5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

[mjrhealth]

The physical manifestations of God in the OT were just that, manifestations, not actually God as man cannot see a spirit. If you study that issue you will likely deduce that those specific manifestations were the pre-incarnate Jesus.

Only those who do not walk in teh spirirt cannot see God, Adam and Eve where without Sin when they where in the Garden before the fall, there was nothing to seperate them from God untill the fall. But Jesus changed all that. Why do you think it says,

Joh_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I have a friend who has sat in His lap, and he told her," very few will do that", I guess He was right.

This bit

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

There seems to be some confusion...

Did the thief on the cross go to Heaven or Paradise?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Is this Heaven? Or some other place?

2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I don't really see a lot of difference between "Heaven" and Paradise".
Perhaps someone could explain this to me?

 

[Zachary]

FYI, the Kingdom of God/Heaven is NOT the same as heaven.
A kingdom is a place where the King rules His people.
We are in the Kingdom of Heaven as believers. Luke 17:21

Of course, they are not the same thing ... however,
those who are NOT allowed to inherit/enter the kingdom of God
and also NOT allowed to inherit/enter heaven.

 

[Barrd]

Of course, they are not the same thing ... however,
those who are NOT allowed to inherit/enter the kingdom of God
and also NOT allowed to inherit/enter heaven.

Heaven....or Paradise....must also be a part of the Kingdom of God.
Come to think about it...everything that exists must also be under God's sovereign power...

 

[Jun2u]

Please don't ADD to God's word or thoughts. No one has EVER seen God means no one has been TO Heaven except Jesus, because He is the WORD incarnate. Enoch and Elijah did not go to heaven, they went to Paradise to await the Tribulation and fulfill Heb 9:27.
No, people DIE because of their sins...they go to hell because they have NOT accepted God's provision for that sin.

How ironic that you can accuse me of “adding to God's word or thoughts” when yourself do likewise?
Why is it alright for you to say, man cannot see God because He is spirit and not actually God (post #40), and I can't?

In my language this is known as a hypocrite!

Where do you read in scripture that Enoch and Elijah did NOT go to heaven, they went to Paradise to await Tribulation and fulfill Heb 9:27

Hear and listen to what the scriptures say:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise Lu 23:43.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost Lu 23:46

Tell me, during this happening at the cross, where was the Father? In heaven? Very good!!!

Did not Jesus say, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”? Therefore, Jesus and the thief went straight to heaven. Scripture proof 2Co 5:8.

So, would you agree that Paradise is synonymous with heaven? Even the Barrd knows this.

Is Heb 9:27 speaking of saved, unsaved or men in general? Saved men DO NOT COME UNDER CONDEMNATION! Ro 8:1

What if I told you those in Christ have already been judged, would you believe me? The scriptures say so but I want you to search out the Bible where this can be found, I will not do the homework for you.

You said: people go to hell because they have NOT accepted God's provision for that sin. Where do you read this?

With your kind of salvation that is, to accept, to confess, to believe, to have faith in, or whatever else man do to save themselves, how then will babies, children, or adults with a mind of a child be saved seeing they DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND OR DISCERN THESE THINGS, are these people without hope and lost forever?

I thank God every day that salvation belongs to Him and not from man.

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

Only those who do not walk in teh spirirt cannot see God, Adam and Eve where without Sin when they where in the Garden before the fall, there was nothing to seperate them from God untill the fall. But Jesus changed all that. Why do you think it says,

So you're calling Jesus a liar? Exactly where does the Bible say those who do not walk in the Spirit cannot see God?

 

[StanJ]

Where do you read in scripture that Enoch and Elijah did NOT go to heaven, they went to Paradise to await Tribulation and fulfill Heb 9:27

Because that is what Jesus and scripture taught. Do you not believe Jesus when he says NO MAN has ever seen God?

Paradise is NOT heaven, because Jesus and the Bible tells us we are not destined to heaven but to Eternal LIFE.
How can you be born again and not understand this?

 

[mjrhealth]

Paradise is NOT heaven, because Jesus and the Bible tells us we are not destined to heaven but to Eternal LIFE.
How can you be born again and not understand this?

And where do you think we are going to spend that eternal llife.

Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Mat_10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In all His Love

 

[justaname]

Those who saw Jesus saw God incarnate.
Jesus is not a liar, no one has seen the Father except the Son. Yet to see the Son is to see the Father.

We are citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven now, the Kingdom is at hand.

 

[Barrd]

How ironic that you can accuse me of “adding to God's word or thoughts” when yourself do likewise?
Why is it alright for you to say, man cannot see God because He is spirit and not actually God (post #40), and I can't?

In my language this is known as a hypocrite!

Where do you read in scripture that Enoch and Elijah did NOT go to heaven, they went to Paradise to await Tribulation and fulfill Heb 9:27

Hear and listen to what the scriptures say:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise Lu 23:43.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost Lu 23:46

Tell me, during this happening at the cross, where was the Father? In heaven? Very good!!!

Did not Jesus say, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”? Therefore, Jesus and the thief went straight to heaven. Scripture proof 2Co 5:8.

So, would you agree that Paradise is synonymous with heaven? Even the Barrd knows this.

Is Heb 9:27 speaking of saved, unsaved or men in general? Saved men DO NOT COME UNDER CONDEMNATION! Ro 8:1

What if I told you those in Christ have already been judged, would you believe me? The scriptures say so but I want you to search out the Bible where this can be found, I will not do the homework for you.

You said: people go to hell because they have NOT accepted God's provision for that sin. Where do you read this?

With your kind of salvation that is, to accept, to confess, to believe, to have faith in, or whatever else man do to save themselves, how then will babies, children, or adults with a mind of a child be saved seeing they DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND OR DISCERN THESE THINGS, are these people without hope and lost forever?

I thank God every day that salvation belongs to Him and not from man.

To God Be The Glory

"Even The Barrd knows this?"

Have I just been insulted?

 

[Barrd]

NOBODY will ever see heaven...that is not the Christian's destination, just as Jesus said.

Stan, my dear brother, I think you may have missed my earlier post.
To be fair, it wasn't addressed to anyone in particular...just my thoughts on this particular subject.


Anyhow, I would like to now address it to you, specifically:


There seems to be some confusion...

Did the thief on the cross go to Heaven or Paradise?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Is this Heaven? Or some other place?

2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I don't really see a lot of difference between "Heaven" and Paradise".
Perhaps someone you, Stan, could explain this to me?

 

[StanJ]

And where do you think we are going to spend that eternal llife.

Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Mat_10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In all His Love

On the new earth as Jesus told us in His last Revelation, in chapter 21.

I have to wonder though why you twice now have avoided my direct question about believing Jesus?

 

[StanJ]

Anyhow, I would like to now address it to you, specifically:
There seems to be some confusion...
Did the thief on the cross go to Heaven or Paradise?

Is this Heaven? Or some other place?
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I don't really see a lot of difference between "Heaven" and Paradise".
Perhaps you, Stan, could explain this to me?

To Paradise as Jesus said in Luke 23:43, and as he depicted in Luke 16:22-25. Rev 2 is not talking about Paradise, but about THE paradise that existed in the Garden of Eden and has been duplicated in the NEW Jerusalem. Rev 22:1-2

What Paul is talking about in 2 Cor 12 is how Jesus taught him personally. He himself didn't really know for sure, but I would have no problem with it being the Paradise that Lazarus and the thief went to.

Heaven is where God exists, resides, lives, whatever you want to call it, but again as Jesus said, NO MAN has ever seen God.
The NT talks about heaven, and about heavenly things, and the Kingdom of God/Heaven. They are all three different realities or things.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

 

[mjrhealth]

Do you not believe Jesus when he says NO MAN has ever seen God?

Oh I believe Jesus, but you see Adam was a man and He and Eve walked with God in the garden of Eden before the fall, why, simply they where perfect and without sin, there was nothing to stop them from standing before God, and remember it was God who breathed life into Adam, who do you think Adam saw first???? It wasnt Eve.

 

[mjrhealth]

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isa_66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

 

[Zachary]

There seems to be some confusion...
I don't really see a lot of difference between "Heaven" and Paradise".
Perhaps someone could explain this to me?

The Slavs in Eastern Europe use the word Paradise for Heaven.
This originated with the Eastern Orthodox churches in that region.

 

[StanJ]

Oh I believe Jesus, but you see Adam was a man and He and Eve walked with God in the garden of Eden before the fall, why, simply they where perfect and without sin, there was nothing to stop them from standing before God, and remember it was God who breathed life into Adam, who do you think Adam saw first???? It wasnt Eve.

So you say ONE thing but believe another? Both of your views can't be right at the same time. Either NO MAN has seen God or gone to heaven, or Jesus is a liar. Deflecting to verses that you eisegete to say something different just means you either don't understand scripture, or refuse to accept what it does say.

 

[Barrd]

To Paradise as Jesus said in Luke 23:43, and as he depicted in Luke 16:22-25. Rev 2 is not talking about Paradise, but about THE paradise that existed in the Garden of Eden and has been duplicated in the NEW Jerusalem. Rev 22:1-2

Are you speaking of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? Jesus calls the place where Lazarus was "the bosom of Abraham". How do you get Paradise from this?
I always thought this story was a parable...

Rev 2 is not talking about Paradise, but about THE paradise that existed in the Garden of Eden and has been duplicated in the NEW Jerusalem. Rev 22:1-2

First of all, I'm not sure how you get that.
And second, the New Jerusalem begins as a part of "heaven":

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

What Paul is talking about in 2 Cor 12 is how Jesus taught him personally. He himself didn't really know for sure, but I would have no problem with it being the Paradise that Lazarus and the thief went to.

2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

I've never really understood how people get that Paul was speaking of himself, here...I had always thought that he was speaking of John, who wrote the Book of Revelation.
However, let's assume that Paul was speaking of himself...still, I do not see how you get that he was caught up to "Abraham's bosom".
What Paul was unsure about was whether this one who was caught up into Paradise, whether it was him, or some other man, was caught up in his body, or out of his body. There doesn't seem to be any confusion in his mind about where...only how.

Heaven is where God exists, resides, lives, whatever you want to call it, but again as Jesus said, NO MAN has ever seen God.
The NT talks about heaven, and about heavenly things, and the Kingdom of God/Heaven. They are all three different realities or things.

Speaking of The Book of Revelation....where was John, and what was he writing about?
He does seem to have been in the place where God has His throne...

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

When Jesus spoke these words, He had not yet been to the cross.
The question is, where did He and the thief go, after the cross?
Where is Jesus right now? Is the thief there with Him?
And where is He preparing the place for us?

 

[Barrd]

The Slavs in Eastern Europe use the word Paradise for Heaven.
This originated with the Eastern Orthodox churches in that region.

So, then, the two terms are interchangeable?
That's kind of what I had thought.

 

[StanJ]

The Slavs in Eastern Europe use the word Paradise for Heaven.
This originated with the Eastern Orthodox churches in that region.

It's a tad more involved than that. The etymology of Common Slavic rai is disputed. It is now generally regarded as a direct borrowing from Iranian ray, "heavenly radiance, beatitude".
It does NOT originate from EO at all.