5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

[mjrhealth]

For example, read psalms 139 and tell me that David isn't giving God credit for David's nature?

Actually no He doesnt, He is just awed at Gods abiltiy to know his every thought and every deed before it is done and at how God is able to reach Him no matter where he is,

God is awesome.

In all His Love

 

[Wormwood]

God forbid, if that where true, we wouild only have one bible, and it would be filled with truth, and we would have no need for forums because all who read it would have the truth and, golly gee, we wouldnt need the Holy Spirirt any more. And teh evidence is all the confusion that is rife on every christian forum every christian church that all preach a differnt gospel a different Jesus all based on "their" understanding. There was a reason why God gives all those who come to Christ the Holy Spirit. So they would have the truth because Jesus is the truth and in Him there is no lie.

in All His Love

Oh, so God cannot be at work in flawed things and flawed people? The Bible is filled with truth and the fact that you think our Bibles are flawed is evidence to me of your own confusion. You continually set yourself up above every authority and feel "your" understanding is God's understanding, and you do this under the guise of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is kindness and humility and I regularly only see a very proud and belittling attitude come from you about anyone and anything that disagrees with your understanding. I wish you would comment "all in His love" rather than just using that statement as a tag-line. Perhaps then you would not be so quick to judge other believers...specifically those who dedicate their lives to knowing God's Word and translating it so people like yourself can read it.

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

It absolutely is possible that a true son of God can fall. That's why he gives warnings. But the true dons of God heed those warnings and thus, won't fall.

You can believe that God doesn't put a nature in us, but I do actually have many instances in the bible that say otherwise. Furthermore, I have a lot of other instances where God actually intervened and thus, free will was null and void. It ceased to exist.

But yes, they are geniune warnings. And the righteous heed them. Without them the righteuos have nothing to heed to and the damned would be able to say, "we weren't told"

For example, read psalms 139 and tell me that David isn't giving God credit for David's nature?

This first statement makes no sense to me. Yes, a true son of God can fall, but a true son of God will not fall. Again, if a true son of God will not fall, why warn them about falling? This seems like a word game to me and I dont think the Bible works that way. I just think when God warns someone, the danger is real, not hypothetical and will never actually happen because God infused it in the person so that it will not.

I believe God creates our personality and our inner workings, for sure. Yet, that is VERY different from saying God created our inner workings in a manner that would cause us to make every decision we would ever make in our lives. I just do not believe God, prior to creating Adam designed everything (including Adam) in such a way as to set up all the dominoes so everyone would make specific decisions (including rape, murder, hatred, child abuse, etc. (Psalm 139 is certainly NOT teaching this)) so that everything would work out according to a preprogrammed agenda. This is not free will. It is more like a computer program that God designed to run a certain way that gives the feel of free will, but nothing more. I believe we are created in God's image. That image includes the capacity to make autonomous, free-will choices that have the capacity to do things God has not desired.

“And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.” (Jeremiah 7:31, ESV)

According to what I have read from you, everything entered God's mind prior to creating it and he created it in such a way so that these acts would happen. The Bible clearly teaches this is not how God's foreknowledge works. This verse in particular says all that needs to be said on the issue. Many of wicked acts never even crossed God's mind when he originally created humanity and many of the despicable acts we do are so foreign to his nature that they bring God incredible pain and outrage at our evil.

You said,

But yes, they are geniune warnings. And the righteous heed them. Without them the righteuos have nothing to heed to and the damned would be able to say, "we weren't told"

yet the Bible says,

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” (Romans 1:18–20, ESV)

God does not need to give humanity a written warning in Romans to be justified in condemning the faithless. If we accept your statement, then everyone who has never read the NT has an excuse. I just do not see anything in the Bible that suggests that God set all things up in a certain way by foreknowledge so that his special elect group would persevere and his word would ensure that those elect individuals would do the right thing. Rather, the Gospel is good news to all the world and God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). Yet, your philosophy about foreknowledge directly contradicts this clear passage in Scripture that says God does not want any to be condemned. How can you say God created everyone in such a way as to save and preserve a select group while creating the nature of others ensuring they would not be saved and heed his commands. This certainly makes it sound that God wants most to be lost and be condemned forever or he would have created them like he created the "elect." I find this view of God very troubling and quite unbiblical.

 

[Zachary]

Why are people so quick to be mean-spirited toward believers who have committed decades of their life to study
the Bible and its original languages? We should commend such people, not attack them as legalistic Pharisees.

How may of these were being led by the Spirit whilst they were coming to their conclusions?
Satan and his demons have a big part to play in the thinking of most everyone.
One can read the conclusion of a theologian on an important topic and just know they are wrong!
Example:
Just wait until we see the horrible results of people believing in the pre-tribulation rapture.
No one is going anywhere! ... no matter what these so-called theologians promise you!
MANY will leave the faith because of these false so-called experts.
And we dare not get into the seminary-trained theologians ... are you kidding me!
Have there been ANY of these people who were led by the Spirit of God?
Yeah, I suppose some were.

 

[Wormwood]

How may of these were being led by the Spirit whilst they were coming to their conclusions?
Satan and his demons have a big part to play in the thinking of most everyone.
One can read the conclusion of a theologian on an important topic and just know they are wrong!
Example:
Just wait until we see the horrible results of people believing in the pre-tribulation rapture.
No one is going anywhere! ... no matter what these so-called theologians promise you!
MANY will leave the faith because of these false so-called experts.
And we dare not get into the seminary-trained theologians ... are you kidding me!
Have there been ANY of these people who were led by the Spirit of God?
Yeah, I suppose some were.

Coming to their conclusions? If someone is translating English into Spanish, it is a matter of linguistic accuracy, not personal whims. How do you know these scholars do not pray as they study and research? You can't be committed to the study of the Bible and be a spiritual person of prayer? Why are you so critical of such people? How would you feel if someone went to your workplace and started belittling your work as unspiritual and questioned yoru walk with God simply because of a title you have? I am baffled at how "Christians" treat other believers and are so quick to be such mean-spirited judges toward people they have never met.

MANY have come to faith because of these "experts." You'd be fumbling through a Latin Bible if it werent for "scholars" who devoted their minds to the study of the Bible and gave their lives so others could read it in their native tongues.

Zachary, I do not know what causes you to be so hateful toward people who attend seminary. I have attended many seminaries and I can assure you that those who study and teach there are some of the most passionate, humble and God-centered people I have ever met. Most of them so passionately believe the Bible that they see fit to quit their jobs and everything they know to take on student loans and work minimum wage so they can spend 6-7 hours a day studying the Bible for years and years. During the summer and spring breaks, many will go on mission trips and give their time to serving the most destitute. Finally, many of them give their lives to teaching the Bible so others can grow and be persuaded by the truth of God's Word. What kind of Christian belittles such people with such commitment? Who are you to act as a judge over the servant of another? We are all needy beggars who rely solely on the grace of God to save us and none of us deserve anything. What have you done that puts you in such a position to belittle others, especially your brothers and sisters who have committed their lives to trying to know and teach God's Word more effectively? Do you realize that most pastors quit and go back to secular work within three years of church leadership? Mostly because people with your attitude that are supposed to be their brothers in Christ and encourage them in their teaching and leadership, but instead make them feel worthless and make their service miserable.

Remember to show mercy, Zachary, because you will be measured with the measure you use, brother.

 

[FHII]

Wormwood,

It is puzzling you aren't seeing how a warning can be part of the sakvation process in the concept of predestination, which is clearly taught in the bible. I am confident that you aren't new to this controversy, so I won't waste our time bringing up the verses that show them - I doubt I'll be showing you anything new.

Respectfully, I will say I haven't seen anything new either that convinces me that God not only knows, but predestinates certain individuals - if not all - to salvation.

One day I might write a blog on what the bible has shown me and why I stand on this. Until then, I see no reason to continue at this time.

If you had a specific question I didn't answer, please let me know as I might have missed it or took it as rhetorical.

Thanks for the conversarion.

 

[ATP]

Just wait until we see the horrible results of people believing in the pre-tribulation rapture.

Pre-trib is satan's playground.

 

[Wormwood]

It is puzzling you aren't seeing how a warning can be part of the sakvation process in the concept of predestination, which is clearly taught in the bible. I am confident that you aren't new to this controversy, so I won't waste our time bringing up the verses that show them - I doubt I'll be showing you anything new.

FHII,

Thanks, brother. Sorry if my last post came across a little prickly. I think the above critical comments made about scholars and students made me a little to defensive as a whole. I apologize.

I agree with you that predestination is a biblical concept. However, I think we are diving into issues of Molism and I think your stance is very similar to that of William Lane Craig, which, in my opinion, is just another form of Calvinism. I dont think predestination has to include God knowing all possible outcomes of his own creative acts prior to the acts themselves (How can God have foreknowledge over hypotheticals? Foreknowledge has to do with knowing actual events beforehand, not hypothetical events.). The idea that God knows every possible hypothetical outcome of his own potential acts, and therefore when he creates, he chooses the best of all possible creative acts and thus determines the future based on the foreknowledge of those acts is a philosophical view that is laden with problems. It just does not do justice to the teaching of the Bible. God has predestined the plan of salvation and the reward of the sons and daughters of God in Christ from the beginning. However, this does not mean he has predestined select individuals for heaven and others for eternal torment prior to their ever doing anything good or evil. The idea that God would create someone in such a way as to ensure that they would suffer eternal hellfire prior to their birth just seems so contrary to the nature and heart of God that weeps over the lost and pleads with them to repent and forgives his mockers while dying on the cross.

I believe we can hold to the fact that God does have foreknowledge of our acts and that he is sovereign over the past and future without ascribing to pan-determinism.

 

[Zachary]

Zachary, I do not know what causes you to be so hateful toward people who attend seminary.

Hateful? ... Methinks that is rather overboard.
I spent 5 years in a small charismatic church where the pastor and his wife
between them had all 9 of the spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12).
They had no use for seminaries because their experience was that
people who came out of them were cessationists ... they preached that
the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the gifts are not for today.
This attitude has been an enormous hindrance historically to God's Plan of salvation!
Not to mention that multitudes of millions have been denied the possibility of being
healed physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually!

Would anyone like an explanation of the reason for this deplorable condition?

 

[Barrd]

Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.


Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[Wormwood]

Hateful? ... Methinks that is rather overboard.
I spent 5 years in a small charismatic church where the pastor and his wife
between them had all 9 of the spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12).
They had no use for seminaries because their experience was that
people who came out of them were cessationists ... they preached that
the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the gifts are not for today.
This attitude has been an enormous hindrance historically to God's Plan of salvation!
Not to mention that multitudes of millions have been denied the possibility of being
healed physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually!

Would anyone like an explanation of the reason for this deplorable condition?

Yes, you essentially said that "scholars" who translate your modern Bibles are being used by Satan to bring division, and are the cause of many leaving the faith. And you essentially implied that almost all who attend seminaries are not "led by the Spirit of God." So, people you do not even know that give their lives to studying the Bible have been labeled by you as essentially satanic, enemies of the church that do not have the Spirit. I would call that hateful. Those are very harsh and condemning comments that are aimed at people you do not know and have never met. I mean,is there a more scathing comment to make to someone than calling them an unspiritual, divisive agent of Satan?

Furthermore, it is simply not true that all seminaries consist of cessationists. Also, the idea that you would put issues about the rapture and tribulation as signs of false teaching shows that you have no room for grace and discussion on debatable issues.

Finally, if your pastor and his wife have "all" of the gifts, why do they need the church? I have never met an eye that could also be the foot, hand, knee, brain, tongue and every other part of the body. To me, this sounds like someone who is suggesting that they are complete in and of themselves and essentially consist of their own little body of Christ. I am not a cessationist, but my major contention with those who place such emphasis on gifts of the Spirit is that they generally use them as measuring sticks by which they can degrade the spirituality of others (such as scholars) while exalting themselves as "Apostles" "prophets" "teachers" "evangelists" "miracle workers" and everything else that draws attention to themselves and puffs themselves up in front of others. Most of these who act this way spend their time proclaiming their own ideas as "thus sayeth the Lord," making spectacles of themselves with falling down or speaking in tongues, and like to spend time predicting people's futures in their imagined prophetic utterances like the Spirit is some sort of psychic hotline (I am not saying this of your pastor, but this is drawn from my many many experiences in this area, and all these "prophets" and "Apostles" who made such prophecies ended up being wildly inaccurate). Spiritual maturity is found in the fruit of the Spirit, love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth, not in the number of gifts a person has. The Corinthians "lacked no gift" and yet they were filled with division, strife, carnality, backbiting, rebellion, sexual immorality and drunkenness. These things are not gauges of spiritual maturity, vitality or barometers of truth. All who make them such are not speaking from the Spirit and they are not in agreement with the Spirit-inspired Scriptures. The Spirit of God is humble, gentle, patient servant that does not draw attention to himself via self-edifying and glorifying displays. Our own Lord Jesus hid from crowds, told those he healed to not tell anyone and was far more eager to quietly wash a dirty foot or entertain a sinful and lonely woman than he was to boast in his powers and demand recognition of his own authority. Those who keep in step with the Spirit follow his path of grace, love, service and humility. Our gifts are for edifying others, not drawing attention to ourselves.

 

[Barrd]

Yes, you essentially said that "scholars" who translate your modern Bibles are being used by Satan to bring division, and are the cause of many leaving the faith. And you essentially implied that almost all who attend seminaries are not "led by the Spirit of God." So, people you do not even know that give their lives to studying the Bible have been labeled by you as essentially satanic, enemies of the church that do not have the Spirit. I would call that hateful. Those are very harsh and condemning comments that are aimed at people you do not know and have never met. I mean,is there a more scathing comment to make to someone than calling them an unspiritual, divisive agent of Satan?

Furthermore, it is simply not true that all seminaries consist of cessationists. Also, the idea that you would put issues about the rapture and tribulation as signs of false teaching shows that you have no room for grace and discussion on debatable issues.

Finally, if your pastor and his wife have "all" of the gifts, why do they need the church? I have never met an eye that could also be the foot, hand, knee, brain, tongue and every other part of the body. To me, this sounds like someone who is suggesting that they are complete in and of themselves and essentially consist of their own little body of Christ. I am not a cessationist, but my major contention with those who place such emphasis on gifts of the Spirit is that they generally use them as measuring sticks by which they can degrade the spirituality of others (such as scholars) while exalting themselves as "Apostles" "prophets" "teachers" "evangelists" "miracle workers" and everything else that draws attention to themselves and puffs themselves up in front of others. Spiritual maturity is found in the fruit of the Spirit, love, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth, not in the number of gifts a person has. The Corinthians "lacked no gift" and yet they were filled with division, strife, carnality, backbiting, rebellion, sexual immorality and drunkenness. These things are not gauges of spiritual maturity, vitality or barometers of truth.

First of all, I agree with you that we owe a tremendous debt to scholars. Without them, we would not have our precious scriptures in our own languages, where we can read and understand them for ourselves.

That said, it should also be made clear that the Bible was meant to be understood by simple people. Fishermen, carpenters, tent-makers, and even housewives can read it and understand it. Perhaps we need our scholars to explain to us that we do not need to read anything into the scriptures, but simply read them as they are written.

Finally, while I do not believe that gifts of the Spirit have ceased, I do understand that it is a wicked generation that seeks after a sign. These gifts were never intended to "puff up" the recipients, but rather to glorify Christ. The show that is regularly staged in some churches does not glorify God at all. It's all about "see how 'spiritual' I am!"

Want to really show me how 'spiritual' you are? Show me your love...

 

[Wormwood]

That said, it should also be made clear that the Bible was meant to be understood by simple people. Fishermen, carpenters, tent-makers, and even housewives can read it and understand it. Perhaps we need our scholars to explain to us that we do not need to read anything into the scriptures, but simply read them as they are written.

Barrd,

I agree with you, as would every "scholar" I have ever met. I am certainly not suggesting that we cannot know God or His Word without some scholar to interpret everything for us. My point was that these "scholars" have made it so that the common fisherman can open a Bible and read it in simple English rather than having to take the word of someone who knows Greek or Hebrew. Great scholars make the word more accessible to everyone, not less. Also, I would say that scholars do also dive deep into difficult theological concepts. This is not because they dont feel the Bible is accessible to everyone, but because, as you know, the depths of the Word of God are unsearchable. We are encouraged to examine our lives and doctrines and to meditate on the Scriptures daily by the Scriptures themselves, as you know. I just have never understood why those who take such commands seriously are so often denigrated by other Christians. I would think we would look up to such people who love the Lord their God will all their minds rather than degrading them as "unspiritual." This is not aimed at you, Barrd, but I have found that many Christians associate spontaneity and even ignorance as what it means to be "spiritual" whereas those who are intentional, studious and organized are often labeled as "carnal" "worldly" and "unspiritual." Since when is studying the Bible intensely and learning from other godly people "unspiritual" and playing Russian roulette with the Bible and saying whatever comes to mind about a passage without consideration of the context or background...."spiritual"? Ugh. As you can see, its a bit of a hot button issue for me! Lol

 

[Barrd]

Barrd,

I agree with you, as would every "scholar" I have ever met. I am certainly not suggesting that we cannot know God or His Word without some scholar to interpret everything for us. My point was that these "scholars" have made it so that the common fisherman can open a Bible and read it in simple English rather than having to take the word of someone who knows Greek or Hebrew. Great scholars make the word more accessible to everyone, not less. Also, I would say that scholars do also dive deep into difficult theological concepts. This is not because they dont feel the Bible is accessible to everyone, but because, as you know, the depths of the Word of God are unsearchable. We are encouraged to examine our lives and doctrines and to meditate on the Scriptures daily by the Scriptures themselves, as you know. I just have never understood why those who take such commands seriously are so often denigrated by other Christians. I would think we would look up to such people who love the Lord their God will all their minds rather than degrading them as "unspiritual." This is not aimed at you, Barrd, but I have found that many Christians associate spontaneity and even ignorance as what it means to be "spiritual" whereas those who are intentional, studious and organized are often labeled as "carnal" "worldly" and "unspiritual." Since when is studying the Bible intensely and learning from other godly people "unspiritual" and playing Russian roulette with the Bible and saying whatever comes to mind about a passage without consideration of the context or background...."spiritual"? Ugh. As you can see, its a bit of a hot button issue for me! Lol

Yeah, I kinda noticed that, WW. And I do understand where you're coming from.
Still, I do believe that we can search the deep things of God without ever using such terms as "exegesis" or "hermeneutics". It is simply a matter of picking the Book up, and reading it.
Do that, with an open mind, and an open heart....and God will do the rest.
I believe that with every particle of my soul and every cell of my heart.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Thank God for the scholars who made it possible for even a 12 year old girl to be able to read and understand her grandmother's wonderful Christmas gift....my very first "big girl" Bible of my very own!

(I hope your wives were all beautiful, and all your children were rich! :wub: )

 

[Zachary]

All a pile of excuses ... most of your comments are pathetic.

And all of this talk about scholars who wrote the original Bibles.
They never went to any cemetaries, er ... seminaries.

And don't you know that the global elite are the ones who watered down
most of the modern Bibles, such as The Nearly Inspired Version?
For a reason, of course ... which will be apparent to you in 2016.

There was absolutely NO misuse of the gifts in this church that I speak of.
No one was trying to parade their spiritual gifts ... no one!

And these types of churches were almost totally banned from existence
by those spoken of in the OP.

As for many other churches, it is just confirmed what is written about Satan:
[SIZE=11pt]“the ruler of this world” (John 12:31)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]“there is no truth in him ... he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9)[/SIZE]

 

[justaname]

All a pile of excuses.
And all of this talk about scholars who wrote the original Bibles.
They never went to any cemetaries, er ... seminaries.

And don't you know that the global elite are the ones who watered down
most of the modern Bibles, such as The Nearly Inspired Version.
For a reason, of course ... which will be apparent to you in 2016.

Hmmm...this is interesting. Do you know anyone who worked on this translation? (NIV)

Have you ever met any of the "global elite"? How many of the "global elite" are biblical scholars?

 

[Wormwood]

These comments do not even justify a response. Lets get back to the OP, folks.

 

[Zachary]

Yes, after the original apostles died off ...
Satan (through self-appointed church leaders)
blocked God's Plan for evangelizing the world
and prevented many millions of people from
being healed of their maladies of all kinds!
Disastrous.

 

[Wormwood]

There was another guy who felt that the whole church was corrupt and only he saw the flaws and thus appointed himself as God's vessel to right all those wrongs from those evil church leaders throughout history. His name was Joseph Smith.

Can we get back to the OP now?

 

[Zachary]

Can we get back to the OP now?

Yes, I'd like to ... but, in my experience, people just don't want to discuss the dire warning verses I post.
So, I just post 'em to get people to read them.
Often, they say these passages are taken out of context.