• Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

J

Johann

Guest
-> Everyone goes to Heaven.
Wrong-

The prolific author and Eastern orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart has just released a new book that covers a very old topic: Universalism, or the belief that all creatures will definitely be saved.

In his new book That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation, Hart argues that eventually all people (which may include fallen angels, though Hart doesn’t explicitly come out and say it) will spend eternity with God in heaven. That’s because an eternal hell is supposedly so unjust that if it were an essential part of Christian doctrine it would be (in Hart’s words) “proof that Christianity should be dismissed as a self-evidently morally obtuse and logically incoherent faith.” (As an aside, my colleague Karlo Broussard has done some great work showing hell is not unjust.)


The possibility that hell is empty is not a twenty-first century novelty. In the third century, the ecclesial writer Origen argued for apokatastasis, or a “restoration” that would unite all things, including unrepentant sinners, to God. This would seem to rule out the possibility that anyone would spend an eternity in hell, though modern commenters are divided over the implications of Origen’s theology on this question. According to Bible scholar Richard Bauckham:

Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of eternal torment in hell. Here and there, outside the theological mainstream, were some who believed that the wicked would be finally annihilated. . . . Even fewer were the advocates of universal salvation . . . though these few included some major theologians of the early church.


The Catholic Church condemned universalism at the regional council of Orange in 543, though a few theologians still held out hope for all creatures to be saved. This uniformity of thought began to change, however, with the rise of denominations like the Universalist Church of America (which exists today under the name Unitarian Universalism).

Most Christian universalists like Hart agree that hell is real and even believe that some or many people will go there. But from their perspective hell is a temporary “purgatory-like” condition and the Bible’s references to it being “eternal” only mean hell is a temporary punishment that the damned face in “the age to come” because the Greek word for eternity (aionion) can also mean “age” (Hart even refers to hell as “the purifying flames of the Age to come”).

As I’ve shown in my engagements with others who dispute the eternal aspect of hell, the endless nature of hell is quite obvious from the biblical texts. Given the strength of the Catholic Church’s case, universalists can’t just claim that the punishments of hell might not be permanent. To be convincing, they need to show positive evidence that all people will eventually be saved. When it comes to providing positive evidence, universalists usually cite biblical passages that, from their perspective, describe God effecting the salvation of every single person.

Hart seems puzzled, though, that these passages were not given more attention by theologians throughout the Church’s history, noting “how odd it is that for at least fifteen centuries such passages have been all but lost behind a veil as thin as the one that can be woven from those three or four deeply ambiguous verses that seem (and only seem) to threaten eternal torments for the wicked.”

But perhaps that’s because these passages don’t teach that everyone will be saved. Instead, they express the hope that anyone can be saved.

In 1 Timothy 2:4, for example, St. Paul says that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But God also desires that we not sin, and yet we still do. God desires the good for all of his creatures, but because he has also given human beings and angels the gift of free will, it follows that God will allow us to enjoy or suffer the consequence of this good gift, even if it means eternal separation from him.

Although Hart admits he doesn’t like “reducing biblical theology to concentrated distillates (prooftexts)” he proceeds to do just that by listing nearly a dozen verses, including their original Greek and Hart’s own rendering of them from his own strange, overly-literal translation of the Bible. Unfortunately, his translation doesn’t offer much in terms of exegesis or understanding of these crucial texts.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:22 Paul says, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive,” but this doesn’t mean that through Christ all people shall be brought to eternal life. What it means is that all who are “in Christ” (a phrase Paul often uses for the saved or elect) shall be brought to eternal life. This logic also explains Romans 5:18, wherein Paul says, “As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”

This refers to life for all believers, or those who are in Christ. We know this because in the previous verse Paul says, “If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.” This is talking about the salvation of all believers, not the salvation of all people. Jesus himself says that he will “draw all men to himself” (John 12:32), but that doesn’t mean that people can’t reject him even after being so drawn. In this passage Jesus also foreshadows his own crucifixion, which may mean that all people will have their sins atoned for on the cross but the grace that Christ accrues for them may not be applied to their souls if they choose to reject it.

In other words, Christ draws all men to himself and he died for every single person, offering them the gift of eternal life. But each person still has a choice, and some people will tragically refuse to accept Christ’s mercy and salvation. That is why the Church prays for the soul of anyone who has perished: because God is “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).

If Hart’s universalism is true, then those who reject the gospel would cease to be “the lost” Jesus came to save (Luke 19:10) and become instead “the delayed,” who just have to wait a little longer for the heavenly rewards they rejected in life.

The evangelist who foolishly thinks universalism will make it easier to preach the gospel will see that without the “bad news” the “good news” isn’t taken seriously. On this view, Christianity becomes a faith that seeks to merely make “heaven on earth,” and by that point it’s nothing more than secular humanism playing dress-up on Sundays.

Contrary to Hart’s assertion, it is not the presence of hell that makes Christianity a “morally obtuse and logically incoherent faith”— it is its absence.

do-all-people-go-to-heaven

yes?
J.
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,801
5,941
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since Harold is LGBTQ, he avoids Scripture like PLAGUE!

1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann
J

Johann

Guest
Since Harold is LGBTQ, he avoids Scripture like PLAGUE!

1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:9 not inherit the kingdom. The kingdom is the spiritual sphere of salvation where God rules as king over all who belong to him by faith (see notes on Matt. 5:3, 10).

All believers are in that spiritual kingdom, yet are waiting to enter into the full inheritance of it in the age to come. People who are characterized by these iniquities are not saved (1 Cor. 6:10).

See notes on 1 John 3:9–10. While believers can and do commit these sins, they do not characterize them as an unbroken life pattern. When they do, it demonstrates that the person is not in God’s kingdom.

True believers who do sin, resent that sin and seek to gain the victory over it (cf. Rom. 7:14–25). sexually immoral. All who indulge in sexual immorality, but particularly unmarried persons. idolaters. Those who worship any false god or follow any false religious system. adulterers. Married persons who indulge in sexual acts outside their marriage. men who practice homosexuality. As the esv footnote indicates, these two terms in Greek refer to those who exchange and corrupt normal male-female sexual roles and relations. Transvestism, sex changes, and other gender perversions are included (cf. Gen. 1:27; Deut. 22:5). Those whom some translations refer to as “sodomites” or “effeminate” are so-called because the sin of male-male sex dominated the city of Sodom (Gen. 18:20; 19:4–5). This sinful perversion is condemned always, in any form, by Scripture (cf. Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:26–27; 1 Tim. 1:10).

1 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:10 thieves . . . greedy. Both are guilty of the same basic sin of covetousness. Those who are greedy desire what belongs to others; thieves actually take it. revilers. People who try to destroy others with words. swindlers. Extortioners and embezzlers who steal indirectly, taking unfair advantage of others for their own financial gain.

1 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:11 some of you. Though not all Christians have been guilty of all those particular sins, every Christian is equally an ex-sinner, since Christ came to save sinners (cf. Matt. 9:13; Rom. 5:20). Some who used to have those patterns of sinful life were falling into those old sins again, and needed reminding that if they went all the way back to live as they used to, they were not going to inherit eternal salvation, because it would indicate that they never were saved (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17). washed. Refers to new life, through spiritual cleansing and regeneration (cf. John 3:3–8; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10; Titus 3:5). sanctified. This results in new behavior, which a transformed life always produces. Sin’s total domination is broken and replaced by a new pattern of obedience and holiness. Though not perfection, this is a new direction (see Rom. 6:17–18, 22). justified. This refers to a new standing before God, in which the Christian is clothed in Christ’s righteousness. In his death, the believer’s sins were put to his account and he suffered for them, so that his righteousness might be put to an account, so that we might be blessed for it (Rom. 3:26; 4:22–25; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:8–9; 1 Pet. 3:18). by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the agent of salvation’s transformation (cf. John 3:3–5).

MacArthur
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

Johann

Guest
1 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:9 not inherit the kingdom. The kingdom is the spiritual sphere of salvation where God rules as king over all who belong to him by faith (see notes on Matt. 5:3, 10).

All believers are in that spiritual kingdom, yet are waiting to enter into the full inheritance of it in the age to come. People who are characterized by these iniquities are not saved (1 Cor. 6:10).

See notes on 1 John 3:9–10. While believers can and do commit these sins, they do not characterize them as an unbroken life pattern. When they do, it demonstrates that the person is not in God’s kingdom.

True believers who do sin, resent that sin and seek to gain the victory over it (cf. Rom. 7:14–25). sexually immoral. All who indulge in sexual immorality, but particularly unmarried persons. idolaters. Those who worship any false god or follow any false religious system. adulterers. Married persons who indulge in sexual acts outside their marriage. men who practice homosexuality. As the esv footnote indicates, these two terms in Greek refer to those who exchange and corrupt normal male-female sexual roles and relations. Transvestism, sex changes, and other gender perversions are included (cf. Gen. 1:27; Deut. 22:5). Those whom some translations refer to as “sodomites” or “effeminate” are so-called because the sin of male-male sex dominated the city of Sodom (Gen. 18:20; 19:4–5). This sinful perversion is condemned always, in any form, by Scripture (cf. Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:26–27; 1 Tim. 1:10).

1 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:10 thieves . . . greedy. Both are guilty of the same basic sin of covetousness. Those who are greedy desire what belongs to others; thieves actually take it. revilers. People who try to destroy others with words. swindlers. Extortioners and embezzlers who steal indirectly, taking unfair advantage of others for their own financial gain.

1 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:11 some of you. Though not all Christians have been guilty of all those particular sins, every Christian is equally an ex-sinner, since Christ came to save sinners (cf. Matt. 9:13; Rom. 5:20). Some who used to have those patterns of sinful life were falling into those old sins again, and needed reminding that if they went all the way back to live as they used to, they were not going to inherit eternal salvation, because it would indicate that they never were saved (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17). washed. Refers to new life, through spiritual cleansing and regeneration (cf. John 3:3–8; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10; Titus 3:5). sanctified. This results in new behavior, which a transformed life always produces. Sin’s total domination is broken and replaced by a new pattern of obedience and holiness. Though not perfection, this is a new direction (see Rom. 6:17–18, 22). justified. This refers to a new standing before God, in which the Christian is clothed in Christ’s righteousness. In his death, the believer’s sins were put to his account and he suffered for them, so that his righteousness might be put to an account, so that we might be blessed for it (Rom. 3:26; 4:22–25; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:8–9; 1 Pet. 3:18). by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the agent of salvation’s transformation (cf. John 3:3–5).

MacArthur
2 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:14 not be unequally yoked. An illustration taken from OT prohibitions to Israel regarding the work-related joining together of two different kinds of livestock (see note on Deut. 22:10).

By this analogy, Paul taught that it is not right to join together in common spiritual enterprise with those who are not of the same nature (unbelievers).

It is impossible under such an arrangement for things to be done to God’s glory. with unbelievers.

Christians are not to be bound together with non-Christians in any spiritual enterprise or relationship that would be detrimental to the Christian’s testimony within the body of Christ (see notes on 1 Cor. 5:9–13; cf. 1 Cor. 6:15–18; 10:7–21; James 4:4; 1 John 2:15).

This was especially important for the Corinthians because of the threats from the false teachers and the surrounding pagan idolatry. But this command does not mean believers should end all associations with unbelievers; that would defy the purpose for which God saved believers and left them on earth (cf. Matt. 28:19–20; 1 Cor. 9:19–23). The implausibility of such religious alliances is made clear in 2 Cor. 6:14b–17.

2 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:15 Belial. An ancient name for Satan, the utterly worthless one (see note on Deut. 13:13). This contrasts sharply with Jesus Christ, the worthy One with whom believers are to be in fellowship.

2 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:16 agreement . . . temple of God with idols? The temple of God (true Christianity) and idols (idolatrous, demonic false religions) are utterly incompatible (cf. 1 Sam. 4–6; 2 Kings 21:1–15; Ezek. 8). we are the temple of the living God.

Believers individually are spiritual houses (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1) in which the Spirit of Christ dwells (see notes on 1 Cor. 3:16–17; 6:19–20; Eph. 2:22). as God said. Paul supported his statement by referring to a blend of OT texts (Lev. 26:11–12; Jer. 24:7; 31:33; Ezek. 37:26–27; Hos. 2:2–3).

2 CORINTHIANS—NOTE ON 6:17 Paul drew from Isa. 52:11 and elaborated on the command to be spiritually separated. It is not only irrational and sacrilegious but disobedient to be bound together with unbelievers. When believers are saved, they are to disengage themselves from all forms of false religion and make a clean break from all sinful habits and old idolatrous patterns (see notes on Eph. 5:6–12; 2 Tim. 2:20–23; cf. Rev. 18:4). be separate. This is a command for believers to be as Christ was (Heb. 7:26).

Yup John-fully agree here.
J.
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,801
5,941
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Jack,

Avoiding scripture like the plague? Hm, have you seen my website? Specifically this section: https://jesus-saves-all.com/LGBTQ.htm

Here I'll quote myself since I already covered this verse here:


1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

CORRECTED: 1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice sodomy aka bestiality aka the sin of having sexual intercourse with an animal.



As Christian Universalist know with how many mistakes there are in translation of “hell” rather than Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus, this line “men who practice homosexuality” is a mistranslation!

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Members of Christ



perform homosexual acts, ἀρσενοκοῖται (arsenokoitai) Strong's 733: A male engaging in same-gender sexual activity; a sodomite, pederast. From arrhen and koite; a sodomite.

Strong’s mistranslation! Let’s not forget that James Strong (1822–1894) is a mere human sinner who makes mistakes like the rest of us. It’s not all “male-to-male sexual activity” but rather “arrhen and koite, sodomite”.



Definition of PEDERAST

Pederest = a man who desires or engages in sexual activity with a boy.

It’s a repeat of Leviticus 18:22 above, where a “boy” refers to a male child. Sexual activity with any child, male or female, homosexual or heterosexual is a sin! That’s what’s being condemned.



Definition of SODOMITE

Sodomite = someone who practices sodomy

Sodomy = copulation with an animal

Definition of COPULATION

Copulation = to engage in sexual intercourse



Like I mentioned in Exodus 22:19 above, Sodomy is the sin of bestiality, having sexual intercourse with an animal, a dishonorable passion!
Your smokescreen noted, but tell us your qualifications for declaring all of our Bibles to be wrong. I doubt you have any.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Hi Johann

The unbelievers are trapped due to their sin. As such, it's good for Christians to avoid sin, not to be saved, as that's by faith alone, but rather because we are already saved.

Essentially, the whole argument with avoiding the sin of idolatry, avoiding the worshipping of Satan, or Belial, Deut. 13:13 1 Sam. 4–6; 2 Kings 21:1–15; Ezek. 8 like you mention. I agree with. The thing is... what does this have to do about denying Christian Universalism?

Because under Eternal Concious Torment, for the idolaters, the Satanist, the Belialist, guess what? They're still trapped in their sin, their worship, their idolatry. Their faith in Christ frees them from sin, and the LORD desires to free all the prisoners! Like you say, to have all believers made into temples of God, with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit 1 Cor. 3:16–17; 6:19–20; Eph. 2:22)

Jonah 2:8 ESV Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love.

Look at that, we see that the "forsake" here is not a permanent state of forsaking, but rather, a temporary relinquishing


forsake
יַעֲזֹֽבוּ׃ (ya·‘ă·zō·ḇū)
Strong's 5800: To loosen, relinquish, permit

Because the love of God [His] loving devotion. חַסְדָּ֖ם (ḥas·dām) is steadfast and it never fails. Thus all shall become believers in Christ and be saved!
I don't hold to Universalism -that ALL shall be saved -in the end.
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,147
7,399
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Not according to the word of God...everyone will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven....

Mathew 7.

[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
[27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
[28] And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
[29] For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes


John 3:3-8​

King James Version​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,801
5,941
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My boss called me. I type this while speaking to him on the phone. Though he knows who he claims is the “Smartest Person in Academia”, this person is very humble. We relate this to our financial research, where those who flaunt and brag about their wealth are usually poorer than those who live modestly and have a lot of savings.



```Proverbs 13:7 ISV One person pretends to be wealthy, but has nothing; another pretends to be poor, yet is rich.. ```



Strong’s 1952. וְה֣וֹן (wə·hō·wn) means wealth, but also means sufficiency. An inflection of this, riches, הוֹן (hon), is seen in



```Psalm 119:14. ISV I find joy in the path of your decrees, as if I owned all kinds of riches. ```



What are riches? We, are the treasures of God. The LORD owns all of us as His riches. And He wishes to purify us, to remove our sins, our impurities. His grace is our sufficiency. All shall be convinced to believe in Christ and thus be saved. We are all the Lord’s savings.
What is your religion? Christians don't just pick the verses they like!
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,801
5,941
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Rita

[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;" as Matthew 7 reveals. But for how long will they be unable to enter the kingdom of Heaven. We see this length of time will depend on how long they remains as one solely born of Adam. One who has not yet been born of Christ. But surely, all shall be born of Christ.

It's not merely saying "Lord, Lord" to enter the kingdom of Heaven. One may claim to be Christian outwardly, verbally, but if they do not believe in Christ, then they are not saved, no matter how many times they repeat the word "Lord"

Colossians 3:11 KJBWhere there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


I agree with John 3:3-8 KJB, specifically, how a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God, they must believe in Christ to be saved. Therefore, everyone will eventually be born again, because, everyone has been born at first. All humans have been phyiscally born of Adam and thus all humans will then be spiritually born of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJB For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God bless!
If you are wrong you may be leading people to Hell fire and you will be with them!
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,801
5,941
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Jack. I am a Christian, thus I use Bible verses. I don't see what the problem here is?
"Christians don't just pick the verses they like!"

And that's exactly what you are doing!
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,801
5,941
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jack my friend, have you not seen my comments that I have provided for your verses? Whatever verses that I choose for my daily entries are ones that I just so happen to choose. So I posted my commentary on the Matthew 25:46 verse since I believe that's one you would suggest. God bless!
Doesn't it bother that you may be leading your loved ones to Hell with you?
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,147
7,399
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Hi Rita

[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;" as Matthew 7 reveals. But for how long will they be unable to enter the kingdom of Heaven. We see this length of time will depend on how long they remains as one solely born of Adam. One who has not yet been born of Christ. But surely, all shall be born of Christ.

It's not merely saying "Lord, Lord" to enter the kingdom of Heaven. One may claim to be Christian outwardly, verbally, but if they do not believe in Christ, then they are not saved, no matter how many times they repeat the word "Lord"

Colossians 3:11 KJBWhere there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


I agree with John 3:3-8 KJB, specifically, how a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God, they must believe in Christ to be saved. Therefore, everyone will eventually be born again, because, everyone has been born at first. All humans have been phyiscally born of Adam and thus all humans will then be spiritually born of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJB For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God bless!
I have posted the word of God.

Not everyone will see the Kingdom of God...you have added to God’s word.

They must be birthed in the Spirit, then they are saved...it says you must be “ Born Again”...which is an act of God ....

John 3:8​


“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,801
5,941
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Personally, I think there will be LOTS of Universalists burning in Hell "forever and ever".
 

RayaJade

New Member
Aug 19, 2023
6
11
3
68
Kernersville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christian Universalism attests to the agape love, righteousness, wisdom, justice, mercy, compassion, omnipotence of God. God who will have all to be saved, is able to accomplish this. He has all power and He is able to bring all into subjection of His perfect sovereign will in His own time. God bless.


1 Timothy 4:10

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers.



Eventually all of creation is to experience this deliverance as the apostle Paul tells us in Romans 8.


18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, [n]in ** hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. NAS

**hope=elpis=confidence, expectation


Ephesians 1

7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His **will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the **summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory.


**Will-Thelema=resolve, the will of God which must be done, what one wishes or has determined what shall be done (Greek Hebrew Word Study Bible and Strongs)

**Summing up = anakephalaioomai-to gather together again in one, to reunite in or under one head


**Counsel- Boule-will, intention, decree, decision, plan
 
Last edited:

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,147
7,399
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I agree Ritajanice my friend, when you say that a person must be Born Again, where they must be birthed in the Spirit to be saved.

You say that "not everyone will see the Kingdom of God", yet let us see what scripture tells us:
Phil. 2:10:11 "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

I said no such thing @Harold ....I have quoted the “ Living “ word of God.
Shows us that all in Heaven, in Earth, will give glory to God the Father. How can a person truly give glory to God if they are not Born Again? Will not all people have the Holy Spirit in order to praise God? There is nothing praiseworthy about those who still have sin and eternal concious torment and annihlationism are doctrines where a person's sin remains unclean. Only in Christian Universalism are all the world's sins truly removed! This is God's desire. God bless :D
It shows no such thing, @Harold ....it’s showing what imo and with respect....what “ YOU” say....

Will not all people have the Holy Spirit in order to praise God.....show me where it says what “ you” say in God’s word.....?

God’s word says......again, please don’t add your own words....they count for nothing.


1Timothy.

3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God,a 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be savedb and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
John 3:3

King James Version​

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
We see here
We see your words @Harold ....all of “ your “ wishes and desires.....I too would love to see every single person “ birthed in the Spirit “......Born Again.......unfortunately....it’s not my word nor your word that stands....only God’s word.

If you want to continue quoting scripture and adding your own words to it, then feel free to do so.....I’ve quoted the word of God....and 100% don’t agree with your understanding of God’s word...enjoy the rest of your day......
 
Last edited:

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christian Universalism attests to the agape love, righteousness, wisdom, justice, mercy, compassion, omnipotence of God. God who will have all to be saved, is able to accomplish this. He has all power and He is able to bring all into subjection of His perfect sovereign will in His own time. God bless.
Great post, thanks.
Welcome to the forum.
Watch for posts from @Patrick1966 @Chadrho @Hillsage and myself @St. SteVen
 
  • Like
Reactions: Patrick1966

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christian Universalism attests to the agape love, righteousness, wisdom, justice, mercy, compassion, omnipotence of God.
Please share more about your view of the justice of God.
Tell us how justice works if everyone is saved in the end. Thanks.
(this is not a rebuttal, pretty sure we are in agreement)
Maybe I should launch a topic and invite you.
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,801
5,941
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Satan LOVES Universalism!

Revelation 21
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
 

GRACE ambassador

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2021
2,819
2,029
113
73
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Christian Universalism attests to the agape love, righteousness, wisdom, justice, mercy, compassion, omnipotence of God.
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In The
Lord Jesus Christ And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided ( I and II ). PG rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, Mercy And Love

PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png
 

RayaJade

New Member
Aug 19, 2023
6
11
3
68
Kernersville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States