23 minutes in hell
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And yet.... We read...
(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.
(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."
Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."
Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."
Yet the New Testament teaches...
(1Ti 6:16) who alone possesses immortality (God) and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
So who is in Heaven?
(Joh 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
John tells us (Rev 20:5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Joh 11:24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
I read the scriptures as saying man stays dead until the resurrection?
The Dialogue with Trypho is a second-century Christian apologetic text, documenting the attempts by theologian Justin Martyr to show that Christianity is the new law for all men, and to prove from Scripture that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. The Dialogue utilizes the literary device of an intellectual conversation between Justin and Trypho, a Jew. The concluding section propounds that the Christians are the true people of God.
The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80):
"They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh. . . As in the case of a yoke of oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone; so neither can soul or body alone effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion . . ." [i.e. the soul can have no separate existence]. For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man? No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No; but it is called the body of man. If then neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . . Then what thanks are due to Him, and what manifestation of His power and goodness is it, if He purposed to save what is by nature saved. . . . but no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. . . . How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"
Justin is refuting the arguments of Gnosticism which denied the resurrection of the flesh. Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tactic by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.
Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho:
Trypho : "Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt? And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the Patriarchs...?"
Justin: "I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men’s teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The Day of the Lord,’ is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place."
That difference may be witnessed in contemporary preaching at funerals which, though claiming the Bible as its source, reflects a pagan Platonism which both the New Testament and the early Church Fathers rejected.
Here are two verses that people use to support life after death…
2 Corinthians 5:8 - "absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord"
and, Philippians 1:23 - "I long to depart this life and be with Christ."
People have taken these two verses to mean that when you die you are automatically taken to heaven to be with Christ. The question that we must ask ourselves is what does Paul mean when he says, "with Christ?" When does Paul expect to be with Christ? Is it immediately after death, or is it during the resurrection of the dead at the Second Coming of Christ? This is an easy question to answer if you know where to look, but first let’s takes a look at what a few sources say about this verse.
The New American Bible states the following on 2 Corinthians chapter 5:
"Unlike the Greeks (philosophers), who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it."
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible states the following on 2 Corinthians 5:8:
"Paul’s pithy statement, to be "absent from the body and to be present with the Lord," a statement pregnant with hope for all Christians, is understood to reflect an immediacy of sequence in the consciousness of the individual only. When a Christian closes his eyes in death, the next moment, as far as he is concerned, he will be with the Lord, though countless millennia may have intervened. Thus the basic structure of the New Testament, which is death followed by resurrection is preserved; at the sane time the postponement of the resurrection until the parousia, is maintained."
In other words, there is no sensation of time when you are dead. When you die, the next thing that you will experience is being with the Lord Jesus Christ on the day of his return, even though thousands of years have passed by.
Thus.... Ghost are an impossibility... Sorry Horror movie/Ghost buster movie fans...
Paul
RR144
Well-Known Member
" For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5
Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell. Too bad they take their loved ones with them!
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Sorry, but the wages of sin is Death.... not eternal torment! That's Greek philosophy borrowed by the Roman Church to make you pay cash to get out of Hell! Look at History!
Do you believe Paul...
1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Gen 2:16 Then the LORD God commanded the man, "You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die."
YET.... The actual Hebrew reading is
CLV Bible Gen 2:16 And instructing is Yahweh Elohim the human, saying, "From every tree of the garden, you are to eat, yea, eat.
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
Net Bible 54 tn Heb "dying you will die." The imperfect verb form here has the nuance of the specific future because it is introduced with the temporal clause, "when you eat...you will die." That certainty is underscored with the infinitive absolute, "you will surely die."
sn The Hebrew text ("dying you will die"") does not refer to two aspects of death ("dying spiritually, you will then die physically"). The construction simply emphasizes the certainty of death, however it is defined. Death is essentially separation. To die physically means separation from the land of the living, but not extinction. To die spiritually means to be separated from God. Both occur with sin, although the physical alienation is more gradual than instant, and the spiritual is immediate, although the effects of it continue the separation.
There is no eternal torment in God's warning to Adam in Genesis! Make note too... God said dying you will die... thus Adam was not made an eternal being! Adam's life from the beginning always depended upon the spirit of God for life!!! The Net bible has it wrong...They fail to see that physical death and spiritual death is the same!
Let us see in scripture...
(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.
(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Other support verses are…
(Gen 2:7) The Spirit is the breath of life
(Job 7:21) "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."
(Psa 104:29) You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.
Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.
Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier’s Encyclopedia (GE)).
This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."
Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.
"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).
Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).
In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away they die.
Examples:
Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."
Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."
Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."
This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:
"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.
If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:
"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."
Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:
"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."
Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.
If we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.
So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches…
(Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said… Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul as your church teaches. An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her…
John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.
Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades!
Many Churches teach that man has an immortal subsistence. The scriptures reveal a different reality.
(1Co 15:53-55). For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
And the telling verse is…
(1Ti 6:16) who alone possesses immortality (God) and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
Death is the penalty for sin! God is not going to raise the already dead from a penalty they already paid and then burn them for eterinty! How sad the church has become...
Paul
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Satan LOVES it when people don't believe Jesus!
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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