5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation
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Well, IMO, they played a large part in contributing to your eisegeting what you already felt, as I pointed out to you initially, but like I said I'm not going to repeat my refutation constantly for those who won't accept it.The Barrd said:
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
StanJ said:
I'm sorry this response is late in coming, the reason is I couldn't remember the scripture references I wanted to convey however, I did respond but put it in the wrong topic and thread. I suppose this is why I never did get a response or perhaps, you were just busy.
The term “NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD” which you supported with scriptures is a true saying. However, I believe Jesus meant that no man has seen God in His Glory, that is in His spirit essence. For if we see God in His full glory, we will surely die.
Look at the example Moses experienced at Mount Sinai. Moses saw only the back edge of God and his face did shine that he had to cover his head for the Jews feared to look at him.
In fact, if Jesus was not speaking about the Glory of God, otherwise the Bible will contain contradictions and we know there are no contradictions in the Bible, for God is the Author of the Bible and He does not lie.
This can be proven in Ge 32:22-32 where Jacob wrestled with a man at the River Jabbok.
Ge 32:30 reads:
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
As we read Ge 32:30, we are assured that Jesus was speaking about the Glory of God stipulated in John 1:18, 3:13, 6:46, and 1John 4:12.
It is not a matter whether I believe what Jesus said rather whether the Holy Spirit opens my spiritual eyes to truths.
To God Be The Glory
In the context that Jesus said it, it meant EXACTLY what He said. No need for added thought.Jun2u said:
Moses saw a burning bush, but indeed the presence of God behind that manifestation was enough to affect him physically.
Jacob wrestled with a physical manifestation of God, so that's what he saw. It was afterwards that he realized it was God in a fleshly form.
This manifestation happened many times in the OT. Some scholars say that manifestation was in the likeness of Jesus, but I don't see that anywhere in scripture.
It's a matter of whether you believe and accept ALL the Bible, and not just one or three scriptures that you use to support your POV.
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. BTW, scholars call the manifestation of God a "theophony".StanJ said:
To God Be The Glory
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen
Moses saw God, he just couldnt look upon His face. Now because of what Christ has done, we can.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen
Moses saw God, he just couldnt look upon His face. Now because of what Christ has done, we can.
This would be accurate, but I've never read anyone who used it. In a very narrow sense, I would agree.Jun2u said:
If we can lose our salvation, then why did John see his name written on the wall in the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:14 NIV
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
ATP said:
That's a true statement, ATP. And, how can a saved person lose his salvation if Christ lives in him?
That's an impossibility!
Ga 2:20 reads:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
To God Be The Glory
and if neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:38-39,Jun2u said:
how is it possible to be thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death Rev 20:14.
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
The only thing to do for the NON-OSASers, I suppose is to pray and ask God to give them wisdom and to change their hearts.ATP said:
This is a word that people who support OSAS hang onto with all their might. Apostasism does not mean one loses salvation, but it DOES happen. In that case, salvation is NOT secure from our own decisions and thoughts. When the Bible says no one can spate us from the love of God, that is secure, if used properly in context. Heb 6:4-6 is also true when used in proper context.Jun2u said:
If their was no need for perseverance, many scriptures would not be required that tell us to persevere, including what Jesus stated.
Wormwood
Chaps
If I say, "No one can take the hamburger away from my child" then I am powerfully affirming that the lunch I have given to my child is theirs and I will prevent anyone from robbing them of it. However, what I am not saying is that my child cannot throw the hamburger I have given them away. There is a very distinct difference between someone taking something away that God has provided for his children, and his children discarding God's provision. These are two very different ideas that should carelessly joined as if being robbed/having something taken or discarding something/giving something away are synonymous. This verse is just simply not teaching what OSAS adherents are asserting. The language simply does not permit it.
This one made me smile....as it happens one of my kids would always try to throw her hamburger away, if I bought her a hamburger "Happy Meal". She didn't like the greasy taste.Wormwood said:
She much preferred chicken mcnuggets....
I'm sure that our Father is just as frustrated with us when we throw His precious gift of salvation away.
I guess you just brought back some memories...
Sorry! Carry on!
Wormwood
Chaps
Wormwood
Chaps
Wormwood
Chaps
Faith is not a work. The idea that a person must continue to follow Jesus and trust in him is the very definition of depending on Jesus rather than self.
Right, but you're adding loss of salvation to your silly doctrine dude. That is false. We don't lose salvation, we lose rewards in heaven.Wormwood said:
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