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3 AS 1 Trinity

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by MUSTAFAA, Mar 8, 2007.

  1. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    Trinity Relationship:1. FATHER (GOD)2. JESUS (SON)3. HOLY SPIRITIf true that all three or equal in every way and from the same substance as the church states then this should be true over the entire life of the beings or being. No matter what form the being chooses to take its substance, abilities and attributes would have to stay the same constant without change! If not then we would be able to say that we now have a “lesser” or “greater” being, not equal in knowledge or substance etc… as the original. According to what the church tells us or Gods absolute attributes omnipotent; immutable; everlasting just to name a few, would and should also be true over the life of the being or beings existence. Omnipotence meaning: an omnipotent being is one who can do anything that is logically possible and is consistent with his other attributes.Immutability meaning: That God attributes and essence cannot change; Can someone tell me where the problems or with my understanding of the trinity?What I’m asking is that if all three beings are the same then would their attributes and knowledge remain the same no matter what form they chose to inhabit. And if so would each form have knowledge of the other. For example if God chose to take human form in the person of Jesus Christ, would he Jesus have all the same knowledge and attributes as God... among other things? Example Jesus died no matter if it was for 3 days or 3 second he suffered a human death. To what extent would or could we say that God and the Holy Spirit died or suffered? And if the 2 or 1, when they split, (as in God in heaven and Jesus on earth…) the attributes and knowledge should stay constant over all 2 beings. To state it another way if we say Jesus is God and Jesus is man then it would seem correct if someone said God is man and his attributes and knowledge or and should be constant and the same, or the 2 beings would not truly be equal one would have more or less knowledge and attributes then the other.What do you think?
     
  2. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    I gave a view of who the trinity is in my earlier reply I will answer the questions you have asked here;1. Gods spirit and attirbutes entered into Christ , it was a part of God and that way God did suffer and understand all the we as fleshly humans go through.2. Christ had transfigured before his death... His body was different than ours.... His flesh body was in the grave for three days ... His spiritual body went to teach those who had gone before . We all have a spiritual body inside of us.. just as Christ did. He reentered his flesh body and raised it up. After he ascended to the Father, they sent the Holy Spirit back those who believed that Jesus was risen.#. The Holy Spirit is a piece of God that can inhabit us... it is his authority on the earth that speaks through us, teaches us and fights for us in the spiritual realm. I have experienced knowing things that I could not have known with out the Holy Spirit telling me, there were things in the Word I could not understand, but after sleeping I suddenly did. The Holy Spirit ministers to our needs in every way. It is the thing that leads us and directs us... it is the thing we call on when we do not have the attributes we need. It is His attributes available to us to use in the flesh.I am praying this will answer your questions. I am praying for the Holy Spirit to teach you the things you desire to know. God is pleased when you desire to understand Him better and know that if you ask Him he will be faithful to make sure you gain true knowledge of Him and His ways.
     
  3. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    1. Gods spirit and attributes entered into Christ , it was a part of God and that way God did suffer and understand all the we as fleshly humans go through. RE:This is exactly the thing that I don’t understand, if Jesus has the same attributes as God and one of Gods attributes is omniscient (definition below)1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge–omnisciently adverb Then how can Jesus make a statement that there are things that he does not know as in… Modern kjvMr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Basic English BibleMt 24:36 But of that day and hour no one has knowledge, not even the angels in heaven, or the Son, but the Father only. Now if like you say that through Jesus death and suffering that God was able to understand all that humans go through… then this would seem to imply that again suffering and pain was something that God had no knowledge of before he became Jesus, and this again would seem to go against his attribute of being “omniscient” knowing all things.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I believe that Christ while in his physical body was limited in his supreme knowledge as he had to overcome the weakness of the flesh as all humans do to have overcome. If he had come as “omniscient” he would not have been an overcomer, sense he never would have been tempted.In his physical body when he spoke to the disicples he did not know the day.That doesn't mean that now in the spirit he does not know.
     
  5. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    I believe that Christ while in his physical body was limited in his supreme knowledge as he had to overcome the weakness of the flesh as all humans do to have overcome. If he had come as “omniscient” he would not have been an overcomer, sense he never would have been tempted.In his physical body when he spoke to the disicples he did not know the day.That doesn't mean that now in the spirit he does not know. Re:I don’t understand how his knowledge could be “Supreme” and yet limited at the same time. I was under the impression that Jesus retains all the attributes of God when he took on human form? If he did not then we would seem to have a being that is something other then the original… I think this is one of my biggest blocks in my understanding of Jesus and God. When you say that Jesus was God in the “flesh” what does it mean if he does not keep all of the attributes of that God? How does he have a “dual nature” and not know of it… either he knows he is God and can truly do all things, and has all knowledge… or he is only under the illusion that he is God and can do all things, and has all knowledge… How can someone (Jesus) just strip parts of himself off and lay them to the side… Gods attributed to me, are what makes him worthy of worship, what makes him God! When you say that in one form he is “SUPREME”… but in the other he is not, then we seem to be talking about a changing God… not unchanging as we say he is. As to the point of Jesus overcoming temptation, how could one temp God (Jesus)… what could you offer him that he does not have? What could you entice God (Jesus) with? I think I might be jumping the gun here… The question I should ask first is, did Jesus know he was God? Did he know he and God were equal in everyway?
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I'm sure we do not understand all the mysteries of God that is why we call it faith. But to try to answer you question.I believe Jesus understood God was his father,he knew the power of God,He never claimed these powers for himself but that they came from God.He was flesh but understood God, He could see through the veil. Much the way Adam could before his fall.He is God because he was born of a a virgin.His body was flesh and subject to the laws and desires of flesh.His spirit was one with God. I think it would be helpful to have a better understanding of what the spirit is . He was tempted by Satan for 40 days.Acts 2:36 Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
     
  7. MUSTAFAA

    MUSTAFAA New Member

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    I'm sure we do not understand all the mysteries of God that is why we call it faith. But to try to answer you question.I believe Jesus understood God was his father, he knew the power of God, He never claimed these powers for himself but that they came from God.He was flesh but understood God, He could see through the veil. Much the way Adam could before his fall.He is God because he was born of a virgin.His body was flesh and subject to the laws and desires of flesh.His spirit was one with God. I think it would be helpful to have a better understanding of what the spirit is. He was tempted by Satan for 40 days. RE:I’m still not grasping what you’re trying to explain to me, if he is God (Jesus) because he was born of a virgin, then he was God from conception. If that was the case then how could his father also be God? How could his father (God) have more power then him? If he and his father (God) are one and the same then they should be equal at the very least. This is the concept that I have a problem grasping fully. How God (Jesus) can just shed his attributes and power and lay them to the side is something of a mystery to me, I must concede I don’t understand it… Mt 12:26 and if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to compare Jesus to Satan in any way, but if Jesus is claiming to be God and he does not have equal power and all the same attributes with the Father (God) then he seems to be divided against himself, how shall then his kingdom stand?
     
  8. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Check out my explanation at the other thread....
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    John seems to have the most information about the trinity starting about l John chapter 5:4 -chapter 6 there may be more but can't recall at the moment. According to Strongs concordance the word for blood can also mean "refering to the seat of life".
     
  10. Believer

    Believer New Member

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    The King James Version of the Bible, authorized in 1611, formed the strongest evidence for the Doctrine of the Trinity. But now the part, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one," has been expunged in the Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other Bibles, as it was a gloss that had encroached on the Greek text. I John 5:7-8 in the New American Standard Bibles reads as follows:"And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." Also, in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, you will find:"For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." I just don't understand why this important part has been removed, and I wonder why many ministers and preachers are not aware of this. In actuality, the Trinity is not Biblical. The word Trinity is not even in the Bible, was never taught by Jesus, and was never mentioned by him. There is no basis or proof in the Bible whatsoever for the acceptance of the Trinity. Maybe in Matthew 28:19 it says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." However, this is still not solid proof of the Trinity. If you speak of three persons sitting or eating together, does it mean they form one person? No.The formulation of the Trinity by Athanasius, an Egyptian deacon from Alexandria, was accepted by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., i.e. more than three centuries after Jesus had left. No doubt Roman paganism had influence in this doctrine as well; the triune god, the Sabbath was shifted to Sunday, and December 25th which was the birthday of their sun-god Mithra, was introduced as Jesus' birthday. In regards to Christmas and the rites and rituals that surround it, the Bible clearly predicts and forbids the decoration of Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:2-5:"Thus says the Lord: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are false. A tree from the forest is cut down, and worked with an axe by the hand of a craftsman. Men deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move. Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Be not affraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good."Of course in John 14:11 it says: "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me," implying that God and Jesus are one. Further in John 17:21 however, it says: "...that they (the disciples) may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us..."Thus it becomes clear that God and Jesus are one, but also that the disciples are one in Jesus and God. If Jesus is God because he is in God, why are the disciples then not God, as they all are like Jesus in God? Similarly, if God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost form one unit of Trinity, then with the disciples included shouldn't they form a God unit of fifteen? The bottom line is that the whole Doctrine of the Trinity simply does not make any reasonable sense.I think Jesus himself clears things up in John 14:8-9: "Philip said to him, "Lord show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" So finally, Jesus asked Philip how to show the appearance of God to the disciples, which is not possible. You should believe in God by admiring his creation: the sun, the moon, and all creations including Jesus himself who was created by God so miraculously. In John 4:24 Jesus says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth," and in John 5:37 he says, "...His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen..."Thus, how can you see a spirit then? What the people of the time saw was Jesus and not God. Also, Paul adds in his letter to Timothy, "whom no man has ever seen or can see." So what you can never see is God.We are taught that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost, and is also God. We are also taught that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. Of course, we are not allowed to say "Three gods" but "One God".In Matthew 1:18 it reads: "Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit"But then in Luke 1:26-27 it reads: "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."So in the miraculous birth of Jesus, Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. What is the Holy Ghost then? It only makes sense that the Holy Ghost is Gabriel. Thus we come to the conclusion, God is God, the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel, and Jesus is obviously a son of Mary but also a Prophet who brought the Word of God. In other words, God may have spoken through Jesus, as Jesus was a manifestation of the Word of God on earth. It is true that the Doctrine of the Trinity in not Biblical nor a teaching of Jesus, but instead a concept created by man long after the resurrection of Jesus. It is also true that many people are confused by this. My question to all believers is why make things so hard for ourselves?God BlessBeliever
     
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