22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[covenantee]

Talk about "Forcing" the holy scripture

The pagan Roman's are now God's people and agents in 66-70AD destruction "Laughable"!

It's amazing at how far one will go in falsely promoting preterist 66-70AD fulfillment, "Sad"!

Pagan Roman's, Are People Of Jesus Christ, "Big Smiles"!

Daniel 9:26KJV
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Complete, utter, abject ignorance of the ways in which God has accomplished His purposes.


Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.
11 And when he cometh, he shall smite the land of Egypt, and deliver such as are for death to death; and such as are for captivity to captivity; and such as are for the sword to the sword.

So when God referred to the pagan king Nebuchadrezzar as my servant to accomplish His purposes against Egypt, God was "forcing the holy scripture", and God was "laughable", and God was "sad" and God was "Big Smiles".

Ezekiel 30
24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will break Pharaoh's arms, and he shall groan before him with the groanings of a deadly wounded man.
25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.

So when God said that He would strengthen the arms, and put His sword into the hand, of the pagan king of Babylon, God was "forcing the holy scripture", and God was "laughable", and God was "sad" and God was "Big Smiles".


Take your ignorance somewhere else, and please relieve us of it.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, obviously I didn't know that. Read your post again. You were not only denying a literal 1000 year reign, which is fine, but you were also denying a literal coming back to earth by Jesus!! Shocked me! So you might want to reword and edit what you said?

I understood that you don't believe in a literal earthly Millennium, but then you said Jesus isn't coming back to earth either. You said:

"Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim"

Maybe I just don't understand Amill thinking very well? Since we all believe the creeds--or so I thought, I figure Amills view the 2nd Coming as following a "spiritual Millennium" and Jesus will, for Amills, arrive to rule over the new earth?

But now I'm thinking you guys think that Jesus is just a figment of our imagination? He's a spiritual reality along with a spiritualized new earth? Help me out! I apologize if I misunderstood you! I've been fighting with what I think is COVID the last 4 days--both me and my wife, so bear that in mind. I'm a bit testy.

Scripture Speaks For Itself, Read It Again And Again!

Randy you know well that I believe in the "Second Coming of Jesus Christ" in "Final Judgement", as you have read this post "Several Times", your untrue claims are "Pure Slander"!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

 

[covenantee]

Romans did come and destroy. They were not God's people. They were the people of that evil prince that is still to come one day. That fourth beast is the same beast that the final ten toes come from.

Yes, Messiah is an evil prince.

Keep talking.

 

[WPM]

Oh, so you're defending heresy too? Why am I not surprised. The creeds indicate that virtually all Christians believe Christ is literally coming back to earth to "judge the living and the dead." If you don't believe that, you don't belong on any real Christian forum.

What exactly that he said are you deeming heresy?

 

[Taken]

Randy you know well that I believe in the "Second Coming of Jesus Christ" in "Final Judgement", as you have read this post "Several Times", your untrue claims are "Pure Slander"!

SLANDER is putting in PRINT about another, that which is NOT True.
You have done that.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth,

By the Word of Scripture, that which you claim IS FALSE.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire

, Immediately After The Tribulation

The GREAT Tribulation, IS SEVERE, which is Distinguished BY Gods Tribulation, Wrath, and Allowance, SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN....
IS a duration of 7 Years.

A 1,000 Years of mortal kings, mortals in mortal nations, and The Heavenly KING reigning over mortal kings, IS manifested ON Earth.

At the END of the 1,000 Years, MORE Tribulation OCCURS and ENDS QUICKLY.
*Mortal Nations Come Against the Lords KINGDOM...are defeated.
*Spiritual WAR...Demons defeated.
*ALL Demonic angels ARE sent TO the LAKE of FIRE in Hell, FOREVER.
*ALL mortals are KILLED.
*ALL WITH and WITHOUT the Lord God are JUDGED.
AFTER “THE Tribulation of THOSE DAYS”....
*THEN is the Heavens, Earth, Renewed, The New Jerusalem SENT down from Heaven, and ALL WITH the Lord God, occupy the New Earth, and the Lord God Almighty, Their God Forever.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What exactly that he said are you deeming heresy?

Well, I understand that he doesn't believe in the literal Millennium, which I told him was fine. But then he seemed to double down on the fact Jesus is not literally coming back to this earth.

But now he is telling me I have him wrong. So I'm trying to find out whether his beliefs are typical Amill beliefs about the 2nd Coming or not?

I thought that all Christians, Amill and Premill, believe that Jesus is "coming again?" Is he making some kind of distinction about Jesus' coming that makes it non-literal? Maybe you can answer that question for me?

Whether you believe that at Jesus' Coming a literal Millennium will start or the New Earth will start, we still have Jesus "coming again" to earth! So I don't know why he said that Jesus isn't literally returning to earth?

Please see post #3979.

 

[Truth7t7]

Complete, utter, abject ignorance of the ways in which God has accomplished His purposes.


Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.
11 And when he cometh, he shall smite the land of Egypt, and deliver such as are for death to death; and such as are for captivity to captivity; and such as are for the sword to the sword.

So when God referred to the pagan king Nebuchadrezzar as my servant to accomplish His purposes against Egypt, God was "forcing the holy scripture", and God was "laughable", and God was "sad" and God was "Big Smiles".

Ezekiel 30
24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will break Pharaoh's arms, and he shall groan before him with the groanings of a deadly wounded man.
25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.

So when God said that He would strengthen the arms, and put His sword into the hand, of the pagan king of Babylon, God was "forcing the holy scripture", and God was "laughable", and God was "sad" and God was "Big Smiles".


Take your ignorance somewhere else, and please relieve us of it.

Jesus isn't the "he" in Daniel 9:27, Jesus doesn't make abomination and desolation, the Pagan Roman's in 66-70AD weren't God's people or agents, Daniel's AOD is future unfulfilled

 

[Randy Kluth]

Scripture Speaks For Itself, Read It Again And Again!

Randy you know well that I believe in the "Second Coming of Jesus Christ" in "Final Judgement", as you have read this post "Several Times", your untrue claims are "Pure Slander"!

No, I don't "know well" what you believe. I'm always finding out oddities about others in their belief systems. Since I wander back and forth between several different forums, I can easily get confused about what each person believes.

It's actually "slander" for you to accuse me of slander when I'm just responding to what you literally said! What you literally said was heresy, unless you care to explain. But instead of doing that, you double down on your claim that I "know" certain things about you, that I'm "slandering" you, and don't even attempt to correct what you said, which can easily be taken as heresy, in my opinion.

Furthermore, you insult everybody by putting everything in bold like shouting your doctrines will impress people with the need to believe them! You say you believe in a "New Earth." But you say Jesus will not come back literally and be found anywhere on the New Earth? Please explain, or I'll have nothing more to say.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus isn't the "he" in Daniel 9:27, Jesus doesn't make abomination and desolation, the Pagan Roman's in 66-70AD weren't God's people or agents, Daniel's AOD is future unfulfilled

Predictably, you're unable to respond in the slightest to the Scriptures and evidences that I've presented.

Denial is all that you can do, and all that you have ever done.

 

[Taken]

(The Future Consummation)

Why do you think it necessary to REPEAT to me...
FUTURE Consummation?

 

[WPM]

Well, I understand that he doesn't believe in the literal Millennium, which I told him was fine. But then he seemed to double down on the fact Jesus is not literally coming back to this earth.

But now he is telling me I have him wrong. So I'm trying to find out whether his beliefs are typical Amill beliefs about the 2nd Coming or not?

I thought that all Christians, Amill and Premill, believe that Jesus is "coming again?" Is he making some kind of distinction about Jesus' coming that makes it non-literal? Maybe you can answer that question for me?

Whether you believe that at Jesus' Coming a literal Millennium will start or the New Earth will start, we still have Jesus "coming again" to earth! So I don't know why he said that Jesus isn't literally returning to earth?

Please see post #3979.

But what aspect is "heresy"? Please explain.

 

[dad]

Yes, Messiah is an evil prince.

Keep talking.

Messiah was not the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The guy spoken about in this chapter makes an agreement or covenant for seven years. He breaks it in the middle. Jesus did not break any covenant. let alone one for seven years. The reference also to abominations clearly ties this in with the AntiChrist in the end. It is in the end wrath is poured out. The consumation. That word means this.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) completion, termination, full end, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

1a) completion

1a1) completely, altogether (adverb)

1b) complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Strong's
From H3615; a completion; adverbially completely; also destruction: - altogether, (be, utterly) consume (-d), consummation (-ption), was determined, (full, utter) end, riddance.

That is only possible in the very end. This world sees no other complete destruction than that we see in the tribulation when all kingdoms are destroyed and become His kingdom, and the wicked are destroyed completely.

 

[The Light]

That's my question. Are you willing to answer it?

Sure.

What crucifixion year does dispensationalism's decapitated 70th week require?

AD 30
or
AD 33
?

The question properly asked is what year did the crucifixion take place? The answer to that without question is AD 33. Of course, the truth proves that God is not finished with Israel and will keep His promise to His people. Those who think that they have replaced Israel seem to have a problem with facts. Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks and the 70th week of Daniel has not occurred. Fact.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, I don't "know well" what you believe. I'm always finding out oddities about others in their belief systems. Since I wander back and forth between several different forums, I can easily get confused about what each person believes.

It's actually "slander" for you to accuse me of slander when I'm just responding to what you literally said! What you literally said was heresy, unless you care to explain. But instead of doing that, you double down on your claim that I "know" certain things about you, that I'm "slandering" you, and don't even attempt to correct what you said, which can easily be taken as heresy, in my opinion.

Furthermore, you insult everybody by putting everything in bold like shouting your doctrines will impress people with the need to believe them! You say you believe in a "New Earth." But you say Jesus will not come back literally and be found anywhere on the New Earth? Please explain, or I'll have nothing more to say.

Once again and again, very simple and easy to understand, it's not changing, and yes your accusations were false and slanderous regarding my belief in the second coming and final judgement

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

 

[WPM]

Messiah was not the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The guy spoken about in this chapter makes an agreement or covenant for seven years. He breaks it in the middle. Jesus did not break any covenant. let alone one for seven years. The reference also to abominations clearly ties this in with the AntiChrist in the end. It is in the end wrath is poured out. The consumation. That word means this.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) completion, termination, full end, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

1a) completion

1a1) completely, altogether (adverb)

1b) complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Strong's
From H3615; a completion; adverbially completely; also destruction: - altogether, (be, utterly) consume (-d), consummation (-ption), was determined, (full, utter) end, riddance.

That is only possible in the very end. This world sees no other complete destruction than that we see in the tribulation when all kingdoms are destroyed and become His kingdom, and the wicked are destroyed completely.

He is talking about the temple being desolate from AD70 till the end of the world. You do not believe that. Also, the second coming is not the end to you. It is just a blip on the radar of history.

But what does antichrist do to actually meet these demands? Basically, in what way does he:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

 

[Keraz]

That is only possible in the very end. This world sees no other complete destruction than that we see in the tribulation when all kingdoms are destroyed and become His kingdom, and the wicked are destroyed completely.

Yes; all the ungodly peoples will be killed before or at the glorious Return of Jesus.
But those who remain; Christian peoples, 1 Thess 4:17, will be gathered; Matthew 24:31, and will be with Jesus as He commences His earthly reign.

Any other beliefs about what will happen at the end of this age, are not scriptural and are false teaching.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Once again and again, very simple and easy to understand, it's not changing, and yes your accusations were false and slanderous regarding my belief in the second coming and final judgement

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

You're still shouting like an immature person, by saying everything in bold, as if people won't read your words unless you enhance them somehow. That doesn't say much for your commentary.

Again, the issue was never about the Millennium--it was about Jesus' literal return to earth and his showing up on the new earth. Since you continue to slander me, I'm done with you. I was only suggesting what you said was a heresy because I actually believed it was. I gave you a chance to correct the story, and you make it all about the Millennium. I don't think you know what you believe?

 

[Randy Kluth]

But what aspect is "heresy"? Please explain.

Believing that Jesus is not coming back to the earth is heresy. He said, as I told you, that Jesus will not be able to be found anywhere on earth.

He is saying that Jesus is coming back to judge the earth, but not to live on the earth. Is that what Amills generally believe? Growing up in an Amill environment this was never explained to me--just that Jesus is coming again to judge the earth. But nothing about Jesus coming "just as he had gone." I was told nothing about his existing, as a man, on the New Earth. I just always assumed it was true because the creeds said so, and the angel said so in Acts 1.

How do Amills interpret the following?

Rev 21.22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Does this mean for you that because the Lamb/Jesus is being represented by the symbol of a temple that he will not actually be here on the New Earth? If so, I do believe that's a form of heresy, yes.

It's a simple yes or no question: do you or does he believe that Jesus is literally coming back to the earth to live upon the earth? Is God, in the form of His Son, going to live here on this earth for all eternity, or not?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Messiah was not the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The guy spoken about in this chapter makes an agreement or covenant for seven years. He breaks it in the middle. Jesus did not break any covenant. let alone one for seven years. The reference also to abominations clearly ties this in with the AntiChrist in the end. It is in the end wrath is poured out. The consumation. That word means this.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) completion, termination, full end, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

1a) completion

1a1) completely, altogether (adverb)

1b) complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Strong's
From H3615; a completion; adverbially completely; also destruction: - altogether, (be, utterly) consume (-d), consummation (-ption), was determined, (full, utter) end, riddance.

That is only possible in the very end. This world sees no other complete destruction than that we see in the tribulation when all kingdoms are destroyed and become His kingdom, and the wicked are destroyed completely.

Man, I went round and round on this for many, many years! And my positions changed now and again. In case you're interested I have a different view now--one that satisfies the things that always bothered me. Let me know.

 

[The Light]

Here's another one. Why does Bro. Anderson specify AD 32 instead of AD 33 as Jesus' death year?

I don't know. I guess his calculation is in error, which proves that I am not following what is taught by Bro Anderson. If I were to speculate, I would say that he forgot there is no year zero. The years go from 1 BC to 1 AD, but as I said, that is only my speculation.