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2300 Evening-mornings of Daniel 8

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by samy, Apr 27, 2008.

  1. samy

    samy New Member

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    Daniel 8:14 2300 evening-mornings Daniel 8:13-14, 2613 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?”14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”26 “And the vision of the evenings and morningsWhich has been told is true;But keep the vision secret,For it pertains to many days in the future.” NASB DiscussionDaniel is told that the career of the little horn will be for 2300 evening-mornings as he opposes and dominates the people of the Commander of the host. To understand this measure of time we go first to the further explanation of the angel in Daniel 8:26. In the matter of all the other things Daniel saw, the angel had to explain what they meant. Here he says, the 2300 evening-mornings are true. In other words "What you saw is what it is." No further explanation needed. But it is here, right at this point that most mistakes are made. Readers bring their baggage and prejudices to the passsage that keep them from accepting the simple meaning. We all know what an evening is, we all know what a morning is, we all know what a day is. But because there are those who do not understand how to reconcile the plain sense of the creation account and the findings of science, the Genesis language stating a litereal six-day creation is redefined to mean something else. Listen, God knew we were going to have a problem here, that's why He used the evening and morning language. If you wanted to communicate to someone the word "day," meaning a day of the week rather than a long period of time, "an evening and a morning one day," is as good as it gets! And then when Gabriel is finishing his explanation of the 2300 evening and mornings, he says they "pertain to many days" (v. 26). Unfortunately many Bibles add the words "in the future" at the end of verse 26, but that is not in the text. Gabriel is simply anticipating the confusion and stating the truth. But here we are 2500 years later calling it everything but what he said! Next, we must ask, "Why is God communicating in Daniel 8 the passage of time in this Genesis One measure of time?" This conjoining of evening-morning is used only here and in Genesis One. We review Genesis One and simply note that as God did His work of creation, He recorded two events, an evening and a morning, and that would be one day. After the sixth day He rested on the seventh, but there is no mention of an evening and a morning on that seventh day. It simply says He rested. The evening-morning phrase is used exclusively for a work day, not the seventh day, or Sabbath. Next we notice that the little horn tampers with time keeping, as recorded in Dan 7:25, "make alterations in times and in laws," and in like manner takes the continual away from Him [the Commander of the Host], Dan 8:11, 12, 13; 11:31; 12:11. (Most English Bibles say "daily sacrifice" to their discredit. But there is only one common word here which means "regular," "continual," "repetitive," denoting some continuous regular act. There is no word for "sacrifice" here.) We should have also noted or will note that Daniel's time sensitive words concerning the other end-time passages are in terms of 3 1/2 years, 3 1/2 units of time, or week of years divided in half (7:25; 9:27; 12:7, 11, 12). A Simple AnswerThe 2300 events of evening-morning are 1150 work days (here we use Genesis as our formula, "an evening and a morning were one day"). But something else is needed. This obvious end-time passage that should add up to 3 1/2 years does not, if we count it as it appears. God knows that by using this Genesis work day, evening and morning, his people will understand that this period should include something else that is not overtly stated, and that the something is the Sabbath to be complete. It is simply a fact that every six days (or 12 events of evenings-mornings) God's people observe the Sabbath (Ex 20:8). So we take 1150 work days, adding a Sabbath after every six days to arrive at the total passage of time for the career of the little horn. Thus we must add 191 missing Sabbaths to the 1150 work days. (That is 2300 divided by 2=1150. 1150 divided by 6 work days reveals 191 missing Sabbaths, then adding 191 Sabbaths to the 1150 work days=1341 or 3 1/2 years and the extra time revealed in Daniel 12:12.) This and the notification that he takes the continual worship away from Him reveals that the end-time ruler will outlaw the Sabbath and change the calendar.8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, abeloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and ba thousand years as one day. In anticipation of the person who will answer with 2 Peter 3:8, please simply note, since you are not God, to you one day is one day!
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    In anticipation of the person who will answer with 2 Peter 3:8, please simply note, since you are not God, to you one day is one day!{quote} What is this supposed to mean. This is not reasoning.. It is God speaking Not man........ This is prophecy from Gods mouth !!!!!!!!!! Have you called God wrong? assumed facts not in evidence all to make it fit your ideas of time ?this is not what Jews of that day believed nor how they counted facts Daniel would have understood this. You base this on saying theres missing time it doesnt add up and then seems you put your own spin on it to make it work out your way.Sounds like Fancy footwork is what this is. Numbers were very important to God and very exact. Figures of speech, idioms,acrostics,numbers are very important in proper understanding of Gods Word They taught these milleniums (1000years) as days so Adam was born about 6 Days (6000 years) ago the millenium begins the 7th day (7000th year)Here is what was taught in days of old::........................................Jewish figure of SpeechA common saying among the Jews, founded on the same passage, (Mynv Pla hb "qh) (lv wmwy) , "the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years" this phrase should be thought to refer, as it is by some, to the day of judgment, and be expressive of the duration of that: it is certain that the Jews interpreted days of millenniums, and reckoned millenniums by days, and used this phrase in confirmation of it. Thus they say (F1), ``in the time to come, which is in the last days, on the sixth day, which is the sixth millennium, when the Messiah comes, for the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.'' And a little after, ``"the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man". This is in the time of the Messiah which is in the sixth day.'' And elsewhere (F2,) ``the sixth degree is called the sixth day, the day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years. And in that day the King Messiah shall come, and it shall be called the feast of gathering, for the holy blessed God will gather in it the captivity of his people.'' So they call the sabbath, or seventh day, the seventh millennium, and interpret( F3) ``"the song for the sabbath day", (Psalms 92:1) title, for the seventh millennium, for one day of the holy blessed God is a thousand years.'' To which agrees the tradition of Elias, which runs thus (F4) ``it is the tradition of the house of Elias, that the world shall be six thousand years, two thousand years void (of the law), two thousand years the law, and two thousand years the days of the Messiah;'' for they suppose that the six days of the creation were expressive of the six thousand years in which the world will stand; and that the seventh day prefigures the last millennium, in which will be the day of judgment, and the world to come; for ``the six days of the creation (they say ) is a sign or intimation of these things: on the sixth day man was created; and on the seventh his work was finished; so the kings of the nations of the world (continue) five millenniums, answering to the five days, in which were created the fowls, and the creeping things of the waters, and other things; and the enjoyment of their kingdom is a little in the sixth, answerable to the creation of the beasts, and living creatures created at this time in the beginning of it; and the kingdom of the house of David is in the sixth millennium,answerable to the creation of man, who knew his Creator, and ruled over them all; and in the end of that millennium will be the day of judgment, answerable to man, who was judged in the end of it; and the seventh is the sabbath, and it is the beginning of the world to come.''F26 Bereshit Rabba, sect. 8. fol. 7. 3. Vajikra Rabba, sect. 19. fol. 160. 2. Bemidbar Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 216. 1. Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 20. 1. Zohar in Exod. fol. 60. 1. Tzeror Hammor, fol. 157. 1. & Nishmet Chayim Orat. 1. c. 5. fol. 12. 1. .....................................This is what was meant by this figure of speech 1 day=1000years a day to GodYou can deny this all you like but this was a figure of speech commonly used by Jews of the dayit is what Peter means and it was what was taught. this isnt my opinon it is the facts
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Daniel 8:13 "Then I heard one Saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"This statement is in two parts, and the answer is found in the next verse.Daniel 8:14 "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."In Joshua 23:13, Joshua sought the Lord to know how long it would be until the children of Israel would possess the land that God promised to Abraham for his children. When we read verses nine through sixteen, we see that God gave him the instruction to stay in His word, and obey His instructions. This cleansing of the sanctuary, is the time of the allotment of inheritance to all the tribes of Israel, and it will come at the return of our Lord Jesus Christ at the seventh trumpet.Daniel 8:15 "And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man."Daniel could not understand this. Though it looked like a man, it was an angel, a spiritual being. God and the angels have the same form we have, for we are all created in the image of God.Daniel 8:16 "And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.""Gabriel" in the Hebrew means "man of God". So we see that this great angel, or man of God, is going to help Daniel understand his vision.Daniel 8:17 "So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision."This verse should turn on the light of understanding to those who hold fast that this vision was directed to some ancient time in history. Though the vision is similar to an ancient event; the angel Gabriel lets Daniel know that the vision is prophecy for the "time of the end". That time is the time that we are living in today, and it is the time of the end of this earth age.There are only three persons that were ever called the "son of man", they were Jesus, Ezekiel, and Daniel.Daniel 8:18 "Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright."Daniel 8:19 "And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be."
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    And I would like to know where you come up with the idea that 1341 years =3 1/2 years it most certainly does not and its not in scripture this is Sabbath moons months(lunar) 1260 days = 3 1/2 years same as 42 months So again seems you are using your formula rather than Gods maybe thats why you have missing time ,This can be born out as far back as Gen. 150 days = 5 months (30days) 5 x 30= 150 days a 30 day lunar month not solor time this is the same 5 months in Rev. 9
     
  5. samy

    samy New Member

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    Kriss, it flatters me when you misquote scripture, and also put words in my mouth. Dan 8:14, does not say 2300 days, it says 2300 evenings mornings.... And I did not say 1341 simply equaled 3 1/2 years, (ckeck my post if you will), I wrote 3 1/2 years AND the extra time revealed in Daniel 12:22.
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    which scripture did I misquote? And where might I find Dan. 12:22and what does this say (quote) adding 191 Sabbaths to the 1150 work days=1341 or 3 1/2 years (quote) is this not your quote??you already added your missing 191 sabbath so what other missing time are you adding??????????? and where in scripture is this backed up? where is it are you told this to use this formula??????? where is your rossetta stone??? or do you just throw what ever enters your mind for each chapter and ignore what God has laid out for you??You seem to have no scripture to back up what you say so you just mock me without one iota of proof as to what you say. It does not matter what you or I think Its what Gods says and Daniel and Peter believed. So you are saying that what the facts lie and do matter??
     
  7. Nyoka

    Nyoka New Member

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    Samy you state that there is no word for 'sacrifice' in Daniel 8:11-13. According to the Strong's concordance the word 'daily' in these verses translates to: 8548 tamiyd taw-meed' from an unused root meaning to stretch; properly, continuance (as indefinite extension); but used only (attributively as adjective) constant (or adverbially, constantly); ellipt. the regular (daily) sacrifice:--alway(-s), continual (employment, -ly), daily, ((n-))ever(-more), perpetual.As you can clearly see the word daily means 'sacrifice.'
     
  8. samy

    samy New Member

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    As you will discover in most Bibles the word is tamid (continual) which implies some repetitive act such as the daily sacrificie, or sabbath observance. The word itself is simply not the word for sacrifice. You may wish to consullt a Hebrew lexicon such as Brown, Driver and Briggs. Thank you for your work in Strongs. samy
     
  9. Nyoka

    Nyoka New Member

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    (samy;47232)
    As you will discover in most Bibles the word is tamid (continual) which implies some repetitive act such as the daily sacrificie, or sabbath observance. The word itself is simply not the word for sacrifice. You may wish to consullt a Hebrew lexicon such as Brown, Driver and Briggs. Thank you for your work in Strongs. samy
    From all I have seen online with the different lexicons Strong's just gives a more detailed interpretation of this word than the others do. As you seem to think this is wrong could you please inform me what is the word for sacrifice? I have consulted Brown's lexicon and can't seem to find another word.
     
  10. samy

    samy New Member

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    As the angel explains the prophecy of the 2300 evening mornings he says,26 “And the vision of the evenings and morningsWhich has been told is true; But keep the vision secret,For it pertains to many days in the future.”The words “in the future’ do not occur in the Hebrew text. They are a translator’s guess at meaning.God is the clearest of all communicators. He speaks to us in the simplest possible terms. We call this putting the cookies on the bottom shelf. If I stopped anyone on the street and told them I was going fishing for the next evening and morning, how many would think that I was going fishing for the next year? None! For next whole day? All! Evening and Morning in conjunction in this manner occur only twice in Scripture, here in Daniel 8, and then in Genesis 1. In Genesis when it says there was evening and there was morning, then it says, one day. Let’s review:In Genesis 1:5—One evening, one morning equals one day. [These are not my words, the word of man, or a commentary, or some slick new doctrine.]In my experience as a human being I have never read any account where someone described years with the words evening morning together like that. And when I hear or read that something happened in a day, I understand that term to mean what it does when used with evening and morning, one day! People that teach something else here have to leave this page of Scripture and go somewhere else and start suggesting the fancy doctrinal footwork of some man or organization. They just cannot take what they read in the Word of God. Daniel 8:14-26 Again God communicates using evening mornings. 2300 such events. So here like Genesis, commentators cannot accept what they read so 2300 evening mornings somehow magically become years. Such commentators ignore the fact that God said an evening and a morning were one day, and that our very own language and experience confirms each new day.I have noted these things in my post for those who wish to read them,2300 evenings mornings is 1150 days (using the Genesis formula of 2:1, 1 eve and 1 morm, are 1 day.I note that all the 1150 days are work-days because the Sabbath in the Genesis account is not described as an evening and morning. I note that in order to figure the total passage of time involved in the 1150 work days, one must add in Sabbaths, because Jews always observe the Sabbath. Thus 1150 work days plus 192 necessary Sabbaths equals 1342, which is 3 ½ years PLUS the additional time factored above 3 ½ years in Daniel 12:12 . ( I end up with exactly one week too much above Daniel’s 1335.!)[For Kriss You misquoted Daniel 8:14 and said “2300 days”And there are 1278.34769573 days in 3.5 years.]samy
     
  11. Nyoka

    Nyoka New Member

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    Samy you haven't answered my question. Also the wording in Daniel implies 2300 mornings and 2300 evenings. Morning and evening are mentioned in Genisis but in a different setting. I think on this one we will have to agree to disagree. I tend to go with Kriss on this one. I am bowing out of this thread now.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I am sorry but I misquoted nothing that is the KJV and thats exactly what it says Daniel 8:14 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. days not mornings and evenings ... Days.... and the hebrew here means strickly evenings, (growing dark)The Jews used this figure of speech Just as my post above saysmaybe not using KJV is where you mess up.that is the screwiest time factor I ever heard it matchs nothing its got one week here missing time there that doesnt cut it. I will say again this supposed to be counted in luner not solar you cant just take this an that and come up with a figure 1260 days = 3 1/2 years = time,times &half time =42 months 150 days of the flood =5 months in Rev. 9 5 months = 150 days this isnt about your experience its about Gods Word and no where are you told to do this kind of math that equals nothing in scripture.you better do some more studying on this one [url="http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks4.htm]http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks4.htm[/url]http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks2.htmA week or heptade, (like a decade but containing seven years).would be 7 x 360 days = 2520 days. this number should ring bells for youA "time, times and half a time (Dan.12:7) is half a heptade or half a "week" or 3.5 years.Half a "week" would be 7/2 = 3.5 years x 360 days = 1260 daysHalf a "week" would be 3.5 x 12 = 42 months each of 30 days = 1260 days.
     
  13. samy

    samy New Member

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    Below is the word "tamid" continualI find nothing in strongs about sacrifice in the definition. There is no word for sacrifice in the pasage. תָּמִיד
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    NyokaDaniel 8:11 "Yea, he magnified himself even to the Prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifices was taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down."The sanctuary of "the prince of the host" is in Jerusalem. It has been and it will also be in the millennium, and even in eternity. When the Antichrist "magnified himself", he will take away the "daily sacrifice". The daily sacrifice is the oblation, or the offering from the people, both by day and night, to Almighty God. This is discussed in Numbers 28:3; I Chronicles 29:7. These are the burnt offerings for sin.There was only one thing that took away the need for two daily offerings, and that was the sacrifice of God's only begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. The requirement of these two burnt offerings, the daily sacrifice, ended when Jesus Christ went to the cross and shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary. This sacrifice paid the price once, and that covering is for all times. Hebrews 10 discusses this in detail, and then in verses twelve through fourteen we read;Hebrews 10:12-14; "But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool. For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."The term, "the volume of the book" is the completion of the sacrifice required through the scriptures, and Jesus Christ paid that price. We read on in verses fifteen through eighteen;Hebrews 10:15-18; "Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that He had said before, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."When those oblations were taken away, in its place we have the Holy Communion. In Luke 22:19-20 it is recorded that the command of Jesus to His disciples was to continue taking the cup in remembrance of Jesus Christ, and the blood He shed on the cross for their sins. This we are commanded to do until He comes back at the second advent .
     
  15. samy

    samy New Member

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    8548 tamiyd { taw-meed’} from an unused root meaning to stretch; TWOT - 1157a; n mAV - continually 53, continual 26, daily 7, always 6, alway 4, ever 3, perpetual 2, continual employment 1, evermore 1, never 1; 104GK - 9458 { תָּמִיד }1) continuity, perpetuity, to stretch1a) continually, continuously (as adverb)1b) continuity (subst)Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship.
     
  16. samy

    samy New Member

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    The sanctuary of the Prince of the host is not Jerusalem, it is the church, Ephesians 2:22 We are the temple of his body. 1 Cor 12:13 1 Cor 3:16-17. We are the holy people. In the end times it is a holy people who are attacked by the little horn. Dan 8:24. Before the time of Christ God made his presence known in the temple in Jerusalem. In the time of Christ, God made his presence known in a man, Jesus Christ. From the day of Pentecost on God has made his presence known in the church.
     
  17. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The sanctuary of the Prince of the host is not Jerusalem, it is the church, Ephesians 2:22 We are the temple of his body. 1 Cor 12:13 1 Cor 3:16-17. We are the holy people. In the end times it is a holy people who are attacked by the little horn. Dan 8:24. Before the time of Christ God made his presence known in the temple in Jerusalem. In the time of Christ, God made his presence known in a man, Jesus Christ. From the day of Pentecost on God has made his presence known in the church.
    BULL.Plain and simple. Samy, you've take some real liberties with the Word in the past, but this is probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard you say yet. Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    There is only one Prince. I hope no one goes along with you on this trash. I've let some other things pass, because there are different interpretations of this and that, but this is absolutely ridiculous to even suggest that Prince stands for the people. You could make an argument if you really tried for the two witnesses, but not this. Quit misleading people with this nonsense.
     
  18. samy

    samy New Member

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    The Sanctuary of the Prince.In Daniel 8:11 we read about the little horn casting down the place of the sanctuary of the Prince. Some assume here that the sanctuary of the Prince is either the Temple in Jerusalem, or Jerusalem. But the context of the prophecy, Daniel 8:17,” the time of the end,” with the angel’s explanation of verse 11 in verse 24, “and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people," leads us in a different direction.Clearly, in the time of the Old Testament prophets, Jerusalem, and in particular, the Temple in Jerusalem, was the sanctuary of the Prince.However, after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, God saw fit to build a new temple to dwell in. This temple is described throughout the New Testament. We see God's Spirit first indwelling this temple on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:1-36. The new dwelling place of God's Spirit was the people of God. Jesus had spoken of the coming of his Spirit to His people in John 14:16-17, 23, 26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:4-5. Paul makes reference to this when he corrects the conduct of the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 3:16, “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" Then in Paul's letter to the Ephesians, we read in Chapter 2, versus 19 through 22,"Now, therefore, ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but fellow citizens with the Saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone, in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord; in whom ye also are built together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."Peter also writes about the truth of the new temple of God, 1 Peter 2:4-5, “And coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, you also as living stones, are being built upon as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."Therefore, it seems clear that if anyone attacks the sanctuary of the Prince, or the place of the sanctuary of the Prince, such an attack must involve an attack on God's people, the church, the body of Christ.For those of you who wish to make a reply, please limit your criticisms to the contents rather than attacking the messenger. Thank you
     
  19. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Once again, a whole lotta writing - not sure if you're copying and pasting or what - and a whole little Scripture. Not interested.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Samy you are not seperating spirtual and literal properly your combining things all together when we need to seperate them
     
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