5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

[Barrd]

Please try to understand ...
-- Satan attacks Jesus' most anointed ones with the most power he can muster
-- God's Truth can never be proven wrong by Satan or his little deceived ones
-- Cessationism is from the very pits of hell, as are many other false doctrines

Hmmm...

I'm not exactly a "cessationist"...I know that the Holy Spirit has not gone anywhere, nor is His power limited.
However, as I say....I know about the "Toronto Blessing"....and I know people who have worked with Benny Hinn.
I have been in several Pentecostal churches here in Alabama.

And I know for a fact that there is a lot of faking going on, having seen it with my very own eyes.
God is not mocked.

Let's just say that I am leery of signs and wonders that if it were possible would lead away even God's very elect....

 

[Barrd]

Did it ever occur to you guys that, being so eager for this "power from on high", that you open yourself up to any spirit who might want to make a show of you?
Have you ever considered, when you "speak in tongues", but don't have a clue what you are actually saying, that you might be cursing God, without knowing it?

I remember one particular incident...true story, I swear it...where I went to a Pentecostal church at the behest of a friend who truly loves me. Near the end of the service, the pastor's wife stood up and began to speak in tongues. As she continued, she began to act as if she were getting angry. She continued...getting angrier and angrier...before long, she was running through the aisles, randomly hitting out at people. Her husband had to restrain her.
I do believe she was being acted on by some spirit...but I don't think there was anything holy about it.

And that, imho, is the danger...

 

[Zachary]

Let's just say that I am leery of signs and wonders that if it were possible would lead away even God's very elect....

Signs and wonders accompanying the gospel can lead away the elect?
Only if it's a false gospel, such as the "name it and claim it" prosperity gospel.

I suggest that you join up with a Pentecostal/charismatic missionary group and head off
somewhere in the world ... and get educated about what the Lord is doing these days!
But, He certainly is not doing it in America, which He is getting ready to destroy!

Of course, you need to be led of the Lord to go and do this ...
and have several confirmations from Spirit-filled believers whom you trust.

 

[StanJ]

I could never be a charismatic...

I grew up near Buffalo N.Y. I know about "The Toronto Blessing".
And, hey....here I am, about an hour out of Pensacola. I actually know people who have been involved with Benny Hinn....
Let me just say....I have no illusions.

Sadly, your examples are exceptions, but I understand the concern. What you have to realize is that ALL of God's word is true, so when Is 55:11 says what it does, it holds for even those that do things with wrong motivation or understanding, or just simply for self aggrandizement.

 

[StanJ]

Well, after being hijacked over about 100 posts, we are back on track (somewhat).
Finding any kind of a true NT church in North America is just about impossible.
Kuddos to the Lord for leading thou into Pentecostalism (is that a word?).

I was saved in a PAOC church, and believe me I was very vocal over the years as to some of their doctrines. I did however grow and learn that anything man does is imperfect, so I stopped looking for perfection and instead looked to BE part of the BOC as Paul directed. As I am retired and do not own a car, I can't get out to even a local church and sadly my kids don't seem to concerned about that in my life. I miss fellowship but don't worry about it.

 

[Barrd]

Signs and wonders accompanying the gospel can lead away the elect?
Only if it's a false gospel, such as the "name it and claim it" prosperity gospel.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

This guy impresses me:

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Joh 4:49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
Joh 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.

He didn't need a sign. He simply had faith, and it was enough.

I suggest that you join up with a Pentecostal/charismatic missionary group and head off
somewhere in the world ... and get educated about what the Lord is doing these days!
But, He certainly is not doing it in America, which He is getting ready to destroy!

I am 65 years old, and disabled, for one thing.
And I have very little to do with Pentecostal/charismatic groups.
Now, don't get me wrong....as I have already said, I am definitely not a "cessationist".
However, as I've also said, I know about the so-called "Toronto Blessing", and I am acquainted with several people who have helped Benny Hinn pull off his so-called "miracles".
Most of what goes on in the charismatic movement is pure fakery, and quite reprehensible.
Some of it, I very greatly fear, is being done by another spirit, which is not holy at all. People think that they are "being led of the Spirit", but in reality, they have given themselves up to an evil spirit.

Have you ever heard of Jesus slaying anyone in the spirit? Or being overcome by "holy laughter" or being "drunk in the spirit" or any other such manifestation?
Of course, you haven't. Nor have any of His Apostles indulged in such nonsense.

The one and only example of "speaking in tongues" in the Bible feature the Apostles speaking in known human tongues that the people around them heard and understood. There were no senseless babblings going on in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost.
And when Paul says that he is glad that he speaks in tongues "more than ye all"...well, didn't he have reason to be glad? The man traveled all over the known world with his gospel message....I'm fairly sure that the ability to speak in human languages that had not been known to him before came in quite handy, don't you think?

Yes, the Holy Spirit is still alive and well, and active in the lives of believing Christians. But He isn't putting on a show. He doesn't draw attention to Himself, but rather, directs our attention to Jesus, always glorifying Him, and never Himself.

Of course, you need to be led of the Lord to go and do this ...
and have several confirmations from Spirit-filled believers whom you trust.

I only know of one "Spirit-filled believer" that I would trust.
She had volunteered for the suicide hot line, and was talking to a very depressed lady, when, to her amazement, she was speaking in an unknown tongue, although, like me, she has no faith at all in the so-called "charismatic movement".
Before long, the lady on the other end of the phone was in tears, thanking her over and over again.
She was totally amazed that this girl could speak in the rather obscure Hawaiian dialect that her grandmother had spoken in when she was but a child...but not nearly as amazed as my friend, who had never spoken a word of Hawaiian before in her life....

 

[Jun2u]

It was a parable, but like all parables, they are based on true principles. The Bosom of Abraham was also known as Paradise in the OT

Where do you read in the Bible that the “bosom of Abraham” is also known as Paradise in the OT? You can't just randomly say that a certain passage means thus without biblical texts to support it.

Luke 16 is a parable indeed. A parable is an earthly story with heavenly/spiritual meaning and this makes the Bible a story book given to mankind by God.

The fact is, Abraham is a picture of God the Father in Luke 16. You are familiar of course about types and figures, shadows and substances in the scriptures, right?

For someone who has read or studied the Bible for 45 years, you don't seem to be spiritual. You see, you will never understand the things of God because you are a natural man that cannot discern spiritual things 1Co.2:14.

Or, are you one of those ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth?

Again I say, Paradise is synonymous with Heaven.

When Jesus told the thief 'today thou shalt be with me in paradise' He meant heaven for the simple fact that the Father cannot be any where else but in heaven when Jesus cried, 'Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit'. And, the proof text is 2Co 5:8.

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There are many, many more like scriptures, shall I continue? I think you got the gist.

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

Where do you read in the Bible that the “bosom of Abraham” is also known as Paradise in the OT? You can't just randomly say that a certain passage means thus without biblical texts to support it.

Luke 16 is a parable indeed. A parable is an earthly story with heavenly/spiritual meaning and this makes the Bible a story book given to mankind by God.

The fact is, Abraham is a picture of God the Father in Luke 16. You are familiar of course about types and figures, shadows and substances in the scriptures, right?

For someone who has read or studied the Bible for 45 years, you don't seem to be spiritual. You see, you will never understand the things of God because you are a natural man that cannot discern spiritual things 1Co.2:14.

Or, are you one of those ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth?

Again I say, Paradise is synonymous with Heaven.

When Jesus told the thief 'today thou shalt be with me in paradise' He meant heaven for the simple fact that the Father cannot be any where else but in heaven when Jesus cried, 'Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit'. And, the proof text is 2Co 5:8.

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There are many, many more like scriptures, shall I continue? I think you got the gist.

To God Be The Glory

Well now you've gone off the deep end so I don't think there is anything I can say that will make you see. You ask me to prove points clearly shown and then tell us that Abraham is a picture of God? Then you follow that up with an ad hominem about my abilities to understand the Bible? That's the common ploy of desperate people who don't want to listen to truth, and you've done it a few time on this thread alone. You're trying to assert that Jesus didn't know what words to use and assert He meant something else when you yourself have no proof? You quote scripture that says God is in heaven when that is NOT the issue at hand?
I'd say you should stop while you're so far behind and gather your thoughts, because they are falling apart around you. You can SAY all you want, but I believe God and His word talks about heaven and paradise as two different places, and as NO MAN has EVER seen God, then God cannot be in Paradise where all the dead go. Quite simply, you do NOT believe what Jesus clearly said in John 1:18, 3:13 & 6:46, and also you don't believe what the apostle John said in 1 John 4:12.

I suggest you learn the TRUTH, and it will set you free.

 

[Barrd]

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, we know that, where ever Jesus was, the thief would be with Him. There seems to be some confusion about where "Paradise" is.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hmm. Okay, Paul...were you caught up to the third Heaven, or were you caught up to Paradise?
Or could Heaven and Paradise just be two words for the same place?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Where, exactly, is the Tree of Life?

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul was confident that, when he died, he would be with the Lord Jesus Christ. But where is Jesus?

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

Which takes us back to the question, where is God, which Jun2u answered for us. God, of course is in Heaven.

So, what is the conclusion of the matter?
It seems pretty clear that Paradise is Heaven, God's home.

 

[Barrd]

Well now you've gone off the deep end so I don't think there is anything I can say that will make you see. You ask me to prove points clearly shown and then tell us that Abraham is a picture of God? Then you follow that up with an ad hominem about my abilities to understand the Bible? That's the common ploy of desperate people who don't want to listen to truth, and you've done it a few time on this thread alone. You're trying to assert that Jesus didn't know what words to use and assert He meant something else when you yourself have no proof? You quote scripture that says God is in heaven when that is NOT the issue at hand?
I'd say you should stop while you're so far behind and gather your thoughts, because they are falling apart around you. You can SAY all you want, but I believe God and His word talks about heaven and paradise as two different places, and as NO MAN has EVER seen God, then God cannot be in Paradise where all the dead go. Quite simply, you do NOT believe what Jesus clearly said in John 1:18, 3:13 & 6:46, and also you don't believe what the apostle John said in 1 John 4:12.

I suggest you learn the TRUTH, and it will set you free.

Did it ever occur to you, my brother, that Jesus may have been talking about living men? No living man has seen God at any time, save the living Man Who came down from God...doesn't that make more sense?

Think about it.

 

[Jun2u]

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, we know that, where ever Jesus was, the thief would be with Him. There seems to be some confusion about where "Paradise" is.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hmm. Okay, Paul...were you caught up to the third Heaven, or were you caught up to Paradise?
Or could Heaven and Paradise just be two words for the same place?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Where, exactly, is the Tree of Life?

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul was confident that, when he died, he would be with the Lord Jesus Christ. But where is Jesus?

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

Which takes us back to the question, where is God, which Jun2u answered for us. God, of course is in Heaven.

So, what is the conclusion of the matter?
It seems pretty clear that Paradise is Heaven, God's home.

The character of a child of God is able to teach and also willing to be taught!

If I may borrow the words of our Lord Jesus:

Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Blessed art thou, Barrd: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Any time we learn truth, it is not because we are smart, but because the Spirit of God has reveled it to us.

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

Did it ever occur to you, my brother, that Jesus may have been talking about living men? No living man has seen God at any time, save the living Man Who came down from God...doesn't that make more sense?

Think about it.

Well He didn't qualify it and I see no reason to add to His words. Men don't stop being men when they die, as Jesus made clear in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Paradise. What does Heb 9:27 say? Do people not get judged?
Did Jesus only save LIVING men? Was Abraham not saved by Jesus' sacrifice? Paul tells us in Romans 4 that indeed he was, and that ALL who believed as Abraham did, were also.

 

[Barrd]

The character of a child of God is able to teach and also willing to be taught!

If I may borrow the words of our Lord Jesus:

Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Blessed art thou, Barrd: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Any time we learn truth, it is not because we are smart, but because the Spirit of God has reveled it to us.

To God Be The Glory

AMEN

And, in the words of my very favorite donkey....
"Awe, thanks fer noticin'"

 

[Barrd]

Well He didn't qualify it and I see no reason to add to His words. Men don't stop being men when they die, as Jesus made clear in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Paradise. What does Heb 9:27 say? Do people not get judged?
Did Jesus only save LIVING men? Was Abraham not saved by Jesus' sacrifice? Paul tells us in Romans 4 that indeed he was, and that ALL who believed as Abraham did, were also.

So, where are Moses and Elijah right now?
Do you know?

Again, Jesus is the only LIVING Man to have seen God at any time.

 

[Zachary]

I only know of one "Spirit-filled believer" that I would trust.
She had volunteered for the suicide hot line, and was talking to a very depressed lady, when, to her amazement,
she was speaking in an unknown tongue, although, like me, she has no faith at all in the so-called "charismatic movement". Before long, the lady on the other end of the phone was in tears, thanking her over and over again.
She was totally amazed that this girl could speak in the rather obscure Hawaiian dialect that her grandmother
had spoken in when she was but a child...but not nearly as amazed as my friend, who had never spoken a word
of Hawaiian before in her life....

Thanks for the testimony!

 

[StanJ]

So, where are Moses and Elijah right now?
Do you know?
Again, Jesus is the only LIVING Man to have seen God at any time.

Moses is in Paradise...I don't know where Elijah is, but he ISN'T in heaven, because according to your own logic, he is ALIVE.

 

[justaname]

Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. - Genesis 5:24

 

[Barrd]

Moses is in Paradise...I don't know where Elijah is, but he ISN'T in heaven, because according to your own logic, he is ALIVE.

When last seen on the Mount of Transfiguration, so was Moses alive.

And the Bible clearly tells us that Elijah was taken to Heaven.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You may quibble about which heaven, if you feel so inclined, but that would only be grasping at straws.

EDIT:
Let me add that I totally believe that everyone who is in Heaven is alive.
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living....

Now where have I heard that before??

 

[Barrd]

Thanks for the testimony!

I probably ought to tell you, my friend has never spoken in a language unknown to her since. This was a one-time-only thing.
And neither of us has any faith in the so-called charismatic movement.
We've both seen too many fakes.

 

[Barrd]

Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. - Genesis 5:24

Thank you, Justaname.