22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Timtofly

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Will no one mourn the death of someone who dies before a hundred years of age at that time?
No. Rebellion is not a mourning event. That is the whole point of being cursed. This is not about a natural death. That is non existent. It is the stopping of rebellion and sin. It is the literal Death sentence to any child who disobeys. What you miss in your explanation is the swift and without remorse the end of disobedience. Disobedience will not be natural, nor tolerated. Satan is not the only created being who can think of ways they could do things better than God can. People who are called the children of that wicked one are considered cursed and can only follow after Satan. Isaiah declares that could happen even in a perfect world without sin and death. Obviously your interpretation follows your Amil bias. The word cursed is not about living forever.

The word cursed is in there for a reason, and seems Amil cannot explain that reason away. A curse is placed on any human who has a mind like Satan's that can only think contrary to God. Do you question why God allowed a creation like Satan or any human that ends up with a mind that can only go against God. Do you think God is unfair that this unfortunate type of mind can exist? You don't have to answer, but that is a stark reality and Satan is the proverbial poster child of such a mind. And we know humans are sometimes cursed with the inability of controlling their mind. Proof that even perfect humans can have an imperfect mind. And no, death that is physical is not mentioned, so your point is moot. This is not about natural physical death, although that follows as implied. It is talking about total separation from God, spiritual. That is the implication of this curse in Isaiah 65. But if you want to continue this type of curse into your eternal bliss, then that is on you. Still does not refute that Isaiah 65 is about a future Millennium.
 

Timtofly

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I don't believe there is such a thing. It doesn't make any sense. But, notice that it says that "he lay hold of the dragon" and then proceeds to remind everyone that the dragon is "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan". So, it's actually portraying a dragon being chained up, which would obviously be with a physical chain. It's figurative text representing the spiritual binding of Satan.
Why not? You declare Satan is currently on a spiritual "dog chain" going about destroying life spiritually.

The only difference is this binding literally prevents Satan from doing anything but thinking about ways to deceive humans after the Millennium.
 

Timtofly

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Because Satan is a spirit being and it's talking about physical things like a dragon being chained up in a prison. I've already explained this many times and you still have to ask me "why not?".
Wait now, what? A dragon in all these verses is a physical thing?

The symbolism is that John uses the implication of a dragon, not that John is actually seeing a dragon.

You really accept John saw an actual dragon?

If so, you are really thinking John was dreaming about dragons, and that was God's way of showing him the future? That is really some kind of messed up belief system there. Next you are going to say, Daniel really did not see the angel Gabriel, but was thinking he was dreaming about seeing the angel Gabriel.

If you think all contact with angels is just in one's mind, are you saying that Lot and those in Sodom did not actually see those angels? They just thought in their minds, they were there? Obviously to you all these "spiritual beings" cannot literally be seen in the physical. God is manipulating our minds to think we see something physical, when really we cannot.

Is that why you keep insisting Satan is not physical but spiritual?

I think you are wrong. Being physical and spiritual is something given special to humans. As sons of God we are equally physical and spiritual at the same time. We were put on earth to have dominion over the physical creation that was not in itself spiritual. Yes, I accept stars are physical lights in the firmament and all of them fit in an area equal to the area we have on earth. No, there is not a 14 billion year old universe that stretches to infinity. If there are trillions of stars, there are trillions of angels doing their job in the firmament, like the sons of God were supposed to be doing their jobs on earth. They also could harmonize together like Job claims. The morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy. The angels sang and the humans shouted. Both equally physical and spiritual.

Adam's disobedience literally changed heaven and earth. Humans from Adam's fallen image are spiritually blind and separated from the spiritual part of creation. So we can be just as much a spirit being as angels can appear as a physical being. They actually can do everything a human can do, except procreate. Yes procreation can be physically taken away.

Although that statement may insinuate other points humans may find nonsensical. It was Adam who coined the phenomenon wife, marrying, and the act of procreation we understand. That was only after God split Adam into two genders. You think of it as a "cloning act", with different outcomes. Or you don't think about it at all, just accept it. It is plausible that sons of God were both male and female, but of course that goes against Victorian orthodox catholic teaching that has been the accepted human stance for hundreds of years. No, I don't think modern lgbt acceptance has anything to do with being a son of God.

The point is that at the start there was no division of spiritual and physical and a very strong implication of no division of gender, as that was a declared act by God before the division of spiritual and physical. Will there be genders as sons of God? Not that we cannot multiply, but it will go back to before Eve was separated from Adam. That is why we will be as the angels. We will literally be as we were on the 6th day. If you think that is nonsense, explain why God did not bring another female into the garden. Or why were there not two sons of God in the Garden. Explain why God literally took Eve out of Adam. And that did not happen on the 6th day either. On the 6th day there were many sons of God. That was defined by the word them. All of them were created the same way on the 6th day. Adam was not put to sleep on the 6th day, and that made Eve and him, them. There were not hundreds of generations while God rested from His creating, from Adam and Eve. There were hundreds of generations of the sons of God while God rested on the Day of the Lord. Generations plural, Day of the Lord, singular. Genesis 2.
 

Timtofly

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Did you comprehend what I was trying to say in the rest of my post?

I was pointing out that billions of people remain outside the camp of the saints during this future millennium.
They had a 1000 years to get right with God, with the Glorified Jesus And the Glorified camp of the saints present before them , but didnt commit.
A complete utter waste of time...which is why a future millennium will never happen...,

Today is the day of salvation through sanctification through the Spirit An FAITH in what we do not see. The appearing of Jesus brings nothing but Judgment for those who did not love truth so as to be saved .

2Thess 2

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Stand Firm
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Lets back up to Pauls first Chapter as he lays the foundation for this simple truth...,


5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.
Nope.

All on earth are without sin period. They are born without sin. 20 to 30 generations of sinless humans in the 10's of billions.

Only after the Millennium are they deceived, and not a second sooner.

All the wicked were killed before the Millennium. All were resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

They all had permanent incorruptible physical bodies. No one will grow old nor die. They will look young for the whole 1,000 years.

Isaiah says at 100 you are still a child. That is every 100 years, nine more times and they all still look young. After 800 years they will not look like 80 year olds. People will not give birth every 100 years. There will be a new generation every 20 years. And they will not necessarily stop having children. Their youngest will be born at the same time as the last generation. That is not making stuff up. That is common sense everyday natural life, but without sin and death.

And that is not about having carnal minded thoughts. Procreation was designed by God. It is not a carnal human invention. Carnal mindedness demands humans abort the natural God given reason for procreation. Carnal wickedness actually destroys procreation.

You are the carnal minded one thinking there are billions of wicked humans getting away with wicked, carnal, evil imaginations for 1,000 years. If you all would stop this made up nonsense there would be 0 reasons to give up pre-mill.

Obviously the Millennium takes too much spiritual discernment for some to actually understand what is going to happen, and all Amil can do is mock God's Word, and reject what little we do know about what will happen. So Amil stoop to making up nonsense, so they can prove their made up nonsense cannot be defended. Well I do not see a need to even defend such nonsense. I guess Amil won their own made up battles. Chopping down windmills that don't even exist.

Those verses deal with standing strong in the here and now. Why would you insist they are necessary in a future millennium? Even if a third rebel like a third of the angels, that still leaves twice as many faithful as there are against God. You make it sound like 99% rebel and only 1% are faithful. Not sure where you are getting your numbers from. They sound made up.
 

Phoneman777

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Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the Premillennialism doctrine, and are strong reasons why I believe the dogma should be rejected.

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premil that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or "Revelation 20 says." This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise "what saith the Scripture." The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys NO other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

(2) Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

(3) The detail Premil attributes to Revelation 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Revelation 20 does not remotely say what Premil attribute to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Revelation 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

· For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?
· Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.
· They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching.
· Premillennialists speak about the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing.
· They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.
· They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons. The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together is quickly broken as the slaughter truck roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the truck speeds off the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem they pointlessly slit the throats of the lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.

(4) Premillennialists interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. Premillennialists have to insert “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist. This is called adding unto Scripture, something forbidden in the Word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32 and Revelation 22:18).

(5) Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation. The interpretation placed on the Old Testament by Christ and the New Testament writers override all other opinions and interpretations of man. As Augustine wrote: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”
Premillennialism doesn't solely rely on Revelation 20, although it is strong evidence for it.

Everyone acknowledges the period of our present human occupation of the Earth.

Everyone also acknowledges the coming eternal period of our human occupation in the "Earth made new".

But, because of cherished eschatological errors, most refuse to acknowledge the coming period of total Earthly desolation. Isaiah tells of it. Jeremiah tells of it. Peter tells of it. The Psalmist tells of it. But, both Jesuit Preterists and Jesuit Futurists refuse to acknowledge it due to their inability to find a place for it on their "non-stop, uninterrupted Earthly human activity" eschatological timelines. They insist on jamming their square peg end times errors into the well-roundedness of the Bible truth.

No matter, the truth is still truth, even if not a single soul believes it. There's only one place on the eschatological timeline this period of desolation fits: between the Resurrection of the Just when Jesus comes in glory to collect the sleeping and alive saints to take them to heaven, and the Resurrection of the Damned 1,000 years later.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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I believe it.....its been happening for nearly 2000 years. The Israel that repented and followed the Lord established the Church.
Anyone who attaches himself to Gospel NT truth will not come into Judgment and they will reign in life they are living now today....not tomorrow.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
This is the first resurrection (transference from death to life ) we experience as new born babes and the most important one we will get acquainted with. Participate in this reality now and you will in no way come into the judgment of the second death at the GWT.

Jn 5 cont...
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. Those who hear and believe are covered and cleansed forever by his own blood, and the second death hath no power at all over us. His grace is sufficient for us Amen.

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

That time is now according to Johns prior revelation.
This is salvation.

The promise made to Israel has nothing to do with salvation. Anyone who says it does would be saying Every person born of Abraham through his grandson jacob is saved.

This is what they jews thought.. This is where they got it wrong. God promised them land, and peace in that land. Because he had a plan for them

They misinterpreted that promise. As many are doing today by trying to replace israel with the church.

Non of the verses you give shows God is done wiht Israel. If (actually WHEN) they repent. God says he will remember his covenant with Abraham Isaac and Jacob, He will remember th eland (lev 26) God says in Ezekiel 37 that when they repent, He will take these two nations, which were scattered for their sins against him, And bring them back into the land, He will make them one nation again, And they will have one king, which they have not has since they divided itself between the northern and southern kingdom.

Ezek 37: 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Replacement theology is false
 

stunnedbygrace

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This is talking about the new heaven and new earth it’s our future heaven that’s the “it” in verse 20.

There’s no more death in it because they are in heaven. The ones that die are considered acursed because they spiritually died and are in hell.

Do you see how the verse you left out verse 17 is the exact same event as revelation 21:1?

Yes, I see that. But I see that prophecy jumps around. One sec talking about a human king in current day, one sec talking about an odd prince you could swear was satan. One verse talking about near future, another talking about far future. Once you see that, you can’t unsee it. It makes you begin to read prophecy differently, wherein you see what doesn’t fit with what you thought you were reading about.

My very first confusion (of many!) came in that it seemed to say God always removes the righteous before His wrath but other verses seemed to say He removes the wicked from out of among the righteous. Then I saw the two reapings in revelation and it was cleared up some for me. (Then there’s that pesky verse about how He will destroy the righteous along with the wicked, don’t even wanna go there right now!)

Now, I just always see verses that don’t seem to fit. They stand out so starkly I can’t miss them. And I don’t have the tendency in me to try to think of how I can get it to fit. I just see that it doesn’t, so I look for where it DOES fit. And it doesn’t bother me so much as it does some that others can’t see what I see. It doesn’t make me angry, it doesn’t make me call them stupid, it doesn’t increase my blood pressure or make me scream in all caps. I just go by what I can see and…I don’t know, it just doesn’t bother me. I just walk by the light I DO have and that’s all any of us can do.

In all doctrines of men and systematic eschatologies, I always see what DOESNT fit their framework. I just see it.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Premill teaches that Tim , as the unrepentant somehow remain alive at the Lords coming for a 1000 years.

I realize that’s how you see what is being said, but I believe the tribulation does not leave many alive with which to begin to repopulate the world over the course of the thousand year age and those relatively few who do remain (who didn’t take the mark) are the ones who enter into it. Sort of like a repeat of the flood. Which is another odd thing I see which I don’t know how to explain but…I get glimpses of how Genesis seems to begin working backward in a repeat. That’s probably not going to be understood by anyone. I do catch glimpses of it though.
 

stunnedbygrace

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With this type of ad-hoc approach to Bible interpretation you could make the Bible say anything you wish. It is so wrong!

I can’t help it. It’s how I see. I see it jumps around, overlaps in places, I even see how one passage is a more broad outline and another is a more meticulously detailed outline, but only of a portion of the broader outline.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Nope.

All on earth are without sin period. They are born without sin. 20 to 30 generations of sinless humans in the 10's of billions.

Only after the Millennium are they deceived, and not a second sooner.
Mind if I ask where you got this from? I have never heard of this
 

Eternally Grateful

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And, once again, you are misrepresenting my view. No, I don't want a new earth with sin and death. All you have are false accusations. That's it. You're obviously very immature and are in over your head here.
Ok

So you do not want it

Yet when a passage says there is sin and death.

You claim its the new heaven and earth

I am immature? I am just stating what you are telling me..

Its ok. I do not expect you to understand, I never did..

All you have done is further strengthened my belief and shown me even more reasons why I should not turn to your view.

Thank youi
 

WPM

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No matter, the truth is still truth, even if not a single soul believes it. There's only one place on the eschatological timeline this period of desolation fits: between the Resurrection of the Just when Jesus comes in glory to collect the sleeping and alive saints to take them to heaven, and the Resurrection of the Damned 1,000 years later.

I totally disagree with your conclusions. Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is now and there is then – there is no in-between. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there is no intervening time-period or temporal age in between “this age” and “the age to come.” It is within the bounds of this juxtapose alone that we understand the whole eschatological arrangement, with its two unique diverse worlds. Kim Riddlebarger explains: “the two-age model is very simple in its structure and is based on texts that can only be described as clear and straightforward” (A Present or Future Millennium?).

Let us see what the Bible attributes to the oft-mentioned time-period “this age” [Gr. aion]. Galatians 1:4 tells us that Christ gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world [Gr. aion or age], according to the will of God and our Father.”

According to this passage, what is “this age” particularly known for? What sets it apart from the age to come?

It is “evil”! The Greek word for evil is poneros! The meaning of this word is: “hurtful in effect or influence.” The word indicates ‘degeneracy from original virtue’. We do not need to look too far to realize that it is talking about our current age. In fact, evil has been with us since the fall, and will be with us to the second coming. This gives us immediate insight into the starting and finishing point of “this age.”

This age is constantly depicted throughout Scripture as being plagued by the existence of sin, decay and death. It is never portrayed as a pleasant, pristine or lasting state. In fact, Galatians 1:4 describes this age as “this present evil age;” one that Christ came to “deliver” us from through His death. Evil marks the period of time in-between the fall and the second coming of Christ. We can therefore confidently conclude that “this age” that we are looking at is still with us.

Paul the apostle tells us in Ephesians 5:16 that we should be: “redeeming the time, because the days are evil.”

This is a present ongoing reality on planet earth.

The age to come has completely different, unique and elevated qualities that this age does not possess. It is characterized by incorruption, eternal life and perfection. It is a glorified existence that forbid any form of sin, mortality and corruption. Repeated Scripture tells us that the curse upon man will only last until Christ returns. It also tells us that the current heavens and earth will one day be replaced by a new regenerated heavens and earth. That is because the current arrangement has been corrupted by sin. As a consequence, our universe is finite and deteriorating, and its history will one day come to an end. All chronology currently sits in between creation and the consummation of all things. The whole of Scripture (Old Testament and New Testament) looks forward to the glorious day of restoration and perfection with expectancy. All creation waits with eager anticipation for that glorious moment when depravity and decay will finally be banished from creation forever.

Luke 20:27-33 records: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Christ replies in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Luke adds more meat on the bones compared to what Matthew shares in his parallel account. Luke shows Christ rebuking the cunningness of the Sadducees and their attempt to deny a future physical resurrection at His return. Luke 20:27-36 clearly demonstrates that the defining moment of change between this age and the age to come is the time of the Lord’s return and the physical resurrection, not AD70 as Preterists claim. It is nowhere shown to be the change from the old covenant to the new covenant, as they argue.

It is impossible to miss the constant scriptural comparison between “this world” and “that world” or “this age” and “that age.” There is no additional age recognized. In text reinforces that repeated biblical truth. Those who live in this current evil age are described here as “the children of this world/age” but those who are depicted as being “worthy to obtain that age” to come are described exclusively as “the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” and are said to be “equal unto the angels.” There is no other way of reading this.

One must be appropriately qualified in order inherit the new world to come. They must be glorified on the day of redemption. Those that are worthy to obtain that age are not mortals and not sinners; they are rather glorified saints – who incidentally never marry or die.

The contrast here moves from: ‘marriage’ to ‘no marriage’, ‘death’ to ‘no death’. Marriage disappears! Death disappears! The turning point is the glorious coming of Christ and the resurrection that accompanies it.

Jesus outlines in clear tones the incorruptibility and the glory of the future state. This is not the case with the Premillennial and Preterist age to come; marriage, divorce, funerals and mourning continue unabated. This passage forbids both the Premillennial and Preterist theories.
 

WPM

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I realize that’s how you see what is being said, but I believe the tribulation does not leave many alive with which to begin to repopulate the world over the course of the thousand year age and those relatively few who do remain (who didn’t take the mark) are the ones who enter into it. Sort of like a repeat of the flood. Which is another odd thing I see which I don’t know how to explain but…I get glimpses of how Genesis seems to begin working backward in a repeat. That’s probably not going to be understood by anyone. I do catch glimpses of it though.

How many wicked survived the flood?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Is 65: No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

We have Children being born
We have death
We have sinners being cursed.

 

WPM

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Yes, I see that. But I see that prophecy jumps around. One sec talking about a human king in current day, one sec talking about an odd prince you could swear was satan. One verse talking about near future, another talking about far future. Once you see that, you can’t unsee it. It makes you begin to read prophecy differently, wherein you see what doesn’t fit with what you thought you were reading about.

My very first confusion (of many!) came in that it seemed to say God always removes the righteous before His wrath but other verses seemed to say He removes the wicked from out of among the righteous. Then I saw the two reapings in revelation and it was cleared up some for me. (Then there’s that pesky verse about how He will destroy the righteous along with the wicked, don’t even wanna go there right now!)

Now, I just always see verses that don’t seem to fit. They stand out so starkly I can’t miss them. And I don’t have the tendency in me to try to think of how I can get it to fit. I just see that it doesn’t, so I look for where it DOES fit. And it doesn’t bother me so much as it does some that others can’t see what I see. It doesn’t make me angry, it doesn’t make me call them stupid, it doesn’t increase my blood pressure or make me scream in all caps. I just go by what I can see and…I don’t know, it just doesn’t bother me. I just walk by the light I DO have and that’s all any of us can do.

In all doctrines of men and systematic eschatologies, I always see what DOESNT fit their framework. I just see it.

So where are these Scriptures that teach that "God always removes the righteous before His wrath but other verses seemed to say He removes the wicked from out of among the righteous. Then I saw the two reapings in revelation and it was cleared up some for me. (Then there’s that pesky verse about how He will destroy the righteous along with the wicked, don’t even wanna go there right now!)"?
 

WPM

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This is salvation.

The promise made to Israel has nothing to do with salvation. Anyone who says it does would be saying Every person born of Abraham through his grandson jacob is saved.

This is what they jews thought.. This is where they got it wrong. God promised them land, and peace in that land. Because he had a plan for them

They misinterpreted that promise. As many are doing today by trying to replace israel with the church.

Non of the verses you give shows God is done wiht Israel. If (actually WHEN) they repent. God says he will remember his covenant with Abraham Isaac and Jacob, He will remember th eland (lev 26) God says in Ezekiel 37 that when they repent, He will take these two nations, which were scattered for their sins against him, And bring them back into the land, He will make them one nation again, And they will have one king, which they have not has since they divided itself between the northern and southern kingdom.

Ezek 37: 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Replacement theology is false

This is a strawman argument because it intentionally misrepresents the argument of your opponents in order to make it easier to discredit it. It involves a picture being presented that doesn’t accurately reflect the beliefs of the one you are debating. By exaggerating, distorting, or fabricating someone’s position, it makes it much easier to present your own position as plausible and logical. But this type of underhand tactic only serves to prevent open, honest, profitable, rational and objective discussion.

The teaching of the Church for most of its history has rejected the idea that there is any theologically distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Christ during the new covenant era. They believe there has only ever been one spiritual people from the start. These believers do not claim to hold to “Replacement Theology,” but rather ‘Remnant Theology’ meaning there is a continuity between God’s people in the Old and New Testament. Other terms describe the same position like ‘Continuity Theology’, ‘Inclusion Theology’ and ‘Expansion Theology’. Some use comparable expressions like ‘Addition Theology’ or ‘Fulfilment Theology’. Another lesser-used expression is ‘Messianic Fulfillment Theology’. Regardless of which one of these phrases is preferred, its advocates believe that the New Testament Church (assembly) is not a replacement of Israel, neither is it a new Israel, but it is an extension and continuation of true faithful Israel. This is supported by the fact that the inception of the new covenant didn’t mark the end of the Abrahamic lineage of faith but rather the enlargement of the same.
 
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WPM

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Is 65: No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

We have Children being born
We have death
We have sinners being cursed.

I have covered this many times on this thread and Premils have carefully sidestepped the actual evidence. 1st: sinners in the lake of fire are cursed for all eternity. That should not be a difficult truth to grasp. 2nd: as for death on the new earth. You misunderstand the Hebrew text. I will keep repeating until Premils address this.

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר
Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after


לֹא־
lō-
Not

יִֽהְיֶ֨ה
yih-yeh
Be

מִשָּׁ֜ם
miš-šām
Hence

ע֗וֹד
‘ō-wḏ,
More

ע֤וּל
‘ūl
an infant

יָמִים֙
yā-mîm
[of] days

וְזָקֵ֔ן
wə-zā-qên,
an old man

אֲשֶׁ֥ר
’ă-šer
After

What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת
Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die


לֹֽא־
lō-
Not

יְמַלֵּ֖א
yə-mal-lê
Fulfill

אֶת־
’eṯ-
Your

יָמָ֑יו
yā-māw;
Days

כִּ֣י

Inasmuch

הַנַּ֗עַר
han-na-‘ar,
a child

בֶּן־
ben-
Old

מֵאָ֤ה
mê-’āh
Hundred

שָׁנָה֙
šā-nāh
Years

יָמ֔וּת
yā-mūṯ,
Die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing, only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more aging, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (לֹֽא־ or Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (לֹֽא־ or Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

This is Old Testament verbiage that describes eternity to the Old Testament listener. It is telling us: no one is going to age! This relates to the new heaven and new earth not some supposed future millennium – that will never happen.
 

Phoneman777

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I totally disagree with your conclusions. Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is now and there is then – there is no in-between. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there is no intervening time-period or temporal age in between “this age” and “the age to come.” It is within the bounds of this juxtapose alone that we understand the whole eschatological arrangement, with its two unique diverse worlds. Kim Riddlebarger explains: “the two-age model is very simple in its structure and is based on texts that can only be described as clear and straightforward” (A Present or Future Millennium?).

Let us see what the Bible attributes to the oft-mentioned time-period “this age” [Gr. aion]. Galatians 1:4 tells us that Christ gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world [Gr. aion or age], according to the will of God and our Father.”

According to this passage, what is “this age” particularly known for? What sets it apart from the age to come?

It is “evil”! The Greek word for evil is poneros! The meaning of this word is: “hurtful in effect or influence.” The word indicates ‘degeneracy from original virtue’. We do not need to look too far to realize that it is talking about our current age. In fact, evil has been with us since the fall, and will be with us to the second coming. This gives us immediate insight into the starting and finishing point of “this age.”

This age is constantly depicted throughout Scripture as being plagued by the existence of sin, decay and death. It is never portrayed as a pleasant, pristine or lasting state. In fact, Galatians 1:4 describes this age as “this present evil age;” one that Christ came to “deliver” us from through His death. Evil marks the period of time in-between the fall and the second coming of Christ. We can therefore confidently conclude that “this age” that we are looking at is still with us.

Paul the apostle tells us in Ephesians 5:16 that we should be: “redeeming the time, because the days are evil.”

This is a present ongoing reality on planet earth.

The age to come has completely different, unique and elevated qualities that this age does not possess. It is characterized by incorruption, eternal life and perfection. It is a glorified existence that forbid any form of sin, mortality and corruption. Repeated Scripture tells us that the curse upon man will only last until Christ returns. It also tells us that the current heavens and earth will one day be replaced by a new regenerated heavens and earth. That is because the current arrangement has been corrupted by sin. As a consequence, our universe is finite and deteriorating, and its history will one day come to an end. All chronology currently sits in between creation and the consummation of all things. The whole of Scripture (Old Testament and New Testament) looks forward to the glorious day of restoration and perfection with expectancy. All creation waits with eager anticipation for that glorious moment when depravity and decay will finally be banished from creation forever.

Luke 20:27-33 records: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Christ replies in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Luke adds more meat on the bones compared to what Matthew shares in his parallel account. Luke shows Christ rebuking the cunningness of the Sadducees and their attempt to deny a future physical resurrection at His return. Luke 20:27-36 clearly demonstrates that the defining moment of change between this age and the age to come is the time of the Lord’s return and the physical resurrection, not AD70 as Preterists claim. It is nowhere shown to be the change from the old covenant to the new covenant, as they argue.

It is impossible to miss the constant scriptural comparison between “this world” and “that world” or “this age” and “that age.” There is no additional age recognized. In text reinforces that repeated biblical truth. Those who live in this current evil age are described here as “the children of this world/age” but those who are depicted as being “worthy to obtain that age” to come are described exclusively as “the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” and are said to be “equal unto the angels.” There is no other way of reading this.

One must be appropriately qualified in order inherit the new world to come. They must be glorified on the day of redemption. Those that are worthy to obtain that age are not mortals and not sinners; they are rather glorified saints – who incidentally never marry or die.

The contrast here moves from: ‘marriage’ to ‘no marriage’, ‘death’ to ‘no death’. Marriage disappears! Death disappears! The turning point is the glorious coming of Christ and the resurrection that accompanies it.

Jesus outlines in clear tones the incorruptibility and the glory of the future state. This is not the case with the Premillennial and Preterist age to come; marriage, divorce, funerals and mourning continue unabated. This passage forbids both the Premillennial and Preterist theories.
Like I said, you as well as most Jesuit Futurists and Jesuit Preterists ignore the third coming age of total Earthly desolation, dark, empty, silent. Trust me, when Jesus comes in glory, there won't be anything going on down here. This desolation is clearly spoken of in Scripture.
 

WPM

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Like I said, you as well as most Jesuit Futurists and Jesuit Preterists ignore the third coming age of total Earthly desolation, dark, empty, silent. Trust me, when Jesus comes in glory, there won't be anything going on down here.

You totally avoided the evidence presented. You sidestepped the Scriptures that forbid your claims. Please address, if you can.

Where does the OT prophets, Christ or the NT writers teach a 3-age format (“this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come”)? It seems like you are inventing 1 extra age on top of the NT framework.
 
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