kingdom of God has a spiritual component. I disagree with your dualism as if it was impossible for spiritual and physical to coexist. You have adopted an "either/or" philosophical assumption, which is not serving you well. The actual situation is "both/and" where the spiritual and the physical coexist. The kingdom of God is populated by spiritual people, but it will also be located in a physical place. Even Amillennialism teaches that the kingdom of God will be located in a New Heavens and a New Earth, which is a physical location. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul argued against those who argued against the concept of resurrection.

The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah – the King – would rule over.

The Jewish expectation is true and they were right to believe it. You mischaracterize the Pharisaical error. Jesus criticized Pharisaical hypocrisy, not their belief in a literal, visible, territorial kingdom.

The Messianic kingdom is here now.

You know that I believe that the Messianic Kingdom is here now. I also know that we both agreed that the Messianic Kingdom is not yet fully realized.

Try to resist the temptation to repeat the dogma.

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control.

Right, but eventually those whom God is saving will experience resurrection, which is a physical state. BOTH/AND.

This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

This aspect of the kingdom is not yet realized. It will begin during the Millennial period.

This is all your opinion. The kingdom is spiritual, heavenly and eternal. It is not another age like ours in-between "this age" and "the age to come." These are the only 2 ages Jesus and the NT writers recognized.

The Millennial period is located in this age. The Next age begins after the thousand years is over -- after Satan is destroyed.

 

[Truth7t7]

No. Don't you get it. I can buy a new car or I can buy a restored car. A New Heavens and a New Earth are NOT a restored heavens and a restored earth.

I Agree 100%

 

[Truth7t7]

The Millennial period is located in this age. The Next age begins after the thousand years is over -- after Satan is destroyed.

No such thing as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth found in scripture, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You communicate very vaguely sometimes. I'm left to guess as to what you are trying to say.

We all must live within our limitations.

What you're saying here is not convincing at all. You're not going to convince me of anything with your words. Show me the scripture that backs up what you're saying. I find your arguments to be completely unconvincing.

Much can be learned from other people if one would adopt a sympathetic standpoint during a reading session. Are you reading my posts in order to understand what I think, or are you reading my posts looking for things on which to disagree?

One more thing, on my side of the world, over explaining something is tantamount to an insult. My abbreviated explanations are predicated on my respect for you, assuming that you already have a firm grasp on the material. If I were to assume that you didn't have a grasp of the basics, that would be presumptuous and arrogant of me and highly insulting. Do you want me to assume that you don't have a grasp of the basics?

No idea what your point is here. Jesus also said that one must be born of the Spirit (same thing as being born again) in order to enter the kingdom of God.

Yes, both are true. The born-again person is both able to "see" the kingdom of God wherever it manifests, and such a person will enter the kingdom of God at the resurrection.

We are both born again. Do you think we have not yet entered the kingdom of God? We certainly have. We are in His kingdom now. His kingdom that does not come with observation and is not of this world. So, being born again results in seeing (spiritually perceiving) and entering the spiritual kingdom of God. That is what Jesus taught.

While all of that might be true, that is not the meaning of Luke 17:20-21. The kingdom of God doesn't come by observation, but it can be seen by observation if one is ready to accept what he sees. As Jesus points out earlier, the kingdom comes whenever God decides to assert his will.

Consider Luke 11:20 for a minute. "But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Here the Lord associates his miracle with the presence of the Kingdom of God. In other words, the kingdom of God is manifest in this age whenever God makes himself known through supernatural events. In this case, God's power and glory were manifest as he was able to enter the strong man's house and take his stuff. That is, God was able to release the victim from Satan's power.

Obviously, the Kingdom of God does come with observation. Jesus said it himself. The casting out of a demon, in the presence of many witnesses, should be a clear indication that the Kingdom of God had come upon Israel. The Pharisees should have known that, and I suspect they did know it but were unwilling to admit it.

Mostly, but we also disagree on the nature of the kingdom when it initially comes. You see it as a kingdom on earth where sin and death will still occur and I don't.

So then, since the kingdom of God is not on the earth, then it wasn't on earth when Jesus said that the Kingdom had come upon Israel? Your logic breaks down here. Either kingdom is on earth or it isn't.

Where?

We have been down this road already. I will show you an example from the Prophets, but I strongly suspect that you will reject it, dismiss it, or attempt to explain it away. Why do I know this? I know this because of your confessed eisegesis.

The follow passage speaks about a literal physical place.

Isaiah 2:3

And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.​

What say you? Do you believe the prophet?

I see it as being the eternal new heavens and new earth where there will be no more sin and death, but you see it as a temporal kingdom where sin and death will still exist.

We both agreed, I thought, that the kingdom of God first arrived when Jesus began his earthly ministry. As we saw in the Luke passage, Jesus argued that if he cast out a demon by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon them. I think we both agree that as believers and followers of Jesus Christ, we form the nascent beginnings of the kingdom right now. I don't think we disagree on that point.

Now, as for the nature of the kingdom of God, I think the Bible's focus is on the people involved, both the king and his subjects and whether or not God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven. Essentially, the nature of the kingdom of God depends on the nature of its citizens. The nature of creation isn't the main issue. The fact that citizens will exist during a millennial period, doesn't rule out or contradict the fact that they will also enjoy a new heavens and a new earth. These are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

That's what I said. You believe His kingdom will be temporal. And you say in response "No". I can't figure you out.

Both/And.
Consider WPM's insistence that the Second Coming of Christ marks an instantaneous and abrupt end to human history, when the earth is destroyed and eternity begins. His view has no room for a gradual take over of the earth, beginning with the coming of Jesus and ending with the destruction of Satan.

Amillennialism understands the realization of the kingdom in terms of a single event, where God's rule over the earth takes place in a moment, an instant, perhaps a blinking of an eye. On the opposite hand, Premillennialism understands that the rule of God takes place over a long period of time, say a thousand years. In my view, the second option makes more sense because it fits better with the way things actually work. But also consider the following passage.

Hebrews 10:12-14

12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.​

Here the apostle suggests that the process of dominion takes time. Jesus is to sit at the right hand of God, and while he waits, God will take the requisite time to make his enemies a footstool for his feet. The subjugation of the world takes time. And the Millennial period fits nicely within that duration of time.

Where is this taught in scripture? You seem to think that your words alone are convincing. They are not.

Again, I respectfully assume you know the material. Mediate on Ezekiel chapter 36 and Deuteronomy chapter 30.

We all believe that the thousand years has a beginning and end. We just don't all agree that it's a literal one thousand years.

If the Millennial kingdom lasts more than a thousand years, this isn't a problem for my view. Our disagreement centers on the events that immediately transpire after the Second Advent. Amillennialism teaches that history ends and eternity begins at that spot. Premillennialism teaches that after the Second Advent, human history has at least another thousand years to go, during which time God will vindicate his holy name.