A Biblical Lesson on Spiritual Discernment

[Davidpt]

He believes the "He" in verse 27 is referring to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, just as all Christians who actually have discernment do.

And guess what? I also take that 'He' in question to be meaning the Messiah in verse 27. But even so, you still take issue with my interpretation of that verse.. I can't win for losing.

 

[Truth7t7]

But, Truth7t7 said none of Daniel 9:26-27, including the reference to the Messiah being cut off, relates to Christ's death on the cross. I believe you should consider removing your love emoji response from that post.

(Messiah being cut off) has nothing to do with the death of Jesus on Calvary as you believe, it's when the armies surround Jerusalem and the building of the wall and street stops, the building to Messiah is Cut Off

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And guess what? I also take that 'He' in question to be meaning the Messiah in verse 27. But even so, you still take issue with my interpretation of that verse.. I can't win for losing.

I didn't say otherwise, so can you explain what you're talking about here?

 

[CrowCross]

(Messiah being cut off) has nothing to do with the death of Jesus on Calvary as you believe, it's when the armies surround Jerusalem and the building of the wall and street stops, the building to Messiah is Cut Off

How do you know that?

That sounds more like someones speculative theory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

(Messiah being cut off) has nothing to do with the death of Jesus on Calvary as you believe,

As I and a vast majority of Christians believe because that is so obviously what the Messiah being cut off means.

it's when the armies surround Jerusalem and the building of the wall and street stops, the building to Messiah is Cut Off

That is not at all what the verse says. Do you deny that the following verse is about Jesus, also?

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I concur that they are one and the same when the grammar is honored.

Messiah.

It seems to me that the grammar would indicate that the "he" in verse 27 points back to the reference to the Messiah in verse 26 and not to "the prince that will come" because the Messiah is the last individual focused on in verse 26. It's the people of the prince to come that would destroy the city and the sanctuary, so in that part of the verse it's the people being focused on and not the prince to come.

So, in my understanding of the grammar, the "he" in verse 27 is pointing to the reference to the Messiah in verse 26. Because of this, I believe that seeing the prince to come as being Titus is a viable interpretation, even though I now disagree with it, and in no way does interpreting it that way mean that verse 27 has to be referring to Titus or to a future Antichrist, as some interpret the identity of the prince to come. But, the proper grammar of the passage seems to be debatable as it seems that Hebrew grammar rules would allow for the possibility of the "he" in verse 27 to possibly refer back to the last individual who was specifically the subject, which was the Messiah, or to the prince who is to come.

Regardless, we and WPM agree that what makes no sense is that verses 26 and 27 could possibly refer to some future Antichrist and that verse 27 refers to Messiah the prince, Jesus Christ.

 

[WPM]

This is confusing because WPM said that he believes the prince of the people who shall come is Titus with the Roman Army. How could it be Titus with the Roman Army since the prince of the people that shall come is the same he that shall confirm the covenant with many of vs. 27.

He is not the same, in my opinion! There is two princes - one the Messiah, and the other Titus. From my studies, and I have read a lot on this, my position would be the traditional Protestant view over the years.

 

[Truth7t7]

As I and a vast majority of Christians believe because that is so obviously what the Messiah being cut off means.


That is not at all what the verse says. Do you deny that the following verse is about Jesus, also?

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Does Daniel's (Little Horn) stop the daily sacrifice in the verses below?

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does Daniel's (Little Horn) stop the daily sacrifice in the verses below?

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Answer my question first.

Do you deny that the following verse is about Jesus like you do Daniel 9:26 that references the Messiah being cut off, but not for Himself?

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

 

[Truth7t7]

He is not the same, in my opinion! There is two princes - one the Messiah, and the other Titus. From my studies, and I have read a lot on this, my position would be the traditional Protestant view over the years.

I Disagree that Titus was Daniel's (Little Horn) but at least you don't see the "He" in Daniel 9:27 as Jesus Christ "Scary"!

WPM how do you see the "He" in Daniel 9:27 being on this earth until the consummation or ultimate end as Daniel 9:27 teaches, Titus died long ago and won't be present for a future consummation?

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future" (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 7:10-11 below clearly shows the Lord's Second coming and final judgement, the (Little Horn) is present on this earth at this time, as his living body will be killed/slain?

Daniel 7:10-11KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[Truth7t7]

Answer my question first.

Do you deny that the following verse is about Jesus like you do Daniel 9:26 that references the Messiah being cut off, but not for Himself?

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

My question has been posted to you like five times over the past week, answer my question

Does Daniel's (Little Horn) stop the daily sacrifice in the verses below?

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

 

[WPM]

Don't Respond

I Disagree that Titus was Daniel's (Little Horn) but at least you don't see the "He" in Daniel 9:27 as Jesus Christ "Scary"!

WPM how do you see the "He" in Daniel 9:27 being on this earth until the consummation or ultimate end, and Daniel 7

Daniel 7:10-11KJV
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

It doesn't say the Messiah will be on the earth until the consummation. It simply says that as a result of the cutting off of the Messiah by Israel their temple would be destroyed. It would be destroyed until the consummation (the end). Why are you going to Daniel 7? It is talking about the final judgment.

 

[WPM]

My question has been posted to you like five times over the past week, answer my question

Does Daniel's (Little Horn) stop the daily sacrifice in the verses below?

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

You did not answer his question

 

[Davidpt]

He is not the same, in my opinion! There is two princes - one the Messiah, and the other Titus. From my studies, and I have read a lot on this, my position would be the traditional Protestant view over the years.

If meaning Titus, why even mention a prince at all? Why not just say this instead if it is allegedly involving 70 AD?

and the people that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


And if anyone connects that with 70 AD, they would obviously know that this is meaning the Romans and it is connected with Titus. therefore, it is reduntant if 70 AD is meant, that it needs to also mention a prince that shall come. It's obvious via what history recorded that these people in question, if meaning the Romans, did these things via the commands of a prince. No one thinks they just decided to do these things on their own if meaning 70 AD

IMO, too many interpreters in here are thinking carnally rather than spiritually, in regard to the latter clauses in both verse 26 and 27.

In the book of Daniel, elsewhere when the Hebrew word for destroyed is used, it is never meaning in a literal sense, such as destroying literal cities and literal temples. I'm not arguing that that applies to everything in the OT that uses this same Hebrew word. I'm only meaning in the book of Daniel.

For example. destroy---shachath


Daniel 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting(shachath) her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy(shachath) wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy(shachath) the mighty and the holy people.

What one should be doing is interpreting some of these things in Daniel 9:26 in the sense Daniel 8:24 is meaning. In the NT the body of Christ equals both a city and a sanctuary. And even though some clearly already know that, they interpret the clause in question in Daniel 9:26 in a literal manner, thus a carnal manner, rather than in a spiritual manner such as the NT does when involving a city and a temple, such as in Revelation 11:1-2, for example. Let's not take that in the literal sense, where I fully agree, but let's take the city and temple meant in Daniel 9:26 in a literal sense, where I disagree entirely. And the reasons why, I already explained above.

 

[David in NJ]

(Messiah being cut off) has nothing to do with the death of Jesus on Calvary as you believe, it's when the armies surround Jerusalem and the building of the wall and street stops, the building to Messiah is Cut Off

STOP and THINK before you continue on this error.

the Messiah
מָשִׁ֖יחַ (mā·šî·aḥ)
Adjective - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 4899: 1) anointed, anointed one 1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince 1b) of the king of Israel 1c) of the high priest of Israel 1d) of Cyrus 1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

will be cut off
יִכָּרֵ֥ת (yik·kā·rêṯ)
Verb - Nifal - Imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3772: 1) to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to cut off 1a1a) to cut off a body part, behead 1a2) to cut down 1a3) to hew 1a4) to cut or make a covenant 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be cut off 1b2) to be cut down 1b3) to be chewed 1b4) to be cut off, fail 1c) (Pual) 1c1) to be cut off 1c2) to be cut down 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to cut off 1d2) to cut off, destroy 1d3) to cut down, destroy 1d4) to take away 1d5) to permit to perish 1e) (Hophal) cut off

and will have nothing
וְאֵ֣ין (wə·’ên)
Conjunctive waw | Adverb
Strong's Hebrew 369: 1) nothing, not, nought n 1a) nothing, nought neg 1b) not 1c) to have not (of possession) adv 1d) without w/prep 1e) for lack of

 

[amigo de christo]

i did not know that

my friend has arrived . WE got much work to do in these very late and very last hours upon earth .
A harlot who sits over many waters has infiltrated everything now .
And soon her call to her children will go from ecumeincal to CRUSADES .
ANY guesses on who both she and her father satan and his beast GONNA rage all out war against .
That inclusive god is satan david . I KNOW IT with every ounce of my being . IT IS SATAN .
And i warn us all that ecumeincalism and its interfaith IS of that which is of anti christ . ON THAT I HAVE NO DOUBT david .
NOT one tiny doubt .
AND on this i have NO DOUBT either . JESUS THE CHRIST BE THE ONLY WAY TO GOD
and if one loves HIM they had loved HIS WORDS , they had LOVED THE TRUTH and NOT A LIE .

 

[Truth7t7]

It doesn't say the Messiah will be on the earth until the consummation. It simply says that as a result of the cutting off of the Messiah by Israel their temple would be destroyed. It would be destroyed until the consummation (the end). Why are you going to Daniel 7? It is talking about the final judgment.

I clearly asked you not to respond and you did "Why"?,

My post was under construction, please respond to post #310 that is now finished

 

[Truth7t7]

It doesn't say the Messiah will be on the earth until the consummation. It simply says that as a result of the cutting off of the Messiah by Israel their temple would be destroyed. It would be destroyed until the consummation (the end). Why are you going to Daniel 7? It is talking about the final judgment.

The subject is Daniel 9:27 as seen in post #310 above, the confusion is because you answered a post that clearly stated (Don't Respond) and you did anyway

 

[Truth7t7]

You did not answer his question

My question has been posted for several days to Israelite, it's time that he responds before asking questions of me

My question has been posted to him like five times over the past week

Does Daniel's (Little Horn) stop the daily sacrifice in the verses below?

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.