6 Days Of 15 Billion Years?

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bud02

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Aug 14, 2010
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I found this interesting and just wanted to share it with others that want an answer to this question, from a biblical scientific perspective.

link http://www.aish.com/...m/48951136.html

C/P from link

picuniverse.jpg

One of the most obvious perceived contradictions between Torah and science is the age of the universe. Is it billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data? When we add up the generations of the Bible, we come to 5700-plus years. Whereas, data from the Hubbell telescope or from the land based telescopes in Hawaii, indicate the age at about 15 billion years. Let me clarify right at the start. The world may be only some 6000 years old. God could have put the fossils in the ground and juggled the light arriving from distant galaxies to make the world appear to be billions of years old. There is absolutely no way to disprove this claim. God being infinite could have made the world that way. There is another possible approach that also agrees with the ancient commentators’ description of God and nature. The world may be young and old simultaneously. In the following I consider this latter option.

In trying to resolve this apparent conflict, it's interesting to look historically at trends in knowledge, because absolute proofs are not forthcoming. But what is available is to look at how science has changed its picture of the world, relative to the unchanging picture of the Torah. (I refuse to use modern Biblical commentary because it already knows modern science, and is always influenced by that knowledge. The trend becomes to bend the Bible to match the science.)

So the only data I use as far as Biblical commentary goes is ancient commentary. That means the text of the Bible itself (3300 years ago), the translation of the Torah into Aramaic by Onkelos (100 CE), the Talmud (redacted about the year 500 CE), and the three major Torah commentators. There are many, many commentators, but at the top of the mountain there are three, accepted by all: Rashi (11th century France), who brings the straight understanding of the text, Maimonides (12th century Egypt), who handles the philosophical concepts, and then Nachmanides (13th century Spain), the earliest of the Kabbalists.

This ancient commentary was finalized long before Hubbell was a gleam in his great-grandparent's eye. So there's no possibility of Hubbell or any other modern scientific data influencing these concepts.

[size="+1"]A universe with a beginning.[/size]

In 1959, a survey was taken of leading American scientists. Among the many questions asked was, "What is your concept of the age of the universe?" Now, in 1959, astronomy was popular, but cosmology -- the deep physics of understanding the universe -- was just developing. The response to that survey was recently republished in Scientific American -- the most widely read science journal in the world. Two-thirds of the scientists gave the same answer: "Beginning? There was no beginning. Aristotle and Plato taught us 2400 years ago that the universe is eternal. Oh, we know the Bible says 'In the beginning.' That's a nice story, but we sophisticates know better. There was no beginning."

After 3000 years of arguing, science has come to agree with the Torah.​
That was 1959. In 1965, Penzias and Wilson discovered the echo of the Big Bang in the black of the sky at night, and the world paradigm changed from a universe that was eternal to a universe that had a beginning. After 3000 years of arguing, science has come to agree with the Torah.

[size="+1"]It all starts from Rosh Hashana. [/size]

How long ago did the "beginning" occur? Was it, as the Bible might imply, 5700-plus years, or was it the 15 billions of years that's accepted by the scientific community?

The first thing we have to understand is the origin of the Biblical calendar. The Jewish year is figured by adding up the generations since Adam. Additionally, there are six days leading up to the creation to Adam. These six days are significant as well.

Now where do we make the zero point? On Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year, upon blowing the shofar, the following sentence is said: "Hayom Harat Olam -- today is the birthday of the world."

This verse might imply that Rosh Hashana commemorates the creation of the universe. But it doesn't. Rosh Hashana commemorate the creation of the Neshama, the soul of human life. We start counting our 5700-plus years from the creation of the soul of Adam.

We have a clock that begins with Adam, and the six days are separate from this clock. The Bible has two clocks.

That might seem like a modern rationalization, if it were not for the fact that Talmudic commentaries 1500 years ago, brings this information. In the Midrash (Vayikra Rabba 29:1), an expansion of the Talmud, all the Sages agree that Rosh Hashana commemorates the soul of Adam, and that the Six Days of Genesis are separate.

Why were the Six Days taken out of the calendar? Because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis. "There was evening and morning" is an exotic, bizarre, unusual way of describing time.

Once you come from Adam, the flow of time is totally in human terms. Adam and Eve live 130 years before having children! Seth lives 105 years before having children, etc. From Adam forward, the flow of time is totally human in concept. But prior to that time, it's an abstract concept: "Evening and morning." It's as if you're looking down on events from a viewpoint that is not intimately related to them.

[size="+1"]Looking deeper into the text. [/size]

In trying to understand the flow of time here, you have to remember that the entire Six Days is described in 31 sentences. The Six Days of Genesis, which have given people so many headaches in trying to understand science vis-a-vis the Bible, are confined to 31 sentences! At MIT, in the Hayden library, we had about 50,000 books that deal with the development of the universe: cosmology, chemistry, thermodynamics, paleontology, archaeology, the high-energy physics of creation. At Harvard, at the Weidner library, they probably have 200,000 books on these same topics. The Bible gives us 31 sentences. Don't expect that by a simple reading of those sentences you'll know every detail that is held within the text. It's obvious that we have to dig deeper to get the information out.

The idea of having to dig deeper is not a rationalization. The Talmud (Chagiga, ch. 2) tells us that from the opening sentence of the Bible, through the beginning of Chapter Two, the entire text is given in parable form, a poem with a text and a subtext. Now, again, put yourself into the mindset of 1500 years ago, the time of the Talmud. Why would the Talmud think it was parable? You think that 1500 years ago they thought that God couldn't make it all in 6 days? It was a problem for them? We have a problem today with cosmology and scientific data. But 1500 years ago, what's the problem with 6 days for an infinitely powerful God? No problem.

So when the Sages excluded these six days from the calendar, and said that the entire text is parable, it wasn't because they were trying to apologize away what they'd seen in the local museum. There was no local museum. The fact is that a close reading of the text makes it clear that there's information hidden and folded into layers below the surface.

The idea of looking for a deeper meaning in Torah is no different than looking for deeper meaning in science. Just as we look for the deeper readings in science to learn the working of nature, so too we need to look for the deeper readings in Torah. King Solomon in Proverbs 25:11 alluded to this. “A word well spoken is like apples of Gold in a silver dish.” Maimonides in The Guide for the Perplexed interprets this proverb: The silver dish is the literal text of the Torah, as seen from a distance. The apples of gold are the secrets held within the silver dish of the Torah Text. Thousands of years ago we learned that there are subtleties in the Text that expand the meaning way beyond its simple reading. It's those subtleties I want to see.

[size="+1"]Natural history and human history. [/size]

There are early Jewish sources that tell us that the Bible’s calendar is in two-parts (even predating Leviticus Rabba which goes back almost 1500 years and says it explicitly). In the closing speech that Moses makes to the people, he says if you want to see the fingerprint of God in the universe, "consider the days of old, the years of the many generations" (Deut. 32:7) Nachmanides, in the name of Kabbalah, says, "Why does Moses break the calendar into two parts -- 'The days of old, and the years of the many generations?' Because, 'Consider the days of old' is the Six Days of Genesis. 'The years of the many generations' is all the time from Adam forward."

Moses says you can see God's fingerprint on the universe in one of two ways. Look at the phenomenon of the Six Days, and the development of life in the universe which is mind-boggling. Or if that doesn't impress you, then just consider society from Adam forward -- the phenomenon of human history. Either way, you will find the imprint of God.

I recently met in Jerusalem with Professor Leon Lederman, Nobel Prize winning physicist. We were talking science, and as the conversation went on, I said, "What about spirituality, Leon?" And he said to me, "Schroeder, I'll talk science with you, but as far as spirituality, speak to the people across the street, the theologians." But then he continued, and he said, "But I do find something spooky about the people of Israel coming back to the Land of Israel."

Interesting. The first part of Moses' statement, "Consider the days of old" - about the Six Days of Genesis - that didn't impress Prof. Lederman. But the "Years of the many generations" - human history - that impressed him. Prof. Lederman found nothing spooky about the Eskimos eating fish at the Arctic circle. And he found nothing spooky about Greeks eating Musika in Athens. But he finds something real spooky about Jews eating falafel on Jaffa Street. Because it shouldn't have happened. It doesn't make sense historically that the Jews would come back to the Land of Israel. Yet that's what happened.

And that's one of the functions of the Jewish People in the world. To act as a demonstration. We just want people in the world to understand that there is some monkey business going on with history that makes it not all just random. That there's some direction to the flow of history. And the world has seen it through us. It's not by chance that Israel is on the front page of the New York Times more than anyone else.

[size="+1"]What is a "day?" [/size]

Let's jump back to the Six Days of Genesis. First of all, we now know that when the Biblical calendar says 5700-plus years, we must add to that "plus six days."

A few years ago, I acquired a dinosaur fossil that was dated (by two radioactive decay chains) as 150 million years old. My 7-year-old daughter says, "Abba! Dinosaurs? How can there be dinosaurs 150 million years ago, when my Bible teacher says the world isn't even 6000 years old?" So I told her to look in Psalms 90:4. There, you'll find something quite amazing. King David says, "One thousand years in Your (God's) sight are like a day that passes, a watch in the night." Perhaps time is different from the perspective of King David, than it is from the perspective of the Creator. Perhaps time is different.

The Talmud (Chagiga, ch. 2), in trying to understand the subtleties of Torah, analyzes the word "choshech." When the word "choshech" appears in Genesis 1:2, the Talmud explains that it means black fire, black energy, a kind of energy that is so powerful you can't even see it. Two verses later, in Genesis 1:4, the Talmud explains that the same word -- "choshech" -- means darkness, i.e. the absence of light.

Other words as well are not to be understood by their common definitions. For example, "mayim" typically means water. But Maimonides says that in the original statements of creation, the word "mayim" may also mean the building blocks of the universe.

Another example is Genesis 1:5, which says, "There is evening and morning, Day One." That is the first time that a day is quantified: evening and morning. Nachmanides discusses the meaning of evening and morning. Does it mean sunset and sunrise? It would certainly seem to.

But Nachmanides points out a problem with that. The text says "there was evening and morning Day One... evening and morning a second day... evening and morning a third day." Then on the fourth day, the sun is mentioned. Nachmanides says that any intelligent reader can see an obvious problem. How do we have a concept of evening and morning for the first three days if the sun is only mentioned on Day Four? There is a purpose for the sun appearing only on Day Four, so that as time goes by and people understand more about the universe, you can dig deeper into the text.

Nachmanides says the text uses the words "Vayehi Erev" -- but it doesn't mean "there was evening." He explains that the Hebrew letters Ayin, Resh, Bet -- the root of "erev" -- is chaos. Mixture, disorder. That's why evening is called "erev", because when the sun goes down, vision becomes blurry. The literal meaning is "there was disorder." The Torah's word for "morning" -- "boker" -- is the absolute opposite. When the sun rises, the world becomes "bikoret", orderly, able to be discerned. That's why the sun needn't be mentioned until Day Four. Because from erev to boker is a flow from disorder to order, from chaos to cosmos. That's something any scientist will testify never happens in an unguided system. Order never arises from disorder spontaneously and remains orderly. Order always degrades to chaos unless the environment recognizes the order and locks it in to preserve it. There must be a guide to the system. That's an unequivocal statement.

The Torah wants us to be amazed by this flow, starting from a chaotic plasma and ending up with a symphony of life. Day-by-day the world progresses to higher and higher levels. Order out of disorder. It's pure thermodynamics. And it's stated in terminology of 3000 years ago.

[size="+1"]The creation of time. [/size]

Each day of creation is numbered. Yet there is discontinuity in the way the days are numbered. The verse says: "There is evening and morning, Day One." But the second day doesn't say "evening and morning, Day Two." Rather, it says "evening and morning, a second day." And the Torah continues with this pattern: "Evening and morning, a third day... a fourth day... a fifth day... the sixth day." Only on the first day does the text use a different form: not "first day," but "Day One" ("Yom Echad"). Many English translations make the mistake of writing "a first day." That's because editors want things to be nice and consistent. But they throw out the cosmic message in the text! Because there is a qualitative difference, as Nachmanides says, between "one" and "first." One is absolute; first is comparative.

Nachmanides explains that on Day One, time was created. That's a phenomenal insight. Time was created. You can't grab time. You don't even see it. You can see space, you can see matter, you can feel energy, you can see light energy. I understand a creation there. But the creation of time? Eight hundred years ago, Nachmanides attained this insight from the Torah's use of the phrase, "Day One." And that's exactly what Einstein taught us in the Laws of Relativity: that there was a creation, not just of space and matter, but of time itself.

[size="+1"]Einstein's Law of Relativity. [/size]

Looking back in time, a scientist will view the universe as being 15 billion years old. But what is the Bible's view of time? Maybe it sees time differently. And that makes a big difference. Albert Einstein taught us that Big Bang cosmology brings not just space and matter into existence, but that time is part of the nitty gritty. Time is a dimension. Time is affected by your view of time. How you see time depends on where you're viewing it. A minute on the moon goes faster than a minute on the Earth. A minute on the sun goes slower. Time on the sun is actually stretched out so that if you could put a clock on the sun, it would tick more slowly. It's a small difference, but it's measurable and measured.

The flow of time varies one location to another location. Hence the term: the law of relativity.​
If you could ripen oranges on the Sun, they would take longer to ripen. Why? Because time goes more slowly. Would you feel it going more slowly? No, because your biology would be part of the system. If you were living on the Sun, your heart would beat more slowly. Wherever you are, your biology is in synch with the local time. And a minute or an hour where ever you are is exactly a minute or an hour.

If you could look from one system to another, you would see time very differently. Because depending on factors like gravity and velocity, you will perceive time in a way that is very different. The flow of time varies one location to another location. Hence the term: the law of relativity.

Here's an example: One evening we were sitting around the dinner table, and my 11-year-old daughter asked, "How you could have dinosaurs? How you could have billions of years scientifically - and thousands of years Biblically at the same time? So I told her to imagine a planet where time is so stretched out that while we live out two years on Earth, only three minutes will go by on that planet. Now, those places actually exist, they are observed. It would be hard to live there with their conditions, and you couldn't get to them either, but in mental experiments you can do it. Two years are going to go by on Earth, three minutes are going to go by on the planet. So my daughter says, "Great! Send me to the planet. I'll spend three minutes there. I'll do two years worth of homework. I'll come back home in three minutes, and no more homework for two years."

Nice try. Assuming she was age 11 when she left, and her friends were 11. She spends three minutes on the planet and then comes home. (The travel time takes no time.) How old is she when she gets back? Eleven years and 3 minutes. And her friends are 13. Because she lived out 3 minutes while we lived out 2 years. Her friends aged from 11 years to 13 years, while she's 11 years and 3 minutes.

Had she looked down on Earth from that planet, her perception of Earth time would be that everybody was moving very quickly because in one of her minutes, hundreds of thousands of our minutes would pass. Whereas if we looked up, she'd be moving very slowly.

But which is correct? Is it three years? Or three minutes? The answer is both. They're both happening at the same time. That's the legacy of Albert Einstein. It so happens there literally billions of locations in the universe, where if you could put a clock at that location, it would tick so slowly, that from our perspective (if we could last that long) 15 billion years would go by... but the clock at that remote location would tick out six days.

[size="+1"]Time travel and the Big Bang. [/size]

But how does this help to explain the Bible? Because anyway the Talmud and Rashi and Nahmanides (that is the kabala) all say that Six Days of Genesis were six regular 24-hour periods not longer than our work week!

Let's look a bit deeper. The classical Jewish sources say that before the beginning, we don't really know what there is. We can't tell what predates the universe. The Midrash asks the question: Why does the Bible begin with the letter Beit? Because Beit (which is written like a backwards C) is closed in all directions and only open in the forward direction. Hence we can't know what comes before -- only after. The first letter is a Beit - closed in all directions and only open in the forward direction.

Nachmanides expands the statement. He says that although the days are 24 hours each, they contain "kol yemot ha-olam" -- all the ages and all the secrets of the world.

Nachmanides says that before the universe, there was nothing... but then suddenly the entire creation appeared as a minuscule speck. He gives a dimension for the speck: something very tiny like the size of a grain of mustard. And he says that is the only physical creation. There was no other physical creation; all other creations were spiritual. The Nefesh (the soul of animal life) and the Neshama (the soul of human life) are spiritual creations. There's only one physical creation, and that creation was a tiny speck. The speck is all there was. Anything else was God. In that speck was all the raw material that would be used for making everything else. Nachmanides describes the substance as "dak me'od, ein bo mamash" -- very thin, no substance to it. And as this speck expanded out, this substance -- so thin that it has no essence -- turned into matter as we know it.

Nachmanides further writes: "Misheyesh, yitfos bo zman" -- from the moment that matter formed from this substance-less substance, time grabs hold. Not "begins." Time is created at the beginning. But time "grabs hold." When matter condenses, congeals, coalesces, out of this substance so thin it has no essence -- that's when the Biblical clock of the six days starts.

Science has shown that there's only one "substance-less substance" that can change into matter. And that's energy. Einstein's famous equation, E=MC2, tells us that energy can change into matter. And once it changes into matter, time grabs hold.

Nachmanides has made a phenomenal statement. I don't know if he knew the Laws of Relativity. But we know them now. We know that energy -- light beams, radio waves, gamma rays, x-rays -- all travel at the speed of light, 300 million meters per second. At the speed of light, time does not pass. The universe was aging, but time only grabs hold when matter is present. This moment of time before the clock begins for the Bible, lasted about 1/100,000 of a second. A miniscule time. But in that time, the universe expanded from a tiny speck, to about the size of the Solar System. From that moment on we have matter, and time flows forward. The Biblical clock begins here.

Now the fact that the Bible tells us there is "evening and morning Day One" (and not “a first day”) comes to teach us time from a Biblical perspective. Einstein proved that time varies from place to place in the universe, and that time varies from perspective to perspective in the universe. The Bible says there is "evening and morning Day One".

Now if the Torah were seeing time from the days of Moses and Mount Sinai -- long after Adam -- the text would not have written Day One. Because by Sinai, hundreds of thousands of days already passed. There was a lot of time with which to compare Day One. Torah would have said "A First Day." By the second day of Genesis, the Bible says "a second day," because there was already the First Day with which to compare it. You could say on the second day, "what happened on the first day." But as Nahmanides pointed out, you could not say on the first day, "what happened on the first day" because "first" implies comparison -- an existing series. And there was no existing series. Day One was all there was.

Even if the Torah was seeing time from Adam, the text would have said "a first day", because by its own statement there were six days. The Torah says "Day One" because the Torah is looking forward from the beginning. And it says, How old is the universe? Six Days. We'll just take time up until Adam. Six Days. We look back in time, and say the universe is approximately 15 billion years old. But every scientist knows, that when we say the universe is 15 billion years old, there's another half of the sentence that we never say. The other half of the sentence is: The universe is 15 billion years old as seen from the time-space coordinates that we exist in on earth. That's Einstein's view of relativity. But what would those billions of years be as perceived from near the beginning looking forward?

The key is that the Torah looks forward in time, from very different time-space coordinates, when the universe was small. But since then, the universe has expanded out. Space stretches, and that stretching of space totally changes the perception of time.

Imagine in your mind going back billions of years ago to the beginning of time. Now pretend way back at the beginning of time, when time grabs hold, there's an intelligent community. (It's totally fictitious.) Imagine that the intelligent community has a laser, and it's going to shoot out a blast of light, and every second it's going to pulse. Every second --- pulse. Pulse. Pulse. It shoots the light out, and then billions of years later, way far down the time line, we here on Earth have a big satellite dish, and we receive that pulse of light. And on that pulse of light is imprinted (printing information on light is called fiber optics - sending information by light), "I'm sending you a pulse every second." And then a second goes by and the next pulse is sent.

Light travels 300 million meters per second. So the two light pulses are separated by 300 million meters at the beginning. Now they travel through space for billions of years, and they're going to reach the Earth billions of years later. But wait a minute. Is the universe static? No. The universe is expanding. That's the cosmology of the universe. And that does not mean it's expanding into an empty space outside the universe. There's only the universe. There is no space outside the universe. The universe expands by its own space stretching. So as these pulses go through billions of years of traveling, the universe and space are stretching. As space is stretching, what's happening to these pulses? The space between them is also stretching. So the pulses really get further and further apart.

Billions of years later, when the first pulse arrives, we say, "Wow - a pulse!" And written on it is "I'm sending you a pulse every second." You call all your friends, and you wait for the next pulse to arrive. Does it arrive another second later? No! A year later? Maybe not. Maybe billions of years later. Because depending on how much time this pulse of light has traveled through space, will determine the amount of stretching of space between the pulses. That's standard astronomy.

[size="+1"]15 billion or six days?[/size]

Today, we look back in time. We see 15 billion years. Looking forward from when the universe is very small -- billions of times smaller -- the Torah says six days. They both may be correct.

What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning, relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. Any one of a dozen physics text books all bring the same number. The general relationship between time near the beginning when stable matter formed from the light (the energy, the electromagnetic radiation) of the creation) and time today is a million million, that is a trillion fold extension. That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. It is a unit-less ratio. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe. In astronomy, the term is “red shift.” Red shift in observed astronomical data is standard.

The Torah doesn't say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we're sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah's perspective is from the beginning looking forward.

Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3300 years ago.

The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step.

Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)

The calculations come out to be as follows:

The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.

The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.

The third 24 hour day also included half of the previous day, 2 billion years.

The fourth 24 hour day -- one billion years.

The fifth 24 hour day -- one-half billion years.

The sixth 24 hour day -- one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.
 

Paul

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I found this interesting and just wanted to share it with others that want an answer to this question, from a biblical scientific perspective.

...
One of the most obvious perceived contradictions between Torah and science is the age of the universe. Is it billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data? ...


The Scriptures do not say that the earth is only thousands of years old, only this second earth age.
 

bud02

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The Scriptures do not say that the earth is only thousands of years old, only this second earth age.

The scriptures say that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.
How do you respond to non believers when confronted with this question?
I share my faith with many people, in that I need to keep abreast with what science is finding.
Long story short I find that modern scientific evidence supports scripture.
 

Paul

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Aug 19, 2006
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The scriptures say that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.
How do you respond to non believers when confronted with this question?
I share my faith with many people, in that I need to keep abreast with what science is finding.
Long story short I find that modern scientific evidence supports scripture.

I tell them, "Scripture does not say God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days. Scripture says, 2Pe 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Also you will discover if you study Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 are separated by a period:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
There are millions of years between them.

God did NOT create the earth "without form, and void" it "became" that way.
 

bud02

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I tell them, "Scripture does not say God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days. Scripture says, 2Pe 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Also you will discover if you study Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 are separated by a period:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
There are millions of years between them.

God did NOT create the earth "without form, and void" it "became" that way.

Well I did a little reading and following links on the other treads here. I found Jim Degerstrom and read some of his writings.

Contrary to what many Christians learn from their youth, not everyone in this world is a descendant of Adam and Eve!

The mention of man in the sixth day creation of Genesis 1 refers to mankind which includes men and women, and all the races. Mankind (plural) as translated to “man” (singular) and created on the sixth day were hunters and gatherers, and there’s plenty of historical evidence going back long before Adam in Eden. The male named Adam in Genesis 2 was “formed, not “created” (KJV) in the Garden of Eden, and began before or around 4,000 years B.C., or at least 6,000 years ago.

Verse 1:27 confirms what I stated earlier that the creation of mankind on the sixth day was plural, and included male and female human beings. These predate Adam and Eve who were formed after God rested on the seventh day.

All I can say if that's the case then why does all of mankind need a savor. If it was only Adam and Eve that question is answered.

If there were others then how or why, did the fall of Adam and Eve effect them. This sounds very much like a combination of creation and evolution.
Or maybe a white supremacy teaching. "and all races"
Any way you all seam very comfortable in this teaching I wont intrude on your dogma.
 

Paul

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I tell them, "Scripture does not say God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days. Scripture says, 2Pe 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Also you will discover if you study Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 are separated by a period:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
There are millions of years between them.

God did NOT create the earth "without form, and void" it "became" that way.

Well I did a little reading and following links on the other treads here. I found Jim Degerstrom and read some of his writings.

Contrary to what many Christians learn from their youth, not everyone in this world is a descendant of Adam and Eve!

The mention of man in the sixth day creation of Genesis 1 refers to mankind which includes men and women, and all the races. Mankind (plural) as translated to “man” (singular) and created on the sixth day were hunters and gatherers, and there’s plenty of historical evidence going back long before Adam in Eden. The male named Adam in Genesis 2 was “formed, not “created” (KJV) in the Garden of Eden, and began before or around 4,000 years B.C., or at least 6,000 years ago.

All I can say if that's the case then why does all of mankind need a savor. If it was only Adam and Eve that question is answered.

If there were others then how or why, did the fall of Adam and Eve effect them. This sounds very much like a combination of creation and evolution.
Or maybe a white supremacy teaching. "and all races"
Any way you all seam very comfortable in this teaching I wont intrude on your dogma.

What I said and what Jim said are talking about two different things. I am referring to the great period of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis1:2. Jim is talking about the difference between the sixth day "creation" of man and the man "formed" on the eighth day. The sixth day created man is human kind, "'Adam" the eighth day man is "eth-'Ha 'adham. The Hebrew is talking about a very specific "man." The 6th day man and woman were given the task of hunting and fishing, the 8th day man was given the task of farming and farming type animals were created for him. The Bible follows this farmer Adam. The whole subject has absolutely nothing to do with race; God calls them "All GOOD."
 

bud02

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What I said and what Jim said are talking about two different things. I am referring to the great period of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis1:2. Jim is talking about the difference between the sixth day "creation" of man and the man "formed" on the eighth day. The sixth day created man is human kind, "'Adam" the eighth day man is "eth-'Ha 'adham. The Hebrew is talking about a very specific "man." The 6th day man and woman were given the task of hunting and fishing, the 8th day man was given the task of farming and farming type animals were created for him. The Bible follows this farmer Adam. The whole subject has absolutely nothing to do with race; God calls them "All GOOD."

I notice that most of the supporters of 1st and 3 earth ages are banned.

Nothing to do with race?
Good luck with this concept, quote Jim Degerstrom; not everyone in this world is a descendant of Adam and Eve! Just remember Hitler believed in a supreme race. Its thinking like that which has caused untold problems for man kind, including anti-Semitism and Dispensationalism. or perhaps Isac and Ismael. You see the line of decedents pointed to the seed of the promise, it (the Jewish / Hebrew line) was not the seed. Both Hebrew and Muslim decedents believe they are the recipients of the promise by virtue of the flesh "their birth right". The truth is, Jesus, the PROMISED SEED awaits for both of them to come home by way of the spirit, the Holy Spirit, the true recipients of the promise have the HS.

I was supposing that more fundamental believers would understand the implications of the article I posted.
It's fine that you disagree just as I hope you allow me to disagree with your Gen translation
God Bless
 

Paul

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I notice that most of the supporters of 1st and 3 earth ages are banned.

Nothing to do with race?
Good luck with this concept, quote Jim Degerstrom; not everyone in this world is a descendant of Adam and Eve! Just remember Hitler believed in a supreme race. Its thinking like that which has caused untold problems for man kind, including anti-Semitism and Dispensationalism. or perhaps Isac and Ismael. You see the line of decedents pointed to the seed of the promise, it (the Jewish / Hebrew line) was not the seed.

I was supposing that more fundamental believers would understand the implication in the article I posted.
It's fine that you disagree just as I hope you allow me to disagree with your Gen translation
God Bless

Well, I am still here and I know about the three heaven and earth ages. Those that taught it are not necessarily banned; many just preferred to leave the forum in stead of continuing to debate the many uninformed teachers on this forum.

The words "account disabled" do not mean a person was banned by the way.

As far as what you believe about Scripture, it's totally up to you. We all will be held accountable for what we believe and what we teach.
 

bud02

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I Like What You Wrote bud02. A little to long, but good. A+

I never did thank you so now I have, Thank You Doppleganger'
Your right it is long But I didn't write it I wish:D I just wanted to post all of his research.






I did C/P the meat of the evidence here shorted it by more than 1/2

Einstein's Law of Relativity.

Looking back in time, a scientist will view the universe as being 15 billion years old. But what is the Bible's view of time? Maybe it sees time differently. And that makes a big difference. Albert Einstein taught us that Big Bang cosmology brings not just space and matter into existence, but that time is part of the nitty gritty. Time is a dimension. Time is affected by your view of time. How you see time depends on where you're viewing it. A minute on the moon goes faster than a minute on the Earth. A minute on the sun goes slower. Time on the sun is actually stretched out so that if you could put a clock on the sun, it would tick more slowly. It's a small difference, but it's measurable and measured.

The flow of time varies one location to another location. Hence the term: the law of relativity. If you could ripen oranges on the Sun, they would take longer to ripen. Why? Because time goes more slowly. Would you feel it going more slowly? No, because your biology would be part of the system. If you were living on the Sun, your heart would beat more slowly. Wherever you are, your biology is in synch with the local time. And a minute or an hour where ever you are is exactly a minute or an hour.

If you could look from one system to another, you would see time very differently. Because depending on factors like gravity and velocity, you will perceive time in a way that is very different. The flow of time varies one location to another location. Hence the term: the law of relativity.

Here's an example: One evening we were sitting around the dinner table, and my 11-year-old daughter asked, "How you could have dinosaurs? How you could have billions of years scientifically - and thousands of years Biblically at the same time? So I told her to imagine a planet where time is so stretched out that while we live out two years on Earth, only three minutes will go by on that planet. Now, those places actually exist, they are observed. It would be hard to live there with their conditions, and you couldn't get to them either, but in mental experiments you can do it. Two years are going to go by on Earth, three minutes are going to go by on the planet. So my daughter says, "Great! Send me to the planet. I'll spend three minutes there. I'll do two years worth of homework. I'll come back home in three minutes, and no more homework for two years."

Nice try. Assuming she was age 11 when she left, and her friends were 11. She spends three minutes on the planet and then comes home. (The travel time takes no time.) How old is she when she gets back? Eleven years and 3 minutes. And her friends are 13. Because she lived out 3 minutes while we lived out 2 years. Her friends aged from 11 years to 13 years, while she's 11 years and 3 minutes.

Had she looked down on Earth from that planet, her perception of Earth time would be that everybody was moving very quickly because in one of her minutes, hundreds of thousands of our minutes would pass. Whereas if we looked up, she'd be moving very slowly.

But which is correct? Is it three years? Or three minutes? The answer is both. They're both happening at the same time. That's the legacy of Albert Einstein. It so happens there literally billions of locations in the universe, where if you could put a clock at that location, it would tick so slowly, that from our perspective (if we could last that long) 15 billion years would go by... but the clock at that remote location would tick out six days.

Time travel and the Big Bang.

But how does this help to explain the Bible? Because anyway the Talmud and Rashi and Nahmanides (that is the kabala) all say that Six Days of Genesis were six regular 24-hour periods not longer than our work week!

Let's look a bit deeper. The classical Jewish sources say that before the beginning, we don't really know what there is. We can't tell what predates the universe. The Midrash asks the question: Why does the Bible begin with the letter Beit? Because Beit (which is written like a backwards C) is closed in all directions and only open in the forward direction. Hence we can't know what comes before -- only after. The first letter is a Beit - closed in all directions and only open in the forward direction.

Nachmanides expands the statement. He says that although the days are 24 hours each, they contain "kol yemot ha-olam" -- all the ages and all the secrets of the world.

Nachmanides says that before the universe, there was nothing... but then suddenly the entire creation appeared as a minuscule speck. He gives a dimension for the speck: something very tiny like the size of a grain of mustard. And he says that is the only physical creation. There was no other physical creation; all other creations were spiritual. The Nefesh (the soul of animal life) and the Neshama (the soul of human life) are spiritual creations. There's only one physical creation, and that creation was a tiny speck. The speck is all there was. Anything else was God. In that speck was all the raw material that would be used for making everything else. Nachmanides describes the substance as "dak me'od, ein bo mamash" -- very thin, no substance to it. And as this speck expanded out, this substance -- so thin that it has no essence -- turned into matter as we know it.

Nachmanides further writes: "Misheyesh, yitfos bo zman" -- from the moment that matter formed from this substance-less substance, time grabs hold. Not "begins." Time is created at the beginning. But time "grabs hold." When matter condenses, congeals, coalesces, out of this substance so thin it has no essence -- that's when the Biblical clock of the six days starts.

Science has shown that there's only one "substance-less substance" that can change into matter. And that's energy. Einstein's famous equation, E=MC2, tells us that energy can change into matter. And once it changes into matter, time grabs hold.

Nachmanides has made a phenomenal statement. I don't know if he knew the Laws of Relativity. But we know them now. We know that energy -- light beams, radio waves, gamma rays, x-rays -- all travel at the speed of light, 300 million meters per second. At the speed of light, time does not pass. The universe was aging, but time only grabs hold when matter is present. This moment of time before the clock begins for the Bible, lasted about 1/100,000 of a second. A miniscule time. But in that time, the universe expanded from a tiny speck, to about the size of the Solar System. From that moment on we have matter, and time flows forward. The Biblical clock begins here.

Now the fact that the Bible tells us there is "evening and morning Day One" (and not “a first day”) comes to teach us time from a Biblical perspective. Einstein proved that time varies from place to place in the universe, and that time varies from perspective to perspective in the universe. The Bible says there is "evening and morning Day One".

Now if the Torah were seeing time from the days of Moses and Mount Sinai -- long after Adam -- the text would not have written Day One. Because by Sinai, hundreds of thousands of days already passed. There was a lot of time with which to compare Day One. Torah would have said "A First Day." By the second day of Genesis, the Bible says "a second day," because there was already the First Day with which to compare it. You could say on the second day, "what happened on the first day." But as Nahmanides pointed out, you could not say on the first day, "what happened on the first day" because "first" implies comparison -- an existing series. And there was no existing series. Day One was all there was.

Even if the Torah was seeing time from Adam, the text would have said "a first day", because by its own statement there were six days. The Torah says "Day One" because the Torah is looking forward from the beginning. And it says, How old is the universe? Six Days. We'll just take time up until Adam. Six Days. We look back in time, and say the universe is approximately 15 billion years old. But every scientist knows, that when we say the universe is 15 billion years old, there's another half of the sentence that we never say. The other half of the sentence is: The universe is 15 billion years old as seen from the time-space coordinates that we exist in on earth. That's Einstein's view of relativity. But what would those billions of years be as perceived from near the beginning looking forward?

The key is that the Torah looks forward in time, from very different time-space coordinates, when the universe was small. But since then, the universe has expanded out. Space stretches, and that stretching of space totally changes the perception of time.

Imagine in your mind going back billions of years ago to the beginning of time. Now pretend way back at the beginning of time, when time grabs hold, there's an intelligent community. (It's totally fictitious.) Imagine that the intelligent community has a laser, and it's going to shoot out a blast of light, and every second it's going to pulse. Every second --- pulse. Pulse. Pulse. It shoots the light out, and then billions of years later, way far down the time line, we here on Earth have a big satellite dish, and we receive that pulse of light. And on that pulse of light is imprinted (printing information on light is called fiber optics - sending information by light), "I'm sending you a pulse every second." And then a second goes by and the next pulse is sent.

Light travels 300 million meters per second. So the two light pulses are separated by 300 million meters at the beginning. Now they travel through space for billions of years, and they're going to reach the Earth billions of years later. But wait a minute. Is the universe static? No. The universe is expanding. That's the cosmology of the universe. And that does not mean it's expanding into an empty space outside the universe. There's only the universe. There is no space outside the universe. The universe expands by its own space stretching. So as these pulses go through billions of years of traveling, the universe and space are stretching. As space is stretching, what's happening to these pulses? The space between them is also stretching. So the pulses really get further and further apart.

Billions of years later, when the first pulse arrives, we say, "Wow - a pulse!" And written on it is "I'm sending you a pulse every second." You call all your friends, and you wait for the next pulse to arrive. Does it arrive another second later? No! A year later? Maybe not. Maybe billions of years later. Because depending on how much time this pulse of light has traveled through space, will determine the amount of stretching of space between the pulses. That's standard astronomy.

15 billion or six days?

Today, we look back in time. We see 15 billion years. Looking forward from when the universe is very small -- billions of times smaller -- the Torah says six days. They both may be correct.

What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning, relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. Any one of a dozen physics text books all bring the same number. The general relationship between time near the beginning when stable matter formed from the light (the energy, the electromagnetic radiation) of the creation) and time today is a million million, that is a trillion fold extension. That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. It is a unit-less ratio. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe. In astronomy, the term is “red shift.” Red shift in observed astronomical data is standard.

The Torah doesn't say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we're sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah's perspective is from the beginning looking forward.

Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3300 years ago.

The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step.

Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)

The calculations come out to be as follows:

The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.

The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.

The third 24 hour day also included half of the previous day, 2 billion years.

The fourth 24 hour day -- one billion years.

The fifth 24 hour day -- one-half billion years.

The sixth 24 hour day -- one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.
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veteran

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So the only data I use as far as Biblical commentary goes is ancient commentary. That means the text of the Bible itself (3300 years ago), the translation of the Torah into Aramaic by Onkelos (100 CE), the Talmud (redacted about the year 500 CE), and the three major Torah commentators. There are many, many commentators, but at the top of the mountain there are three, accepted by all: Rashi (11th century France), who brings the straight understanding of the text, Maimonides (12th century Egypt), who handles the philosophical concepts, and then Nachmanides (13th century Spain), the earliest of the Kabbalists.

This ancient commentary was finalized long before Hubbell was a gleam in his great-grandparent's eye. So there's no possibility of Hubbell or any other modern scientific data influencing these concepts.

The commentaries you're addressing are those of the Pharisee rabbi systems of leaven doctrines, especially the Babylonian Talmud system of sage 'sayings' they divised 'outside' Torah during the Babylon captivity, and the Kabbalah system of Jewish 'mysticism'. Those are of the very same groups of Pharisees that changed God's perfect calendar system after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.

In that case, what true science has revealed about the age of the earth stands as more accurate than 'their' words.
 

veteran

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One of the revelations God gives in His Word that many of my Christian brethren miss, is that of God having originally created Satan perfect in his ways (Ezek.28).

There was a time when the cherub that covereth called Satan was perfect before God in serving Him. There simply is no 'direct' Bible statement that tells us just when that was, but it is given indirectly in The Bible.

In Genesis 2 when God formed the man Adam of the dust of the earth, and breathed the breath of Life in Adam, with Adam becoming a living soul, we are also shown in that same chapter that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was also there already setup. The serpent (Satan; Rev.12:9) even referred to God's command to Adam to not eat of that tree, showing Satan had already rebelled against God by that time, and was already in his role of temptor in God's Garden.

So what was the time when Satan was perfect in his ways before that? And how long did Satan serve God before he rebelled, and drew one third of the angels (stars) into rebellion with him? Even Ezekiel 31 gives a hidden parable of Satan's high status originally in God's Garden, revealing a time prior to Gen.2-3.

With counting the generations from Christ back to the man Adam using Bible chronology, Bible scholars like bishop Ussher (17th century), came to the date of 4004 B.C. for Adam in God's Garden. Plus 2000 years after Christ's first coming has been added to that to produce the 6,000 years old earth idea. But that is ONLY about the chronology of Adam, not the chronology of the earth.
 

religusnut

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This thing of TRUE Science is always an amazing thing. For a scientist to be a "TRUE" Scientist. He or she has to be reviewed by his or her peers in their peer review papers. Therefore regardless of how much research they do or what their scientific experiments reveal if it does not pass their Peer Review then it is not recognized a "TRUE" Science. No peer reviewed scientist is going to get the opportunity to have his or her work reviewed and agreed with if it shoots at Evolution or any of the theories that support this religion. All evolution is, is an atheistic religion. It takes a whole lot more faith to believe this hog wash than it does to believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth about 6000 years ago.

When you take into account the flood of Noah the 6000 year old earth makes more sense than anything else.

Ask them how the age the earth at all of those billions of years and they will give you examples of the Geological Column. This however exists no where except in the mind of evolutionist or in their text books.

Ask them how they age artifacts like bones and so forth and they will tell you by the layers of the column that they found them in. Then ask them how they aged the layers of the column and they will tell you by the age of the fossils that they found in them.....

They will tell you that dinosaurs existed all of these millions of years ago and died out all of those millions of years before men. However I have seen pictures of various primitive groups of people that had drawn pictures of animals on the walls of caves and so forth and you know what they looked like? Dinosaurs.

Evolution and a hundred billion year old earth is hog wash. It is a on believer's attempt at proving that there is no God. The reason that it is so widely accepted and you have to constantly debate these people is because it is a state run and state funded religion that is taught in the classrooms of academia of the world and has been now for a good number of years.

All primitive people groups have legends from their ancestors of a giant flood also. Hmmmm wonder if there really was a flood?

Scientist always to come up with theories as to how creation could not have taken place as the Bible says it did. They never seek out to prove that it could have thus they come up with these elaborate theories that people grab on to hook line and sinker to destroy faith.
 

242006

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The formation of Adam dates back a bit over 6,000 years. There were 6 days of creation [reformation] and 1 day of rest prior to the formation of Adam. These 7 days account for 7,000 years of time [2 Pet. 3]. Adding 6,000 to 7,000 gives us 13,000 years of history from the commencement of the 1st day of creation [reformation] to the present.

Scientists have established the conclusion of the Pleistocene at about 14,000 years ago. There is no land mammal in existence today that existed prior to 14,000 years ago. Likewise, there are no fossil remains younger than 14,000 of land mammals that existed prior to 14,000 years ago. The end of the Pleistocene represents a clear break in the fossil record with no land mammal bridging over this gap of time. This correlates exactly to the Bible account for the end of the first age.
 

bud02

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The formation of Adam dates back a bit over 6,000 years. There were 6 days of creation [reformation] and 1 day of rest prior to the formation of Adam. These 7 days account for 7,000 years of time [2 Pet. 3]. Adding 6,000 to 7,000 gives us 13,000 years of history from the commencement of the 1st day of creation [reformation] to the present.

Scientists have established the conclusion of the Pleistocene at about 14,000 years ago. There is no land mammal in existence today that existed prior to 14,000 years ago. Likewise, there are no fossil remains younger than 14,000 of land mammals that existed prior to 14,000 years ago. The end of the Pleistocene represents a clear break in the fossil record with no land mammal bridging over this gap of time. This correlates exactly to the Bible account for the end of the first age.

Apparently you missed the last line of the book outline I posted. He said,

"But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine".

With out reading his book just how do you know his opinion. Oh ya thats right your just expressing your own opinion.
 

Doppleganger

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This is based on Nechunya ben HaKana's revelation of the 42 letter name of god.

http://www.cs.utah.edu/~spiegel/kabbalah/jkm010.htm

You might find this subject good for a laugh also

http://www.unmaskingevolution.com/17-caves.htm
 

bud02

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This is based on Nechunya ben HaKana's revelation of the 42 letter name of god.

http://www.cs.utah.e...alah/jkm010.htm

You might find this subject good for a laugh also

http://www.unmasking...om/17-caves.htm

EDIT EDIT EDIT some times I'm just an Idiot, Doppleganger
If you read this before my re reading this thread, and edit, I'm sorry for not remembering your reply.
I now understand what you are saying, its part of watchmans understanding.
I just couldn't believe the referance source.

Utah.edu site
And heres the title page http://www.cs.utah.e...abbalah/jkm.htm
scary stuff If you want my opinion just from reading the titles and cover page.

In contrast to the no named author of the reference, heres the author of the article I posted.

Dr. Gerald Schroeder
gschroeder.jpg
Dr. Gerald Schroeder earned his BSc, MSc and double-Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics and Earth and Planetary Sciences at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught physics for seven years. While a consultant at the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission he participated in the formulation of nuclear non-proliferation treaties with the former Soviet Union and witnessed the testing of six atomic bombs. He has served as a consultant to various governments worldwide and has been published in Time, Newsweek and Scientific American. He is the author of Genesis and the Big Bang, the discovery of harmony between modern science and the Bible, now in seven languages. He is also the author of The Science of God and The Hidden Face of God. Dr. Schroeder is currently a lecturer at Aish Jerusalem for the Discovery Seminar, Essentials program, Jerusalem Fellowships, and Executive Learning Center ― focusing on the topics of evolution, cosmology, and age of the universe.

As you can see he has a reputation, making statements that can not substantiated are not the norm for people with a reputation such as his.
Your Author won't even place his name on his work, unless I simply missed it.
 

Doppleganger

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 Everyone's entitled to their opinion. This is a good discussion. Bud and all the rest of you. 

The Jews tend to interpret Gen 1:1-3+ as a creative process. Yet, the gematria on Genesis 1:1 totally suggests creation was complete, and that Gen 1:2 is the Overthrown, Fall or Katabole. Which is not to say most of what you observe is 100% right on target, Bud. 

Not everything I post, I believe totally 100% in, but there are lots of goody's in them. Bullinger who was allowed to edit the JPS massoretic version understood this. There's lots of info there on http://www.cs.utah.e...abbalah/jkm.htm .

I just think the Jews go to far when it comes to strictly observing the law. However, many modern ideas & concepts have been re-discovered through them.

The fact that God said, to man & Noah RE-PLENISH the Earth, pretty much closes that portion of the argument for me.

Genesis 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 9:1  And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Your an astute observer, Bud. Stuff slips by the best of us. And pounding out keys isn't always the easiest way to Fully communicate Ideas.

Jeff Spiegal, is the author.

May God Bless You All, & Happy Holidays. 
 

242006

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Apparently you missed the last line of the book outline I posted.

Yeah -- I didn't read your prior post at all. The Bible timeline correlates exactly with science -- just as I laid it out in my prior post. There is not a credible scientist alive that has proof of any land mammal bridging the end of the Pleistocene.

With out reading his book just how do you know his opinion. Oh ya thats right your just expressing your own opinion.

Just teaching Bible -- you are entitled to be willingly ignorant if you wish.
 

bud02

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Yeah -- I didn't read your prior post at all. The Bible timeline correlates exactly with science -- just as I laid it out in my prior post. There is not a credible scientist alive that has proof of any land mammal bridging the end of the Pleistocene.



Just teaching Bible -- you are entitled to be willingly ignorant if you wish.


I didn't read your prior post at all.

I think thats the case a lot of the time,
If by your own admission you did not read the information you replied to, where does that leave your reply? uninformed by choice?
Thanks just the same I've seen worse, and now that Hammerstone has given his definition about the word ignorant be careful how you use it, you may be describing yourself.


ignorance
ig·no·rance (
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g
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n
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r-
schwa.gif
ns)n. The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.


Just teaching Bible -- you are entitled to be willingly ignorant if you wish.
Having never read something how do you know its not biblical? Could we use the word ignorant in this case as well? Maybe even ignorant by choice.

BTW I have read both threads about the 3 earth ages. And followed some links from Paul and Hammerstone. I will say that Hammerstone has a much better presentation and supporting verses than the others I read. My guess is that he keeps this information in its proper perspective, not alowing it to effect the clear context of scripture but at the same time not closing the door on the possibility of further knowledge or continued learning. I give a place to Bullinger, Witness of the Stars. The Great Pyramids gospel in stone, and the lost 10 tribes. But I don't let them dictate what the bible says. We live I hope in the time of revelation which means unveiling as this takes place I feel I am properly positioned to further understand these things. I hope I have made some sense.

I threw the years have extensively looked into the Masons the whole one dollar bill "great seal" the maps and charts of Washington DC the Vatican and the Vatican's symbolic courts and buildings. Maps and charts of ancient structures and the apparent conjunction of the heavens in relation ship to them and to themselves. Satanism and what they have to say in conjunction with all of the above topics. Numerous belief systems I expectantly like pre Abraham history, and there understanding. I could go on but information is important no matter what the source. You have to learn to sift the chafe from the wheat. I have for a while been wanting to start a tread outlining some of these insights but I don't, not because I'm unsure of what I have found but because it will be a waste of my time. And the simple fact that many don't understand things like the precession of the earth, the golden ratio What relation does the golden ratio have in a pentagram ect ect ect. You could learn the latter by simply watching a 1959 Disney film named Donald in mathmagic land. And you will understand the significance of the pentagram and its origin, and how this ratio effects or is seen in all living things.

I like this basic outline of the great pyramid. Its a beginning.
Page one http://www.europa.com/~edge/pyramid.html
Page two http://www.europa.com/~edge/giza.html

Here is some off the wall teaching but I like the work he did in mapping the relationship of earthly buildings to the heavens. Like I said you have to sift the wheat from the chafe. In short I'm an information junkie, leave no stone unturned in the search for a higher vantage point, but never forsake the word of God. Or as Paul said to run the race.

Like I said off the wall but these people do some home work that can be applied else where.
http://www.keyofsolomon.net/

this one I was interested in simply because it indicates that all the pyramids in Egypt all coralate to stars, the Nile being the milky way.
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/orion.htm.htm

Do you know the relation ship to celebrating Jesus birth on Dec 25 is? Of course Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25 but an other god was worshiped. The interesting part is that on the winter solas the sun appears to stop its decent on the southern horizon "to the naked eye" but on the 3rd day it begins it accent marking the point that the days begin being longer. So a man sitting in his home watching the shadow on the wall every day this shadow would appear to stop for three days then reverse direction. Symbolic, yes, but is there a connection between Jesus lying in a tomb for 3 days and on the 3rd day arose. Perhaps if you read Palms


Psalm 19
[sup]1[/sup] The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
[sup]2[/sup] Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
[sup]3[/sup] There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
[sup]4[/sup] Their line[sup][a][/sup] has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.

In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
[sup]5[/sup] Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
[sup]6[/sup] Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

My point in all of this is you have to keep it in perspective.
Including the OP I made on this thread. 6 days or 15 billion years?