5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

[StanJ]

Are you speaking of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? Jesus calls the place where Lazarus was "the bosom of Abraham". How do you get Paradise from this?
I always thought this story was a parable...

It was a parable, but like all parables, they are based on true principles. The Bosom of Abraham was also known as Paradise in the OT

 

[StanJ]

And second, the New Jerusalem begins as a part of "heaven":

The NEW Jerusalem was IN heaven, it was what Jesus went to prepare as He said in John 14:3

 

[Barrd]

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

What about Elijah?

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[StanJ]

I've never really understood how people get that Paul was speaking of himself, here...I had always thought that he was speaking of John, who wrote the Book of Revelation.
However, let's assume that Paul was speaking of himself...still, I do not see how you get that he was caught up to "Abraham's bosom".
What Paul was about was whether this one who was caught up into Paradise, whether it was him, or some other man, was caught up in his body, or out of his body. There doesn't seem to be any confusion in his mind about where...only how.

I didn't say Paul was caught up to Abraham's bosom, I said he was caught up to A paradise, NOT paradise.

Paul died way before John did.

Paul was beheaded in Rome around 67AD, and John died naturally around 98 AD in Ephesus.

Gal 1:12 shows Paul's knowledge was directly revealed to him by Jesus. This is what he alludes to in 2 Cor 12

 

[StanJ]

Speaking of The Book of Revelation....where was John, and what was he writing about?
He does seem to have been in the place where God has His throne...

John was on the Isle of Patmos when he received the last Revelation of Jesus Christ. He didn't physically go anywhere, he was in a vision or revelation on Patmos.
Revelation is about the end times tribulations and the beginning of our Eternal Life.

 

[Barrd]

It was a parable, but like all parables, they are based on true principles. The Bosom of Abraham was also known as Paradise in the OT

Where in the OT does it speak of "The Bosom of Abraham"?

 

[StanJ]

When Jesus spoke these words, He had not yet been to the cross.
The question is, where did He and the thief go, after the cross?
Where is Jesus right now? Is the thief there with Him?
And where is He preparing the place for us?

They went to Paradise as he said they would in Luke 23:43
Jesus is with God in heaven. At His right hand connotes that Jesus is God's power.
The NEW Jerusalem is that place, and IMO it is already done. We now wait on God's mercy and timing.

 

[StanJ]

Where in the OT does it speak of "The Bosom of Abraham"?

I meant in the verbal OT. You would have to study the issue to come to your own conclusions as I have. It's like the Trinity. Once you see it, it becomes clear.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/paradise/

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11900-paradise

 

[StanJ]

What about Elijah?

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

That heaven was the sky in it's context. The aerial heavens, above the clouds.

 

[Barrd]

John was on the Isle of Patmos when he received the last Revelation of Jesus Christ. He didn't physically go anywhere, he was in a vision or revelation on Patmos.
Revelation is about the end times tribulations and the beginning of our Eternal Life.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

I suppose it depends on what you think John meant when he said that he "was in the spirit".
In any case, he was looking at heaven....and it seems that there were people there:

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

In any case, it just seems to me that we ought not to make such pronouncements, as to who is going where, or why, or how...

 

[Barrd]

I meant in the verbal OT. You would have to study the issue to come to your own conclusions as I have. It's like the Trinity. Once you see it, it becomes clear.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/paradise/

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11900-paradise

Please do not be offended, my friend...I am very fond of you, and would not offend you for anything in the world.
Are you a member of the Church of Christ?

 

[Barrd]

I meant in the verbal OT. You would have to study the issue to come to your own conclusions as I have. It's like the Trinity. Once you see it, it becomes clear.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/paradise/

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11900-paradise

From your website:

1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

More confusion....

 

[Barrd]

That heaven was the sky in it's context. The aerial heavens, above the clouds.

Oh, my gosh, poor Elijah!
What happened to him when he left the atmosphere? Did he suffocate? Or implode?

Seriously, where do you think Elijah went?

 

[StanJ]

Oh, my gosh, poor Elijah!
What happened to him when he left the atmosphere? Did he suffocate? Or implode?

Seriously, where do you think Elijah went?

Well it can't be heaven, so I conclude paradise.

 

[StanJ]

Please do not be offended, my friend...I am very fond of you, and would not offend you for anything in the world.
Are you a member of the Church of Christ?

LOL...nope. Just a good old fashioned Pentecostal.

Actually I am not a member of ANY denomination now. Have not been since I retired.

 

[StanJ]

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

I suppose it depends on what you think John meant when he said that he "was in the spirit".
In any case, he was looking at heaven....and it seems that there were people there:

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

In any case, it just seems to me that we ought not to make such pronouncements, as to who is going where, or why, or how...

Revelation is one book that takes years to understand, and I have been a Christian for over 45 years, but still am learning from it. It is the only book that promises a blessing every time we read it or hear it.

I think it meant he had a vision, just as Ezekiel did about the Valley of Dry Bones. Ezekiel 37.

Much of this is hyperbole, so it takes a lot of study to glean what is being said or inferred. I don't have all that study under my belt, but I do see it was NOT the actual heaven, but a glimpse into a spiritual reality of what God will do in the future. Remember, this was John of 2000 centuries ago, and only Jesus knows why He revealed these things to him and what the visions really meant.

When the context makes it clear, I think we can safely know what the future holds, but in the light of what the NT tells us we do receive when we are saved, it is not as much a guess as it is a confirmation of our faith.

 

[Barrd]

Revelation is one book that takes years to understand, and I have been a Christian for over 45 years, but still am learning from it. It is the only book that promises a blessing every time we read it or hear it.

I think it meant he had a vision, just as Ezekiel did about the Valley of Dry Bones. Ezekiel 37.

Much of this is hyperbole, so it takes a lot of study to glean what is being said or inferred. I don't have all that study under my belt, but I do see it was NOT the actual heaven, but a glimpse into a spiritual reality of what God will do in the future. Remember, this was John of 2000 centuries ago, and only Jesus knows why He revealed these things to him and what the visions really meant.

When the context makes it clear, I think we can safely know what the future holds, but in the light of what the NT tells us we do receive when we are saved, it is not as much a guess as it is a confirmation of our faith.

Have I told you that I have been a Christian for over 50 years?
I read the Bible through, cover to cover, for the first time, when I was twelve years old. I became a full-fledged Christian that year...

I believe John got a glimpse into the real Heaven.
Yes, I know this was John of 20 centuries ago (I'm sure that's what you meant, not 2000 centuries)...but then, it was John of 20 centuries ago who wrote The Gospel of John, and John's two Epistles.
It was Paul of 20 centuries ago who wrote the Epistles of Paul.

Think about it.
And God saw fit to include this book in our Bibles.

 

[Barrd]

LOL...nope. Just a good old fashioned Pentecostal.

Actually I am not a member of ANY denomination now. Have not been since I retired.

I could never be a charismatic...

I grew up near Buffalo N.Y. I know about "The Toronto Blessing".
And, hey....here I am, about an hour out of Pensacola. I actually know people who have been involved with Benny Hinn....

Let me just say....I have no illusions.

 

[Zachary]

. Actually I am not a member of ANY denomination now.

Well, after being hijacked over about 100 posts, we are back on track (somewhat).
Finding any kind of a true NT church in North America is just about impossible.
Kuddos to the Lord for leading thou into Pentecostalism (is that a word?).

 

[Zachary]

I could never be a charismatic...
I grew up near Buffalo N.Y. I know about "The Toronto Blessing".

Please try to understand ...
-- Satan attacks Jesus' most anointed ones with the most power he can muster
-- God's Truth can never be proven wrong by Satan or his little deceived ones
-- Cessationism is from the very pits of hell, as are many other false doctrines