22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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CadyandZoe

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Finally, you have realized that you disagree with "both" Romans 2 and my interpretation of Romans 2. At least i respect your honesty.
Nice try, but no cigar. I was saying that a True Jew is both physically circumcised and circumcised of heart.

Romans 2:26 is a hypothetical. It is impossible for an uncircumcised man to keep the law and remain uncircumcised since circumcision is a statutory requirement.
 

CadyandZoe

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LOL. You are unbelievable. Embrace the text, even if it exposes everything you have been taught. Let me help your obvious reading difficulty:

Ephesians 2:12-13 declares, ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

Paul says they were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, which was true because they were citizens of Ephesus. Becoming a follower of Jesus didn't change their legal status, just as believing husbands and wives don't change their marriage status after conversion.
 

WPM

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You need to read more carefully, That's all I can say. You are jumping to conclusions. Let's look at that again,

What you hear:
"You were alienated from the citizenship of Israel but now you are citizens of Israel.

What Paul actually says:
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Do you see it? These words relate to location, not spiritual status. The reason why the Ephesians were separated from Christ and unfamiliar with the covenants of promise is because they lived in a far off land. It wasn't until Paul travelled to Ephesus and after believing the gospel about the blood of Christ were the Ephesians brought near. preached the gospel to them that they were brought near. He tells you that "He [the Lord through is apostles] came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near . . ." The Ephesians were physically distant, which is why they were unaware of the gospel message until they were "brought near" by belief in the Gospel. Paul is talking about their former condition, i.e. separated by great distance, as compared to their current condition when distance doesn't matter.

In all of that explanation, Paul never suggests that the new "spiritual" polis is called "spiritual Israel." He doesn't make the point you want him to make.

What are you talking about? The cross had absolutely no effect on the Gentiles coming to some geographical "location" on this earth, and "not spiritual status." That is absolutely ridiculous. Where did you get that from? I never heard anything so silly. You are definitely on the ropes bro. It is time to stop fighting the inspired Book and embrace the truth. Admit, your teachers have taught you wrong. They have laden you with a large deposit of burdensome, erroneous and preposterous teaching.

It is not difficult to catch the message here.

In our main passage in Ephesians 2, and speaking about the old dispensation, believing Israel is described here as those that “were nigh (eggus).” The darkened Gentiles are depicted as those that were “afar off. However, through, and since, the cross those that are saved (both Jew and Gentile) are classed as “nigh (eggus)” whereas those that are strangers to grace are recognized as “afar off.”

So, what applied to the elect of God in the past (namely imitate union and communion) must (if we are consistent) similarly be related to believers today under this new arrangement, as the phraseology is exactly the same. This all comes through the cross.

Bible students can speculate or debate all they want about the full meaning of what “afar off” and “made nigh” really entails here, but the dispute is truly non-existent. When you recognize that “the blood of Christ” is the remedy for the “afar off” condition and that the “far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ” we can confidently assume that we are looking at pre and post conversion conditions. The phrase to be “made nigh by the blood of Christ” in the case of the new relationship between the Gentile believer and “Christ” is to be understood in the most intimate spiritual sense possible.

The blood of Christ doesn’t merely draw believers near (or close) to “Christ” in an external or detached sense, but brings them nigh into Christ in an intimate spiritual union upon salvation. They become one with Christ upon conversion in a mystical union. Paul reinforces this fact by showing that drawing nigh results in us becoming members of the body of Christ and components of the temple of God. To be nigh to God clearly denotes salvation here. This is seen throughout Scripture.

We Gentiles that were once hopelessly “without Christ” (or separated from Christ), are now graciously found “in Christ Jesus” through the cross (Ephesians 2:13). We were “aliens” or estranged “from the citizenship of Israel” (Ephesians 2:12) but now are “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” (Ephesians 2:19). We were “strangers from the covenants of the promise” (Ephesians 2:12), but are now “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel” (Ephesians 3:6). We were blind “having no hope,” but now we belong to “one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope” (Ephesians 4:4). Plainly, we enjoy the same spiritual hope and are made subject unto the same “covenants of promise” as our Old Testament counterparts. For “in Christ” we have become fellow citizens of the Israel of God. We used to be “without God in the world” (or godless in the world) but now no longer. This privileged transformation having been secured for us “by the blood of Christ.”

It is only through the blood of Christ that men (Jew or Gentile, of either era) can enter into union with God and partake in all the spiritual blessings that are outlined in Ephesians 2. This shows us that the New Testament Gentiles are reconciled unto God on the same basis as the Old Testament Israelite – by putting their personal faith in the redeeming blood of Christ. Outside of that there is no salvation, no hope, and no appropriation of the promises and blessings of God.
 
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WPM

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Romans 2:26 is a hypothetical. It is impossible for an uncircumcised man to keep the law and remain uncircumcised since circumcision is a statutory requirement.

Exactly! It is spiritual. We are the spiritual "uncircumcision."
 

covenantee

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Okay, but I was voicing the Jewish objection to Paul's Gospel that his contemporaries were hearing. I wasn't suggesting that I believed it myself.
That malteaching is in fact pervasive within dispensationalism today.

I'm pleased to see that you repudiate it.
 
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WPM

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Paul says they were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, which was true because they were citizens of Ephesus. Becoming a follower of Jesus didn't change their legal status, just as believing husbands and wives don't change their marriage status after conversion.

Who said it did? The blood of Jesus didn't change their ethnic status, it changed their spiritual state. Stop being so stubborn. Stop living in denial. They were aliens from "the commonwealth of Israel" but have now become "fellowcitizens."
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Paul says they were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, which was true because they were citizens of Ephesus. Becoming a follower of Jesus didn't change their legal status, just as believing husbands and wives don't change their marriage status after conversion.
So, what do you think Paul meant when he said this:

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Was he not saying here that even though they (Gentile believers) formerly were aliens (not citizens) from the commonwealth of Israel, they are now fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel? I believe he clearly was. So, what nation did they become citizens of, the earthly nation of Israel or the spiritual nation of Israel?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Nice try, but no cigar. I was saying that a True Jew is both physically circumcised and circumcised of heart.

Romans 2:26 is a hypothetical. It is impossible for an uncircumcised man to keep the law and remain uncircumcised since circumcision is a statutory requirement.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.Ro

Can you show me here where Paul indicated that being a true Jew required being physically circumcised? I can see where he said just the opposite of that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You need to read more carefully, That's all I can say. You are jumping to conclusions. Let's look at that again,

What you hear:
"You were alienated from the citizenship of Israel but now you are citizens of Israel.

What Paul actually says:
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Do you see it? These words relate to location, not spiritual status. The reason why the Ephesians were separated from Christ and unfamiliar with the covenants of promise is because they lived in a far off land. It wasn't until Paul travelled to Ephesus and after believing the gospel about the blood of Christ were the Ephesians brought near.
Were they brought near to the location of the nation of Israel? No. So, you're not making any sense. What were they brought near to? Think about it. It wasn't the earthly nation of Israel that they were brought near to.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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In all of that explanation, Paul never suggests that the new "spiritual" polis is called "spiritual Israel." He doesn't make the point you want him to make.
Can you tell me how you interpret this passage?

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
 

CadyandZoe

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Who said it did? The blood of Jesus didn't change their ethnic status, it changed their spiritual state. Stop being so stubborn. Stop living in denial. They were aliens from "the commonwealth of Israel" but have now become "fellowcitizens."
Yes, it changed their spiritual state. But the commonwealth of Israel is not a spiritual state. It's a place in the Middle East.
 

CadyandZoe

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So, what do you think Paul meant when he said this:

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Was he not saying here that even though they (Gentile believers) formerly were aliens (not citizens) from the commonwealth of Israel, they are now fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel? I believe he clearly was. So, what nation did they become citizens of, the earthly nation of Israel or the spiritual nation of Israel?
I don't think Paul was saying that. No. Because he talks about how Jesus broke down the wall of separation, which didn't literally take place.

Consider this, there are two ways that two people can become fellow-citizens, 1) the first person joins the people of the second person, Ruth for example. or 2) both people join a new people group, which is God is forming. I believe Paul is saying that "those who were far and those who were near became fellow-citizens by joining a new people.
 
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WPM

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Yes, it changed their spiritual state. But the commonwealth of Israel is not a spiritual state. It's a place in the Middle East.

Oh. So we Gentiles have joined the citizenship of ethnic Israel?

Where do we apply for the passports?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I don't think Paul was saying that. No. Because he talks about how Jesus broke down the wall of separation, which didn't literally take place.

Consider this, there are two ways that two people can become fellow-citizens, 1) the first person joins the people of the second person, Ruth for example. or 2) both people join a new people group, which is God is forming. I believe Paul is saying that "those who were far and those who were near became fellow-citizens by joining a new people.
He had previously pointed out that the Gentiles were aliens and not citizens of "the commonwealth of Israel" but were brought near by the blood of Christ and then he later said they are no longer aliens and were fellow citizens. Why wouldn't you make the connection that he was saying they were no longer aliens from the common wealth of Israel but are now fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Oh. So we Gentiles have joined the citizenship of ethnic Israel?

Where do we apply for the passports?
LOL. I don't understand why we'd have to go there when it says we've already been brought near by the blood of Christ. :D

Paul indicated that Gentiles were not citizens of "the commonwealth of Israel", but then were "brought near" by the blood of Christ. I know that all of us Gentiles have been brought near by the blood of Christ, but I don't live anywhere near the earthly nation of Israel. So, as you know but others are not realizing, there's no way that the earthly nation of Israel is what Paul was referring to there. He later said we are fellow citizens. Well, I don't know about you, but I'm not a citizen of the earthly nation of Israel even though I know I'm one of the "fellow citizens" that he talked about. I am a fellow citizen of spiritual Israel, though, so that has to be what he was talking about.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Yes, it changed their spiritual state. But the commonwealth of Israel is not a spiritual state. It's a place in the Middle East.
So, do you live near there? Paul said that we have been brought near to the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
 
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WPM

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So, do you live near there? Paul said that we have been brought near to the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

He has dug himself a hole and cannot get out of it. It is frankly ridiculous to suggest this.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Yeah well, I figured there were already enough people in here repeating the same things over and over again for 70 pages.
It seems like you don't really want to address what "it" is referring to in Isaiah 65:20 when it says "Never again will there be in IT an infant who lives but a few days". If "it" is not referring to Jerusalem and the new heavens and the new earth from the previous few verses then what else is "it" referring to?

Isaiah 65:19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. 20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

This says "the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in IT no more" and "never again will there be in IT an infant who lives but a few days". Why is "it" not the same in both verses?
 
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