5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

[Jun2u]

Faith is not a work. The idea that a person must continue to follow Jesus and trust in him is the very definition of depending on Jesus rather than self.

I beg to differ. According to the Bible, FAITH IS A WORK!

1 Th 1:3 reads:
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Below is my analogy/scenario.

Here is a kingdom and an edict (choose any kind) was given by the king to be obeyed by his subjects throughout the land. The people were not in agreement so they rebelled. The king was furious that he threw the whole lot in the dungeon, and he heard their cry for mercy. The king was a good king and had compassion towards his subjects. He goes down to the dungeon, picks a person here and there...etc., and sets them free. The rest he left behind.

God doesn't just give something and then takes it back and when He does give something especially salvation, it is given forever without wavering, otherwise what is the purpose of salvation? Remember, He saved us while we were yet sinners!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Wormwood]

Right, but you're adding loss of salvation to your silly doctrine dude. That is false. We don't lose salvation, we lose rewards in heaven.

I am simply saying that if a person does not have faith, they are not saved. There is no "works based righteousness" in what I am saying (as you previously implied). Faith is not a "work." We do not earn anything before God by believing. Faith gives us access to grace...favor we have not "earned" by "works." Faith is a response to God's work on our behalf. Saying I believe in a system of works based righteousness is nonsense. You may not like my rejection of Calvinistic OSAS, but you cannot say my views are based in "works based righteousness" or "reliance on self" as you have stated in the other thread. Such a notion goes against everything the NT teaches about faith and works and displays a complete lack of understanding of the biblical doctrine of grace.

I beg to differ. According to the Bible, FAITH IS A WORK!

1 Th 1:3 reads:
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

1 Th. 1:3 is not saying faith is a work. Paul is remembering their works based in faith, labor based in love, and patience based in hope. It is out of the Thessalonians faith, love and hope that these acts and characteristics spring. Paul is not teaching that faith is a work, unless you think Paul contradicts himself. Because I believe the Bible is inspired and without error, I do not think Paul is contradicting himself. The context is very clear that faith itself is not a work. Our good works are products of our faith. That is what Paul is saying. Our faith works, but faith itself is not a work.

“yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.” (Galatians 2:16, ESV)

“Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—” (Galatians 3:5, ESV)

“Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”” (Galatians 3:11–12, ESV)

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:” (Romans 3:21–22, ESV)

“Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.” (Romans 3:27, ESV)

“Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,” (Romans 4:4–5, ESV)

These verses are just the tip of the iceberg on the subject. The point is simple: we are justified by faith, not by works of the law. It is not our works, but our faith that saves us. ATP charged me of believing in works based righteousness because I believe a person must continue in the faith to be saved. Thus, for him, the idea that a person must continue believing is the equivalent of works based righteousness. This is nonsense. Faith is the antithesis of works based righteousness in Scripture. Our faith produces good works (as we see in 1 Thess 1 and James 2), but this is very different from saying that the call to believe/faith is calling people to works based righteousness. Such an idea is absurd.

 

[StanJ]

I beg to differ. According to the Bible, FAITH IS A WORK!

Faith produces good works. NOT the same.

 

[Zachary]

I'm not going to repeat my refutation constantly for those who won't accept it.

I like it ... gonna have to remember this line! ... 'Tis very apropos mucho of the time.

 

[Zachary]

There is a very distinct difference between
someone taking something away that God has provided for his children,
and his children discarding God's provision.

Amen!

 

[Zachary]

So why are you (Wormwood) depending on works and not grace to keep you saved?

Maybe, just for example, because James kept repeating, "Faith without works is dead!"

I am disappointed, ATP, that your faith is dead ... ergo, you have no salvation.

It should be made clear that co-operating with God by being obedient, etc.
is NOT what the NT is referring to by "works" (good deeds, etc.)

 

[Barrd]

Very simply put, faith without works is dead....and dead faith cannot save anyone.
Abraham was justified by faith....but Abraham's faith did not consist of him sitting around the tent, going "I believe, I believe, I believe"....God told him to leave his father's house, and he packed up and left everything he had to go somewhere he had never been.
He continued to obey God, even to being willing to offer up his son as a human sacrifice...
Abraham had working faith.
The idea that continuing in the faith is a work is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Zachary]

Right, but you're adding loss of salvation to your silly doctrine dude. That is false.
We don't lose salvation, we lose rewards in heaven.

The 100 or so warnings in the NT that I quote ... NEVER speak at all about REWARDS!

Your response: Show me those verses!
My reply: You've already seen them, and rejected them!

Meanwhile, God does have His reasons for NOT making all of these warnings OBVIOUS!
Not sure if I've explained the reasons here before.

 

[Zachary]

God doesn't just give something and then takes it back
and when He does give something especially salvation,
it is given forever without wavering,
otherwise what is the purpose of salvation?
Remember, He saved us while we were yet sinners!

Are you and ATP forever joined at the hip, or just while you're on this forum?

Why did God give us free will? ... One reason was to see:
How much do we appreciate His free gift of grace (unmerited favor).

Jesus said if we love Him, we will keep His commandments.
Does anyone get to heaven, if they don't love Jesus?
Ergo, does anyone get to heaven, if they don't keep His commandments?

I know, you've seen all of this before ... but it just flies way over your head.

 

[Zachary]

“… narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
(eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:14)

Don't see much about easy believism, easy grace, greasy grace, etc. here!
Not much about sittin' back and enjoyin' the ride all the way to heaven.
Didn't Jesus say something about us hating our lives here on earth?

 

[ATP]

I am simply saying that if a person does not have faith, they are not saved. There is no "works based righteousness" in what I am saying (as you previously implied). Faith is not a "work." We do not earn anything before God by believing. Faith gives us access to grace...favor we have not "earned" by "works." Faith is a response to God's work on our behalf. Saying I believe in a system of works based righteousness is nonsense. You may not like my rejection of Calvinistic OSAS, but you cannot say my views are based in "works based righteousness" or "reliance on self" as you have stated in the other thread. Such a notion goes against everything the NT teaches about faith and works and displays a complete lack of understanding of the biblical doctrine of grace.

Nowhere in your post do you reference crowns and rewards.
You're confusing salvation for these things.
We do not win or lose salvation.
We win or lose crowns and rewards Wormwood.

The 100 or so warnings in the NT that I quote ... NEVER speak at all about REWARDS!

Matt 5:12 NIV Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Heb 10:34-35 NIV You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

2 John 1:8-11 NIV Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

Rev 11:18 NIV The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Rev 22:12 NIV “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

“… narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
(eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:14)

Don't see much about easy believism, easy grace, greasy grace, etc. here!
Not much about sittin' back and enjoyin' the ride all the way to heaven.
Didn't Jesus say something about us hating our lives here on earth?

I agree. It's not easy to believe and confess Rom 10:9-10. Are you one of the blinded Zach.

2 Cor 4:4 NIV The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Wormwood]

Nowhere in your post do you reference crowns and rewards.
You're confusing salvation for these things.
We do not win or lose salvation.
We win or lose crowns and rewards Wormwood.

Depends on the verse ATP. Some verses refer to heavenly rewards while others refer to falling from grace and right standing with God. For instance:

“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4–8, ESV)

“Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” (1 Corinthians 10:6–13, ESV)

“Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:10–11, ESV)

“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26–27, ESV)

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”” (2 Peter 2:20–22, ESV)

“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” (Revelation 2:5, ESV)

“Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.” (Revelation 3:4–5, ESV)

None of these passages are speaking about heavenly rewards. They are speaking about salvation. They all imply the danger of "being burned," falling and being destroyed, fearful judgement, worse off than before they were saved, having their lampstand removed, and the importance of persevering so their name is not blotted from the "book of life." All of these warnings are addressed to churches and Christians. To ignore these warnings and imply they have no meaning for Christians is dangerous in my opinion. If God gives us a warning, we should not ignore it or pretend such a danger cannot exist or applies only to losing square footage in a heavenly home. The language can only mean salvation from destruction.

 

[Jun2u]

1 Th. 1:3 is not saying faith is a work. Paul is remembering their works based in faith, labor based in love, and patience based in hope. It is out of the Thessalonians faith, love and hope that these acts and characteristics spring. Paul is not teaching that faith is a work, unless you think Paul contradicts himself. Because I believe the Bible is inspired and without error, I do not think Paul is contradicting himself. The context is very clear that faith itself is not a work. Our good works are products of our faith. That is what Paul is saying. Our faith works, but faith itself is not a work.

I'm sorry for this late response, I've come across this post just a few minutes ago.

Are you serious that it is out of the Thessalonians faith, love and hope that these acts and characteristics sprung? How did you come by to understand that the content is very clear that faith itself is not a work in 1 Th 1:3? The Bible declares in Eph 4:5 that there is only one faith, and in Eph 2:8 declares, for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. God is the only One Who defines His own terms as He is the Author of the Bible. So how can you reconcile these passages with that of 1 Th 1:3 where you have declared faith is not a work?

These verses are just the tip of the iceberg on the subject. The point is simple: we are justified by faith, not by works of the law. It is not our works, but our faith that saves us. ATP charged me of believing in works based righteousness because I believe a person must continue in the faith to be saved. Thus, for him, the idea that a person must continue believing is the equivalent of works based righteousness. This is nonsense. Faith is the antithesis of works based righteousness in Scripture. Our faith produces good works (as we see in 1 Thess 1 and James 2), but this is very different from saying that the call to believe/faith is calling people to works based righteousness. Such an idea is absurd.

It is not as simple as you think. The Bible is a very complex book. Indeed, we are justified by faith but whose faith, Jesus' faith (Ga 2:16) or man's faith? Even Abraham's faith was imputed/accounted (given) to him for righteousness.

I'm afraid you and ATP mean the same thing but go by different routes. One insists that in order to be saved all that is needed is to believe while the other insists on faith, yet unbeknown to both, one is a verb and the other a noun of the same word.

The call to the world is “believe in my Son Jesus”!

I BELIEVE THIS IS A TEST TO MANKIND FOR TODAY! Just as God tested man at the Garden of Eden and man failed miserably.. Again, God tested man through Ancient Israel in the desert for 40 years, and they too failed miserably Jesus was the only One tested that was victorious.

Today, God is testing man once again and he is failing miserably.

IS MANKIND GOING TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS DID ALL THE WORK TO SAVE HIM OR WILL MAN INSIST THAT HE CAN SOMEHOW CONTRIBUTE TO HIS SALVATION BY BELIEVING OR HAVING FAITH IN JESUS?

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

IS MANKIND GOING TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS DID ALL THE WORK TO SAVE HIM OR WILL MAN INSIST THAT HE CAN SOMEHOW CONTRIBUTE TO HIS SALVATION BY BELIEVING OR HAVING FAITH IN JESUS?

As salvation is NOT of works, then yes, man has to believe that Jesus IS our Saviour when God draws them to that point of realization. You can't ask a man to believe something and then tell him he has no choice. Adam and Eve had no choice according to you, but still sinned?

 

[ATP]

None of these passages are speaking about heavenly rewards. They are speaking about salvation. They all imply the danger of "being burned," falling and being destroyed, fearful judgement, worse off than before they were saved, having their lampstand removed, and the importance of persevering so their name is not blotted from the "book of life." All of these warnings are addressed to churches and Christians. To ignore these warnings and imply they have no meaning for Christians is dangerous in my opinion. If God gives us a warning, we should not ignore it or pretend such a danger cannot exist or applies only to losing square footage in a heavenly home. The language can only mean salvation from destruction.

Running the race and enduring through trials is specifically about crowns in heaven. If you deny this then I suggest you pray about it...

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
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Heb 6:4-8 - Repentance here is talking about the sacrificing of animals. Before resurrection the Jews sacrificed an animal once a year on The Day of Atonement I believe to cleanse their sins. Also, how is it possible to crucify the Son all over again in Heb 6:6 when Jesus paid the sin penalty once and for all, being crucified only once. Is God in contradiction..Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV
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1 Cor 10:6-13 - This has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with temptation. Also read 1 Cor 10:13 NIV.
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2 Pet 1:10-11 - This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. Notice the word "promises" in 2 Peter 1:4 NIV. Now notice the word "promise" in the following...Acts 2:38-39 NIV, Gal 3:22 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Phil 1:6 NIV, Heb 4:1 ESV, 2 Peter 2:4-10 NIV, 1 John 2:24-25 NIV, Jude 1:24 NIV.

Also notice in 2 Peter 1:11 NIV it does not say we will NOT be welcome into the eternal kingdom, rather it says if we do these things we will receive a rich welcome. It's only being applied to HOW we will be greeted, not IF we will be greeted.

Lastly, in 2 Pet 1:10 NIV, the word for stumble is translated "ptaió" which means to cause to stumble, to stumble, or to fall, sin, err, transgress. We err every day and fall short of God's glory, because only Jesus is perfect.
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Heb 10:26-27 - Scripture actually says the opposite about believers. Believers no longer keep on sinning because the "truth" which is the seed of God remains in them forever...Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV. Nonbelievers are also known to have the knowledge of truth, but not salvation Rom 1:18-32.

Also, how can there be no sacrifice for sins left when Jesus paid the sin penalty once and for all, being crucified only once. Is God in contradiction..Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV.

Lastly, Heb 10:27 is about God's wrath and the enemies of God, but scripture teaches us that believers are no longer appointed to wrath in which we are no longer enemies of God...

No longer enemies - Nahum 1:2 ESV, Rom 5:10-11 NIV, Rom 11:28 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV

No longer under God's wrath - Job 21:30 NIV, Isa 26:20 NIV, Matt 3:12 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Eph 2:3 NIV, 1 Thess 1:10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9 NIV
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2 Pet 2:20-22 - This passage is referring to escaping the sins of the world, not the blood of Jesus. Just like any man that escapes sin..if he's an alcoholic then he will stop going to the liquor store, but not going to the liquor store doesn't cleanse you of your addiction. Only the free gift of salvation can do that and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The word "escaped" here in Greek is apopheugó, which means to flee from.

The chapter starts off by telling us who the audience is, false prophets and false teachers. 2 Pet 2:1 NIV also explains how they deny Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ are nonbelievers and are of the antichrist spirit Tit 1:15-16 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4-7 NIV.

2 Pet 2:3 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are still condemned, but believers in Christ are no longer condemned by God...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV.

2 Pet 2:8 NIV - This verse clearly separates the righteous from the lawless, and scripture clearly states that believers are no longer condemned as lawless. We are no longer of the antichrist spirit...2 Thess 2:3 NIV, 2 Thess 2:7-9 NIV, Heb 10:17 NIV, 2 Pet 2:7-8 NIV.

2 Pet 2:9 NIV - This verse clearly states that the unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment, but scripture clearly states that nonbelievers are the one's who will experience punishment...Dan 12:1 NIV, Matt 24:21-22 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, John 5:29 NIV, John 6:35-40 NIV *, John 6:54 NIV, John 12:48 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, 1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV, Heb 4:3 ESV, Rev 3:10 NIV.

Scripture also states that believers will not be punished, rather we will be rewarded at the Bema Seat of Christ...Matt 5:12 NIV, Matt 6:20 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV, Phil 3:12-14 NIV, Col 2:18 NIV, 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, 2 Tim 2:5 NIV, 2 Tim 4:8 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV, Rev 3:11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.

2 Pet 2:14 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people never stop sinning, but believers in Christ no longer keep on sinning...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

2 Pet 2:17 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are springs without water, but scripture tells us that believers in Christ are springs WITH water...John 4:13-14 NIV, John 7:38-39 NIV, 1 Pet 3:21 NIV, Rev 7:17 NIV, Rev 21:6 NIV, Rev 22:1-2 NIV, Rev 22:17 NIV.
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Rev 2:5 - Jesus is removing the fallen (church) out of its high place. Candlestick represents a group of people, not the Holy Spirit. For example, it's not saying God will remove the Holy Spirit from your body, rather it's saying God will remove the church as a people from your pride because they chose not to love Rev 2:4 NIV. The Gospel is of love, not religion. It's not talking about individual salvation, rather a group of people..

κινεῖν τήν λυχνίαν τίνος (ἐκκλησίας) ἐκ τοῦ τόπου αὐτῆς, to move a church out of the place which it has hitherto held among the churches; to take it out of the number of churches, remove it altogether, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent; or thee out of the candlestick, the pastor from the church, either by persecution or by death; or else the church, and church state itself, signified by a candlestick;

To be victorious, one would have to believe and trust in Jesus Christ as their savior Rom 10:9-10 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV. Many will not believe that Jesus died for all their sins. Are you in that group Wormwood? Have you believed and confessed...

Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
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Rev 3:4-5 - Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

And how are we victorious brother? By BELIEVING...

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

- ATP

 

[Zachary]

Depends on the verse ATP.
Some verses refer to heavenly rewards while others refer to falling from grace and right standing with God.

And there are those NT verses about "the crown of life",
which can easily be proven by NT Scriptures to be referring to "the crown of (eternal) life".
People like ATP would never believe 'em ... so I hope he doesn't ask to see 'em!
Hey, that rhymes (sorta).

 

[ATP]

And there are those NT verses about "the crown of life",
which can easily be proven by NT Scriptures to be referring to "the crown of (eternal) life".
People like ATP would never believe 'em ... so I hope he doesn't ask to see 'em!
Hey, that rhymes (sorta).

The one who believes and confesses hath eternal life..

Rom 10:9-10 NIV, John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV.

Unfortunately, many will not believe. Please do not be in that group Zach. - ATP

 

[ATP]

Perseverance of the saints is what scripture teaches. If you disagree I suggest you pray about it...

James 1:12 NIV Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[Jun2u]

As salvation is NOT of works, then yes, man has to believe that Jesus IS our Saviour when God draws them to that point of realization. You can't ask a man to believe something and then tell him he has no choice. Adam and Eve had no choice according to you, but still sinned?

Remember, the command was “the wages of sin is death”. By disobedience, Adam and Eve died a physical death and spiritual death. God said He created everything good including Adam and Eve. God knew however, that they would sin so He planed a salvation before the foundation of the world to save some people by having His only Son die, an equivalent death for eternity

Adam and Eve could have lived forever if only they obeyed God. Why good/perfect beings disobeyed...I don't know. Or, is it because man is desperately wicked?

I guess you have not understood the gist of my question from my previous post and also because of your many reasons of presuppositions, otherwise it would have occurred to you that God said, “there is none righteous no not one, there is none that seeks after God

Seeing how you disguise your questions and responses and I believe I've witnessed to you the true Gospel, please don't be surprised if you don't hear from me here on out.

You are in the market place, so to speak, and you are not helping out that is commanded of you to go into all the world and preach the Gospel.

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

Remember, the command was “the wages of sin is death”. By disobedience, Adam and Eve died a physical death and spiritual death. God said He created everything good including Adam and Eve. God knew however, that they would sin so He planed a salvation before the foundation of the world to save some people by having His only Son die, an equivalent death for eternity

Adam and Eve could have lived forever if only they obeyed God. Why good/perfect beings disobeyed...I don't know. Or, is it because man is desperately wicked?

I guess you have not understood the gist of my question from my previous post and also because of your many reasons of presuppositions, otherwise it would have occurred to you that God said, “there is none righteous no not one, there is none that seeks after God

Seeing how you disguise your questions and responses and I believe I've witnessed to you the true Gospel, please don't be surprised if you don't hear from me here on out.

You are in the market place, so to speak, and you are not helping out that is commanded of you to go into all the world and preach the Gospel.

You're now quoting Rom 6:23 OUT of context. The closest to that in the OT would be Ezek 18:20, which is also NOT in context of Adam and Eve.
Yes, His plan of salvation was before creation, but it was for the world, John 3:16, and for ALL sin, Rom 6:10, Heb 9:28, & 1 Peter 3:18.
Jesus says in His final revelation in Rev 22:17; ....whosoever WILL. Not whoever I decide will.

Yes Paul wrote that in Rom 3:10, but he was actually quoting Eccl 7:20. On our own, we do not seek God, but the Father DOES draw us to the Son and WE either accept or reject Him as Paul teaches in Rom 10:8-10. The fact is I DO understand, which is why I responded to you. Not my problem if you don't like the answers, but that is always how darkness responds to light.

I have been in this world far longer than you have, but this is NOT a contest. God will judge me, and you...