22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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WPM

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Believing that Jesus is not coming back to the earth is heresy. He said, as I told you, that Jesus will not be able to be found anywhere on earth.

He is saying that Jesus is coming back to judge the earth, but not to live on the earth. Is that what Amills generally believe? Growing up in an Amill environment this was never explained to me--just that Jesus is coming again to judge the earth. But nothing about Jesus coming "just as he had gone." I was told nothing about his existing, as a man, on the New Earth. I just always assumed it was true because the creeds said so, and the angel said so in Acts 1.

How do Amills interpret the following?

Rev 21.22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Does this mean for you that because the Lamb/Jesus is being represented by the symbol of a temple that he will not actually be here on the New Earth? If so, I do believe that's a form of heresy, yes.

It's a simple yes or no question: do you or does he believe that Jesus is literally coming back to the earth to live upon the earth? Is God, in the form of His Son, going to live here on this earth for all eternity, or not?

He did not say anything otherwise. While the general Amil belief is that Jesus is coming back to the new earth, how is this heresy?
 

CadyandZoe

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The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." So, please address the question or admit that your claim is wrong.
No, it is up to you to prove that it matters. It doesn't matter. All that matters, for now, is that the people have returned.
 

CadyandZoe

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"The Day Of The Lord" is the last day of man and earths existence (The End)
According to the Bible, the Eschaton comes after Satan's little season which is after the Millennial kingdom. Both of these situations are included in the era of time known as the Day of the Lord.
 

WPM

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No, it is up to you to prove that it matters. It doesn't matter. All that matters, for now, is that the people have returned.

Those who hate Christ are not the people of God. They are apostate and of their father the devil. That is a NT fact.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Those who hate Christ are not the people of God. They are apostate and of their father the devil. That is a NT fact.
Not every Jewish person hates God. And I suspect that most Jewish people have never read the New Testament. I wouldn't judge 21st century people through a first century lens.

DOL 03a Joel Chapter one
 

WPM

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According to the Bible, the Eschaton comes after Satan's little season which is after the Millennial kingdom. Both of these situations are included in the era of time known as the Day of the Lord.

Not so! It happens when Jesus comes as a thief in the night. You have been ducking around this issue for long enough. The unindoctrinated Bible student should have no difficulty in understanding the meaning and weightiness of the phrases/events “the beginning” and “the end.” That is because they mean what they say. These expressions are often used on their own throughout Scripture because the Holy Spirit evidently expects the believer to take God literally at His Word and accept these plain and obvious statements at face value.

Whether one is reading a book, watching a movie, or observing a ball-game, the concept of “the beginning” and “the end” of something is too obvious to even debate or explain. Hello! It is as clear as clear can be. We are talking about normal 101 common sense. One is the complete antithesis of the other.

When it comes to this scene of time, Scripture makes clear that it is not going to last forever. It shows that this current fallen corrupted realm has an expiration date. Just like there was a beginning to this earth, time, human life, and creation, there will equally be an end.

For example, look at what Solomon declared in Ecclesiastes 3:11: “He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.”


Would an objective Christian question the meaning of “the beginning” and “the end” here? I don’t think so! It is plain in its import and context.

The Old Testament prophets and the New Testament writers frequently referred to the beginning of creation, this world, time, and life as simply “the beginning” and the termination of time, the removal of the bondage of corruption and the introduction of the new eternal state as “the end.”

Premillennialists, and a growing number of Preterists, try to dilute the normal and accepted meaning of the phrase of “the end” to totally negate its obvious meaning in order to support their preconceived doctrine. While they have no difficulty whatsoever comprehending the meaning of the phrase “the beginning” because it does not interfere with their theology, they seem to get sudden brain freeze, spiritual rickets and quickly go cross-eyed when it comes to the meaning of the phrase “the end.” That is because it cuts across their theology. The end cannot be the end in their theology but must rather be a parenthesis in history along the road on the way to “the end” in order to let their doctrine fit. In doing this, Premils totally negate the very meaning of this familiar phrase and climactic event.

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, Thou, Lord, in the beginning [Gr. archē] hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”


Here we see the duration of this current earth and the whole span of time outlined from the beginning till the end. This corresponds with the current creation around us. It describes the forming of the earth (which was originally perfect), followed by the gradual decay after the Fall (because of the bondage of corruption), and its final replacement at the end to a new glorified eternal incorrupt status.

The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning end. The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished. Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” (telos) to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of this age and of time.

Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time”; “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”
 

Randy Kluth

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He did not say anything otherwise. While the general Amil belief is that Jesus is coming back to the new earth, how is this heresy?

I gave you a direct quote from him. It was not about the 1000 years reign. It was about the fact he said Jesus will not be found anywhere on the earth! I gave him ample opportunity to reword his statement to avoid misunderstanding, and he just rattles on.

Can't you see I'm just trying to clarify? In post #3952 he writes:

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)
Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception
Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim
The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!
"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"


I wasn't concerned that he didn't believe Jesus will be here for a literal Millennium. I was concerned because *apart from that* he said that Jesus himself said he won't be found anywhere upon this earth.

He had just mentioned that Jesus wouldn't be here in the "Millennium" so now he's saying Jesus won't ever be found on this earth? Try to put these two thoughts together and see if you can make sense of it?

I asked him straight out if he believed that Jesus will *ever* come to live here on earth? And so far he has not answered me, except to double down on the fact he believes Jesus is coming back to judge--nothing about him being here on the earth.

Don't you think that's a bit strange when he could clarify things so easily and quickly, without all of this headache?
 
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WPM

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It's WPM that runs from "The Consummation" seen in Daniel 9:27, because it destroys your preterist 66-70AD claims of Daniel's AOD fulfillment

The scripture doesn't change, will the bad guy be present on earth until the future consummation 100% "YES"!!!

It surely didn't take place in your preterist reformed eschatology 66-70AD that you promote and claim, it's a future event unfulfilled, it's that simple, read it again and again


Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled


This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation


1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

  1. What event will/did "finish the transgression"?
  2. What event will/did "make an end of sins"?
  3. What event will/did "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
  4. What event will/did "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
  5. What event will/did "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
  6. What event will/did "anoint the most Holy”?
 
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WPM

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Not every Jewish person hates God. And I suspect that most Jewish people have never read the New Testament. I wouldn't judge 21st century people through a first century lens.

DOL 03a Joel Chapter one

You are avoiding the obvious again. We are not talking about any other lens apart from the biblical lens. You seem to struggle with that.
 

WPM

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I gave you a direct quote from him. It was not about the 1000 years reign. It was about the fact he said Jesus will not be found anywhere on the earth! I gave him ample opportunity to reword his statement to avoid misunderstanding, and he just rattles on.

Can't you see I'm just trying to clarify?

No, you are hurling the "heresy" charge out unguardedly, like you do with other false charges, either without any understanding of its meaning, or else you are doing it deliberately in an attempt to offend or provoke other posters - just because they disagree with you. You really need to moderate your language and calm down.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Not every Jewish person hates God. And I suspect that most Jewish people have never read the New Testament. I wouldn't judge 21st century people through a first century lens.

DOL 03a Joel Chapter one

Absolutely true! The Scriptures indicate that God has consigned Israel to the place the pagans formerly occupied, since they, as a people, had rejected their Messiah. Now God wishes to show Israel grace just as He's shown grace to the pagan peoples of the world!
 
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Randy Kluth

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Since Dan 9 is being discussed, I think I'll just throw my latest view of this out there. This after years of running into contradictions with each view I took.

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression (to complete Israel's final sin rejecting Messiah), to put an end to sin (to remove lawless Israel from the land), to atone for wickedness (Christ's atoning death on the cross), to bring in everlasting righteousness (Christ's gift of righteousness to his people), to seal up vision and prophecy (Jesus' fulfillment as Messiah) and to anoint the Most Holy Place (made a place in heaven available for his people).

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens’ (Jesus will come after 483 years). It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble (Jerusalem was rebuit in the time of Nehemiah). 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing (Jesus died without taking up his Kingdom). The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary (the Romany army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD and following). The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed (the time of Jerusalem's fall would be marked by warfare and judgment against Israel). 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’ (the Roman general would ally with the Jews against Jesus' ministry, which would complete the 70 Weeks). In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering (the Roman general will end the efficacy of temple worship by having Jesus killed after 3.5 years). And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation (the Roman general will establish a siege against Jerusalem), until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (the end of Rome?).

I'm following the pronouns consistently in the way they make sense to me. The "people of the ruler to come" seems obvious, because they are the ones who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. So, to be consistent, the following pronouns would refer to him, the covenant with the Jews ultimately putting Jesus to death and preventing his Kingdom from being established.

And Jesus made clear in Luke 21 that it was the Roman Army which surrounded Jerusalem and led to Israel's dispersion, which is to last throughout the age. It makes sense to me that Daniel is here treating the temple, as a subject, and is led to describe the work of Messiah, along with the destruction of a rebuilt temple of Herod.
 

Randy Kluth

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No, you are hurling the "heresy" charge out unguardedly, like you do with other false charges, either without any understanding of its meaning, or else you are doing it deliberately in an attempt to offend or provoke other posters - just because they disagree with you. You really need to moderate your language and calm down.

You can't ever comment on a subject without bringing up past concerns. Not interested!
 

WPM

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You can't ever comment on a subject without bringing up past concerns. Not interested!

Of course! This is your MO, and, sadly, you refuse to change. Now you are blaming your bitterness and slander on Covid. That is the lamest excuse yet. What is your excuse for your daily bile before Covid?
 

Randy Kluth

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Of course! This is your MO, and, sadly, you refuse to change. Now you are blaming your slander on Covid. That is the lamest excuse yet. What is your excuse for your daily bile before Covid?

Not interested. Your lack of Christian love is noted.
 

jeffweeder

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  1. What event will/did "finish the transgression"?
  2. What event will/did "make an end of sins"?
  3. What event will/did "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
  4. What event will/did "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
  5. What event will/did "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
  6. What event will/did "anoint the most Holy”?

1. Jesus hanging on the cross
2. Jesus hanging on the cross
3. Jesus hanging on the cross
4. What Jesus did on the cross ...for us.
5. Jesus own testimony and life
6. Jesus risen life from our death sentence, anointed the Holy of Holies forevermore for us.
 
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covenantee

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Sure.


The question properly asked is what year did the crucifixion take place? The answer to that without question is AD 33. Of course, the truth proves that God is not finished with Israel and will keep His promise to His people. Those who think that they have replaced Israel seem to have a problem with facts. Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks and the 70th week of Daniel has not occurred. Fact.
As expected, the dispensationally decapitated 70th week requires a crucifixion year of AD 33.

Here's Israel.

Genetically, the entirety of humanity.

Corroborated empirically by the Jewish community itself.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Demonstrated mathematically.

Example of ancestral genetic ubiquity:

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

BY CARL ZIMMER

Nobody in my past was hugely famous, at least that I know of. I vaguely recall that an ancestor of mine who shipped over on the Mayflower distinguished himself by falling out of the ship and having to get fished out of the water. He might be notable, I guess, but hardly famous. It is much more fun to think that I am a bloodline descendant of Charlemagne. And in 1999, Joseph Chang gave me permission to think that way.

Chang was not a genealogist who had decided to make me his personal project. Instead, he is a statistician at Yale who likes to think of genealogy as a mathematical problem. When you draw your genealogy, you make two lines from yourself back to each of your parents. Then you have to draw two lines for each of them, back to your four grandparents. And then eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and so on. But not so on for very long. If you go back to the time of Charlemagne, forty generations or so, you should get to a generation of a trillion ancestors. That’s about two thousand times more people than existed on Earth when Charlemagne was alive.

The only way out of this paradox is to assume that our ancestors are not independent of one another. That is, if you trace their ancestry back, you loop back to a common ancestor. We’re not talking about first-cousin stuff here–more like twentieth-cousin. This means that instead of drawing a tree that fans out exponentially, we need to draw a web-like tapestry.

In a paper he published in 1999 [pdf], Chang analyzed this tapestry mathematically. If you look at the ancestry of a living population of people, he concluded, you’ll eventually find a common ancestor of all of them. That’s not to say that a single mythical woman somehow produced every European by magically laying a clutch of eggs. All this means is that as you move back through time, sooner or later some of the lines in the genealogy will cross, meeting at a single person.

As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”

In 2002, the journalist Steven Olson wrote an article in the Atlantic about Chang’s work. To put some empirical meat on the abstract bones of Chang’s research, Olson considered a group of real people–living Europeans.

The most recent common ancestor of every European today (except for recent immigrants to the Continent) was someone who lived in Europe in the surprisingly recent past—only about 600 years ago. In other words, all Europeans alive today have among their ancestors the same man or woman who lived around 1400. Before that date, according to Chang’s model, the number of ancestors common to all Europeans today increased, until, about a thousand years ago, a peculiar situation prevailed: 20 percent of the adult Europeans alive in 1000 would turn out to be the ancestors of no one living today (that is, they had no children or all their descendants eventually died childless); each of the remaining 80 percent would turn out to be a direct ancestor of every European living today.

Suddenly, my pedigree looked classier: I am a descendant of Charlemagne. Of course, so is every other European. By the way, I’m also a descendant of Nefertiti. And so are you, and everyone else on Earth today. Chang figured that out by expanding his model from living Europeans to living humans, and getting an estimate of 3400 years instead of a thousand for the all-ancestor generation.

Things have changed a lot in the fourteen years since Chang published his first paper on ancestry. Scientists have amassed huge databases of genetic information about people all over the world. These may not be the same thing as a complete genealogy of the human race, but geneticists can still use them to tackle some of the same questions that intrigued Chang.

Recently, two geneticists, Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California and Graham Coop of the University of California at Davis, decided to look at the ancestry of Europe. They took advantage of a compilation of information about 2257 people from across the continent. Scientists had examined half a million sites in each person’s DNA, creating a distinctive list of genetic markers for each of them.

You can use this kind of genetic information to make some genealogical inferences, but you have to know what you’re dealing with. Your DNA is not a carbon copy of your parents’. Each time they made eggs or sperm, they shuffled the two copies of each of their chromosomes and put one in the cell. Just as a new deck gets more scrambled the more times you shuffle it, chromosomes get more shuffled from one generation to the next.

This means that if you compare two people’s DNA, you will find some chunks that are identical in sequence. The more closely related people are, the bigger the chunks you’ll find. This diagram shows how two first cousins share a piece of DNA that’s identical by descent (IBD for short).

Ralph and Coop identified 1.9 million of these long shared segments of DNA shared by at least two people in their study. They then used the length of each segment to estimate how long ago it arose from a common ancestor of the living Europeans.

Their results, published today in PLOS Biology, both confirm Chang’s mathematical approach and enrich it. Even within the past thousand years, Ralph and Coop found, people on opposite sides of the continent share a lot of segments in common–so many, in fact, that it’s statistically impossible for them to have gotten them all from a single ancestor. Instead, someone in Turkey and someone in England have to share a lot of ancestors. In fact, as Chang suspected, the only way to explain the DNA is to conclude that everyone who lived a thousand years ago who has any descendants today is an ancestor of every European. Charlemagne for everyone!

If you compare two people in Turkey, you’ll find bigger shared segments of DNA, which isn’t surprising. Since they live in the same country, chances are they have more recent ancestors, and more of them. But there is a rich, intriguing pattern to the number of shared segments among Europeans. People across Eastern Europe, for example, have a larger set of shared segments than people from within single countries in Western Europe. That difference may be the signature of a big expansion of the Slavs.

Ralph and Coop’s study may provide a new tool for reconstructing the history of humans on every continent, not just Europe. It will also probably keep people puzzling over the complexities of genealogy.


How does God distinguish genetic Jews from genetic Jews?

It matters not one whit.

Because God has only two covenant criteria.

Two spiritual genes.

Faith and obedience.

Abraham's Spiritual DNA.

And nothing else.
 
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WPM

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1. Jesus hanging on the cross
2. Jesus hanging on the cross
3. Jesus hanging on the cross
4. What Jesus did on the cross ...for us.
5. Jesus own testimony and life
6. Jesus risen life from our death sentence, anointed the Holy of Holies forevermore for us.

Thanks bro! It is impossible to get Dispys to answer this.
 

WPM

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Not interested. Your lack of Christian love is noted.

Please do not lecture anyone here or in the real world about love or godly language. Here is a little of your venom towards Amils:

For you Eternal Life seems to be a concept, a doctrine, rather than a life experience

you must be spiritually blind

I'm arguing with someone who has no sense of discernment!

You just seem to be a little more open--angry, paranoid perhaps

Are you even a real Christian?

How long have you been hood-winking people like this?

Like the carnal person that you are

you've proven yourself to be incorrigible, unteachable, and narcissistic. You seem to be looking for followers, for confirmation that you're right. Why else would you make this an idol?

I lose interest in reading the rest of your trash talk.

It's a work of your own, and not a work of the Lord.

What kind of weird cult do you belong to that you don't believe basic Christian doctrine? Surely you don't belong here, spreading heresy among Christians
 
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covenantee

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Messiah was not the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The guy spoken about in this chapter makes an agreement or covenant for seven years. He breaks it in the middle. Jesus did not break any covenant. let alone one for seven years. The reference also to abominations clearly ties this in with the AntiChrist in the end. It is in the end wrath is poured out. The consumation. That word means this.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) completion, termination, full end, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

1a) completion

1a1) completely, altogether (adverb)

1b) complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Strong's
From H3615; a completion; adverbially completely; also destruction: - altogether, (be, utterly) consume (-d), consummation (-ption), was determined, (full, utter) end, riddance.

That is only possible in the very end. This world sees no other complete destruction than that we see in the tribulation when all kingdoms are destroyed and become His kingdom, and the wicked are destroyed completely.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...

Matthew 26:28 NASB
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Quote the NT Scripture in which antichrist confirms a covenant with many.


Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) completion, termination, full end, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Describes exactly the fate of Israel in 70 AD.
 
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