5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

[ATP]

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

 

[Wormwood]

Are you serious that it is out of the Thessalonians faith, love and hope that these acts and characteristics sprung? How did you come by to understand that the content is very clear that faith itself is not a work in 1 Th 1:3? The Bible declares in Eph 4:5 that there is only one faith, and in Eph 2:8 declares, for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. God is the only One Who defines His own terms as He is the Author of the Bible. So how can you reconcile these passages with that of 1 Th 1:3 where you have declared faith is not a work?

Yes, I am serious. Faith is never called a "work" in the NT, but is always contrasted with works. τοῦ ἔργου τῆς πίστεως, is similiar to saying, "Faith's work." It is not saying faith = work, but work that belongs to someone's faith. In the same way,τοῦ κόπου τῆς ἀγάπης, is similar to saying, "love's labor." It is not saying labor = love, but labor that belongs to, or is the result of someone's love.

I dont know what Eph. 4:5 has to do with this discussion. Yes, there is one Christian faith, one Lord, one Savior, etc. How does that equate our one faith to faith = works? I do not know where you are going with this reference. Can you explain?

The Greek in Eph. 2:8 makes it clear that "faith" is not what "that not of yourselves" is referring to. It is salvation as a whole, not to grace or faith. This commentator puts it concisely:

What is the meaning of “this,” which is given of God and is not from yourselves? Is it “faith” that is the gift of God? Since “faith” is a word of feminine gender, and “this” and “it” are neuter gender, normal grammar disallows referring back to “faith.” For the same reason “this” cannot refer back to the feminine word “grace.” It is more likely that the neuter words refer to the entire situation of salvation: it is God’s doing, not our own.19 Even our own responses, such as repenting and believing in Jesus, would not be possible unless God had invited us to do so (cf. Acts 11:18).

Kenneth L. Boles, Galatians & Ephesians, The College Press NIV Commentary (Joplin, MO: College Press, 1993), Eph 2:8.

It is not as simple as you think. The Bible is a very complex book. Indeed, we are justified by faith but whose faith, Jesus' faith (Ga 2:16) or man's faith? Even Abraham's faith was imputed/accounted (given) to him for righteousness.

We are justified by our faith in Christ's work. Abraham's righteousness (not his faith) was imputed. He "believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." It was not his belief that was credited to him, but his righteousness because of his belief. Gal. 2:16 is not talking about Jesus' faith by which we are justified. Although the Greek could permit this, the context is clear that it is our faith in Jesus that justifies us.

“yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.” (Galatians 2:16, ESV)

I'm afraid you and ATP mean the same thing but go by different routes. One insists that in order to be saved all that is needed is to believe while the other insists on faith, yet unbeknown to both, one is a verb and the other a noun of the same word.

No we do not mean the same thing. I know that faith and belief are the same Greek word pistis. ATP is arguing that once a person believes, they cannot cease to believe. He says their faith is the result of God's choosing the man rather than the man choosing to believe. I am arguing that once a person believes they can cease to believe and that faith is our response to the Gospel that is a free-will choice. Our faith is not the result of God's predetermined choice before the foundation of the the world to save a few and condemn eternally the rest.

IS MANKIND GOING TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS DID ALL THE WORK TO SAVE HIM OR WILL MAN INSIST THAT HE CAN SOMEHOW CONTRIBUTE TO HIS SALVATION BY BELIEVING OR HAVING FAITH IN JESUS?

I find this statement to be biblically baseless. Again, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that trust/faith in God is somehow "contributing" or working toward one's own salvation. Trust is a necessary response to Christ's saving work. If not, I could make the statement:

IS MANKIND GOING TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS DID A WORK THAT ONLY SAVES A PREDETERMINED FEW WHILE ALSO PREDETERMINING THE DESTRUCTION OF BILLIONS FOR ALL ETERNITY BY NOT GIVING THEM FAITH?

Faith is our response to God, not God's initiative toward us. God expects us to believe and judges people when they do not. Read again this very basic verse of the Bible:

“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” (John 3:17–18, ESV)

Notice, a person is condemned because "he has not believed" not because "God did not grant faith." Belief originates with the individual in response to the Gospel, just as you can choose to believe or disbelieve what I am writing, so also we have the freedom to choose to believe or not to believe what God has spoken.

 

[StanJ]

Yes, I am serious. Faith is never called a "work" in the NT, but is always contrasted with works. τοῦ ἔργου τῆς πίστεως, is similiar to saying, "Faith's work." It is not saying faith = work, but work that belongs to someone's faith. In the same way,τοῦ κόπου τῆς ἀγάπης, is similar to saying, "love's labor." It is not saying labor = love, but labor that belongs to, or is the result of someone's love.

I dont know what Eph. 4:5 has to do with this discussion. Yes, there is one Christian faith, one Lord, one Savior, etc. How does that equate our one faith to faith = works? I do not know where you are going with this reference. Can you explain?

The Greek in Eph. 2:8 makes it clear that "faith" is not what "that not of yourselves" is referring to salvation as a whole, not to grace or faith. This commentator puts it concisely:




We are justified by our faith in Christ's work. Abraham's righteousness (not his faith) was imputed. He "believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." It was not his belief that was credited to him, but his righteousness because of his belief. Gal. 2:16 is not talking about Jesus' faith by which we are justified. Although the Greek could permit this, the context is clear that it is our faith in Jesus that justifies us.




No we do not mean the same thing. I know that faith and belief are the same Greek word pistis. ATP is arguing that once a person believes, they cannot cease to believe. He says their faith is the result of God's choosing the man rather than the man choosing to believe. I am arguing that once a person believes they can cease to believe and that faith is our response to the Gospel that is a free-will choice. Our faith is not the result of God's predetermined choice before the foundation of the the world to save a few and condemn eternally the rest.


I find this statement to be biblically baseless. Again, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that trust/faith in God is somehow "contributing" or working toward one's own salvation. Trust is a necessary response to Christ's saving work. If not, I could make the statement:

IS MANKIND GOING TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS DID A WORK THAT ONLY SAVES A PREDETERMINED FEW WHILE ALSO PREDETERMINING THE DESTRUCTION OF BILLIONS FOR ALL ETERNITY BY NOT GIVING THEM FAITH?

Faith is our response to God, not God's initiative toward us. God expects us to believe and judges people when they do not. Read again this very basic verse of the Bible:


Notice, a person is condemned because "he has not believed" not because "God did not grant faith." Belief originates with the individual in response to the Gospel, just as you can choose to believe or disbelieve what I am writing, so also we have the freedom to choose to believe or not to believe what God has spoken.

Obviously we agree on far more than we disagree. Good post.

 

[ATP]

just as you can choose to believe or disbelieve what I am writing, so also we have the freedom to choose to believe or not to believe what God has spoken.

Fortunately, it doesn't work that way. Being sealed in the Holy Spirit isn't based on your teenage issues or your every day feelings about your favorite boy band that recently broke up. It's about what Jesus did on the cross for you once and for all. Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins once and for all? Let's grow up bro.

Rom 4:7-8 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Rom 6:10 NIV The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us ALL our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Heb 7:27 NIV Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:24-28 NIV For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Heb 10:10-14 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

1 Pet 3:18 NIV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

 

[Wormwood]

Fortunately, it doesn't work that way. Being sealed in the Holy Spirit isn't based on your teenage issues or your every day feelings about your favorite boy band that recently broke up. It's about what Jesus did on the cross for you once and for all. Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins once and for all? Let's grow up bro.

The problem, ATP, as I see it, is that you have allowed your Calvinism to color all these verses in a particular light. You read all these verses and see OSAS and I do not see these things at all. I believe all the verses you posted. I just believe they do not mean what you are implying (and often the context teaches the opposite). I dont think our faith is a mere feeling that comes and goes. It is a very solid, and steady belief that shapes daily life. Belief that God exists is not something that comes and goes like my favorite song. We are called to be disciples and a disciple is not a flakey, hokey pokey kind of Christian. So, if that is your concern about my position on the necessity of faith, then it is unfounded.

“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” (Romans 11:22–23, ESV)

Interesting verse. Now how can someone "continue in his kindness" or not? It sure makes it sound like we have a choice and not that once we have accepted the kindness of God in Christ through belief that we can still be "cut off." Are you suggesting this being "cut off" is about heavenly reward as well? Paul makes it very clear here that a person "stands fast through faith" and if they do not continue in the faith, they should "fear."

“Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.” (Romans 11:19–21, ESV)

These verses teach the antithesis of divine determinism. We stand because of our faith, and if we become arrogant and think we cannot be broken off because we are the "chosen" then we are in grave danger. Our being "chosen" is directly related to our faith, not some divine pre-selection where God has determined we are better than the rest who will not receive grace because they are not the "elect" like we are. This attitude reflects the attitude of the Jews who faltered in their belief because they failed to see the necessity of faith and began trusting in their own standing as "chosen" rather than the faith that originally made them who they were.

 

[ATP]

and if they do not continue in the faith, they should "fear."

No, that's wrong. We no longer have the spirit of fear Rom 8:15 ESV, 2 Tim 1:7 ESV, Heb 2:14-15 ESV, 1 John 4:18 ESV.

A born again christian will not only continue in the faith, but they will no longer fear death, because not even death can separate us from God.

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[Wormwood]

ATP,

I basically quoted a verse warns the Romans (and us) that if they do not continue in the faith, they should "fear." You said, "No, that's wrong." How can I be wrong when I simply quoted the verse? I would appreciate it if you actually dealt with the verses rather than quoting your own series of verses to deflect the one I posted. If you want me to give you my thoughts on any given verse that you think proves your points, then I would be happy to. However, I would appreciate it if you would respond to what I post rather than just try to deflect it with a barrage of "No, that's wrong" comments with a smattering of verses that supposedly oppose these verses I shared (are you suggesting the Scriptures contradict one another?!). If you want a dialogue, you respond to my thoughts and then I will respond to yours. Getting bunkered down in your theological stance and throwing scriptures like grenades is not an effective way to learn from one another and have a meaningful dialogue.

 

[ATP]

ATP,

I basically quoted a verse warns the Romans (and us) that if they do not continue in the faith, they should "fear." You said, "No, that's wrong." How can I be wrong when I simply quoted the verse? I would appreciate it if you actually dealt with the verses rather than quoting your own series of verses to deflect the one I posted. If you want me to give you my thoughts on any given verse that you think proves your points, then I would be happy to. However, I would appreciate it if you would respond to what I post rather than just try to deflect it with a barrage of "No, that's wrong" comments with a smattering of verses that supposedly oppose these verses I shared (are you suggesting the Scriptures contradict one another?!). If you want a dialogue, you respond to my thoughts and then I will respond to yours. Getting bunkered down in your theological stance and throwing scriptures like grenades is not an effective way to learn from one another and have a meaningful dialogue.

I did respond. You say we should fear hell, and scripture disagrees with you Rom 8:38-39, Rev 20:14. Why fear hell if God never leaves you. I don't understand.

Psalm 107:1-2 NIV Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever. 2Let the redeemed of the Lord tell their story—those he redeemed from the hand of the foe,

 

[ATP]

You said, "No, that's wrong." How can I be wrong when I simply quoted the verse?

Taking them out of context is a start.

 

[Wormwood]

Care to explain how I took them out of context? Paul says that these Roman believers should "fear" and that they would be "cut off" if they do not "continue" in faith. How am I misusing that verse?

 

[ATP]

Care to explain how I took them out of context? Paul says that these Roman believers should "fear" and that they would be "cut off" if they do not "continue" in faith. How am I misusing that verse?

They were cut off because of unbelief. They never had saving faith bro.

Rom 11:18 NIV do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

 

[Wormwood]

That explanation makes no sense to me. This is a hypothetical in the subjunctive mood. They are currently under God's "kindness." Paul is warning them. He is not saying they are currently cut off. So, is he warning them that they currently are not saved and their faith isnt real? No, that makes no sense either.

“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Romans 11:22, ESV)

God's kindness is currently being expressed to them because of they stand by faith but God is "severe" toward those who have "fallen." Paul warns them to "continue in his kindness" so that they will not be "cut off." This has nothing to do with who has "saving faith" (such a term isnt even used). It is about continuing in the kindness they currently know, and the very real possibility of being cut off from that kindness.

 

[ATP]

So, is he warning them that they currently are not saved and their faith isnt real? No, that makes no sense either.

That's exactly what he's saying. A branch remains on the tree because of a healthy root Wormwood. Jesus Christ is the root and salvation.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Rom 11:23 NIV And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Wormwood]

So you think Paul is telling these Romans they are not saved? He says they have been "grafted in" to this tree. He warns them they could be "cut off" from the tree if they do not continue in the faith. Meanwhile, the Israelites were "cut off" from the root and God has the power to "graft them back in" if they do not "continue in unbelief." This analogy of the tree & branches is very different from the parable of the seeds. I dont think we should mix the parables of Jesus in one context with an entirely different illustration about Israel and the Gentiles from Paul.

 

[Zachary]

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession
—to the praise of his glory.

I know this is a trillion miles over your head, but maybe it will help someone ...

Paul was ONLY writing to the Ephesians were were FAITHFUL saints (1:1).

 

[Barrd]

Utterly amazing, the lengths some folks will go to, in order to avoid the truth...
Yes, we can so sin as to lose our salvation.
We can turn from God and walk away...

 

[Wormwood]

 

[FHII]

Wormwood,

Regarding this issue with Romans: let me see if I understand your concern correctly. If someone is predestined for salvation, why are there warnings of losing salvation to them?

Is that the problem? If so, I don't have a problem God giving them warnings and them still being predestined to eternal life. It may be one of God's ways to keep them focused. Those that are predestined to life heed such warnings, and those predestined to damnation don't take them seriously.

 

[Wormwood]

FHII,

Well, my concern is more in line with the concept of God's predetermination of salvation by his own sovereign decree before the creation of the world. If God's predestination is based on foreknowledge (which is what you seem to imply) then I would likely agree and see those warnings as purposeful in fulfilling what God already knows by His divine foreknowledge. Thus, the warnings do serve a purpose to enact that which God already has foreknowledge.

However, if salvation comes by sovereign decree rather than individual response (faith), then the warnings dont seem to have any purpose. In this case, "saving faith" is granted by God and it is preserved by God. Thus, there is no danger of a person losing focus because God has determined their salvation apart from their own decision making. They cannot lose focus because God would not permit it. Salvation, as ATP sees it, has nothing to do with the individual. In fact, as he has argued previously, faith itself is a work and therefore to even see the need for individual faith is to be guilty of "works based salvation." So, my question to him is, "If your position is true, why do we see these warnings and why would Paul express concern that they could be "cut off" if it is impossible due to God's predeteremined election?"

Does this make sense?

 

[FHII]

Wormwood,

I appreciate your reply. There is reason in it, yet I'm not ready to fully agree.

God's sovereign decree doesn't mean there won't be an individual response. They aren't conflicting points, and I believe the latter is a result of the former. In other words, we do what a son of God does, because God made us to do so. Ever hear the fable of the scorpion and the frog? Same thing, but a different nature.

I do believe we are going to have spiritual battles (doubts, trials of faith, etc), but I also believe God not only predetermined who would persevere, but put those trials there in the first place.