A challenge to 'christians' who doubt the inspiration of Scripture

[Asyncritus]

[SIZE=medium]'Edward' is a mythical 'christian' who claims and objects to certain things in the Bible, on the grounds that God couldn't have said or done some of these things. Strangely enough, he accepts other things - like 'love thy neighbour', and thinks that Jesus couldn't be cruel and unkind. He therefore rejects those parts of scripture which say such things. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This is written to shake him up a little, and any others on this forum who may have such inclinations.[/SIZE]

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[SIZE=medium]I am more than a little concerned about the attitude displayed by Edward who really ought to know better, (and Moule who Edward quotes so approvingly), and by the consequential arguments that Edward raises: all of which seem to me to be undermining anybody’s faith in the inspiration of Holy Scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Moule claims to have read the Bible daily for 50 years. Paul did too, and look at how many he killed and jailed! But certainly Paul would have no truck with the kind of view you are expressing. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If he argued so fiercely against people wishing to reinstate circumcision, what do you think he would have said about people seeking to denigrate and diminish the Word of his God.? Why, the very pages of his denunciation would catch fire.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Make no mistake, the attitude Moule displays, and Edward approves, is destructive to anybody’s view of the authority of the Bible, a whittling away at the foundations mentioned above. And if that authority is diminished or destroyed, then what does that leave but a mouthful of sawdust?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The safest way to determine how we, or anybody else, should look at the scriptures, is to assess the authority that Jesus attributes to them, to view His attitude to them with the attention a follower would give to his Leader. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If after such viewing, we still feel that we are in a position to say well, this bit is inspired, and that bit is not, then we should set up our own sect or something similar where such views are tolerated and encouraged.The Anglicans and many other mainstream churches offer such havens to the ‘inspiration’ disaffected.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Here is the most meaningless statement I have ever read Edward making:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“With love in the Lord, to whom in one way and another the testimony of all scripture leads; his lordship is the infallible message to which we are led.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]‘Infallible’message? How do you know that Edward? Were not the gospels and epistles and the Revelation all expressions of the views of the day? Doctored and watered down or up according to the point of view of the writer and not of God Himself?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Isn’t that what you are saying? Once you pull at a single strand in a woollen sweater, the whole thing comes undone in your very hands. YOU HAVE NO LOGICAL, OR EVEN COMMON-SENSICAL, STOPPING POINT.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]How do you know Jesus was the Son of God? How do you know that He died? How do you know that He rose again from the dead? How do you know that He is at the right hand of God in heaven and will come again to judge the living and the dead? How do you even know there is a God? How do you know anything, in fact?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Because the Bible says so, do you reply? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But those Biblical views may well be the views of mistaken men, all under the cultural influences of their day, expressing views which are not in any way necessarily correct. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So which ones DO you view as being correct? And what justification can you offer for saying that they are correct? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You, Moule and others like you, seem to be severely deficient in logic. YOU SIMPLY CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. And your readers (who all seem to be nodding sagely and saying ‘yes Edward, isn’t that wonderful Edward’ because I see no serious challenge to your opinions), are also headed downstream over the edge of the falls which lie ahead, and have claimed the lives of so many.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But as I said, the safest way to proceed is to examine the attitude of this man you claim as ‘Lord’, to the Scriptures, His Father’s Word to mankind. Let’s do that in a brief survey. What do we find?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Nothing but respect. Nothing but: this is what the scriptures say, so that’s IT. No discussion. No dispute. No: oh that was the culture of the day. And many of His quotations and appeals are to passages you would have no hesitation in saying: that’s un-Christlike. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Which raises the next question: how un-Christlike was Christ?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Here:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]1. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]2. [/SIZE]Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

[SIZE=medium]3 Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Observe: That’s what it says, and as far as I am concerned, THAT’S IT.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]That’s a quotation from the 10 Commandments: given by some desert god to a bunch of ignorant slaves and savages, at some mythical mount. Isn’t it? And how do you know it has any authority anyway?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] Same again: [/SIZE]given by some desert god to a bunch of ignorant slaves and savages, at some mythical mount. Isn’t it? And how do you know it has any authority anyway?

[SIZE=medium]Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Same again: [/SIZE]given by some desert god to a bunch of ignorant slaves and savages, at some mythical mount. Isn’t it? And how do you know it has any authority anyway?

[SIZE=medium]An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Wow! : Un-Christlike commandment [/SIZE]given by some desert god to a bunch of ignorant slaves and savages, at some mythical mount. Isn’t it? And how do you know it has any authority anyway?

[SIZE=medium]Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy[/SIZE].

[SIZE=medium]He doesn’t say it was false! Just: here’s a better way which also comes from the same law: Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Mt 21. 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves…[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And its true![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And it’s true. And it is part of my authority for saying I am the Son of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Mt 22.31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,[/SIZE]

1. [SIZE=medium]I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This is the verse of verses, which kills your meanderings stone dead.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Here is this desert god, talking to the mythical Moses, at a mythical bush, which was mythically burning.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And Jesus builds the whole doctrine of the resurrection on the present tense of the verb ‘to be’. I ‘AM’ finishes it for me, He says. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Believest thou this Edward? If the present tense of the verb to be, in this way out passage, says you are going to be raised from the dead, ought you not to take your shoes off, doff your hat, and be respectful with your opinion of the inspiration of the scriptures – and spend your time finding out WHY it is the word of God instead of this carping, which is surely going to lead many to destruction, if they haven’t managed to get there by themselves already?[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]38 This is the first and great commandment.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Both of these are in the Law of that desert god. Jesus says it is final. No further discussion is allowed, or necessary. But is that good enough for you? I doubt it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Look! He says, here’s proof that I am the Son of God, greater than David or Solomon, come to that. Now are you going to argue the point, He asks? That Psalm was written by an ignorant shepherd boy in the bushes somewhere. How can that possibly be inspired? But He says it is, and that’s good enough for me. You going to argue with him?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]That’s fact, He says, and you are going to suffer because of it. What an un-Christlike statement! Did Jesus say that, really? Or was it the insertion of some later scribe or something? But Jesus DIDN’T say that. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]It was Daniel. You know, that Jewish/Babylonian illiterate who couldn’t write or prophesy, as your higher critical friends might say. It was good enough for Jesus at this last stage of His life here. Good enough for you?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]He recites the Psalm: inspired as it was by God. But the same Psalm prophesied about his garments being gambled for, and the dogs encompassing Him. Inspired or not?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So He believed that Solomon existed! And draws lessons from the man’s opulence. No argument about inspiration there.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]What an un-Christlike statement! But look – he believed in the existence of S & G, and even more so, in the judgment. Do you? And if so, why?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Look, that’s authoritative, He says. Because Malachi said so. It’s true. Inspired too, because he foretold the future. Do you believe that?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Look, that’s an accurate historical record, and furnishes authority for my disciples doing this. Do you believe that, Edward?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Look, says Jesus. That’s authoritative, inspired, true. But here’s the un-Christlike context of that: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=7pt]5 [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=7pt]6 [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=7pt]7 [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=7pt]8 [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=7pt]9 [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=7pt]10 [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Believest thou that this is inspired Edward?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]We-l-l-l-l…. What did that joker Isaiah know about anything? Inspired? Hah. Which Isaiah anyway? No 24 or no.33? Inspired or hallucinating vaporously?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Well, we know what Jesus thought. What do you think?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Oh look! That Jewish kid’s fable! What? Swallowed and regurgitated by a fish and survived? Eyewash! Or is it? Jesus held it to be true – your ‘Lord’, remember. Do you and Moule know better than He? I wonder.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So he took the history of Solomon very seriously, and the existence of the Q of Sheba. Do you? Inspired or not?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Is there any doubt that He regarded these as the words of God? Inspired and authoritative? I can’t see the slightest vestige of doubt in there, do you?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]He makes the very clear distinction between what man says, and what God says right there. So God said that lot, according to your ‘Lord.’ But what do you think? Inspired or not? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So Genesis isn’t folklore. God did it. God wrote it. It has His authority, says Jesus your ‘Lord’. I accept it as such, says Jesus your ‘Lord’. But do you? That’s the question.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Same as the above.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So this relatively short selection from Matthew’s gospel alone is unanimous in declaring that the OT is[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]a. From God and therefore[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]b. Inspired and [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]c. Authoritative and d. Not to be questioned or trifled with.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Question: do you Edward, and you, readers, accept this, or not? If not, then you can forget all this nonsense about Jesus being your ‘Lord’. You know better than He does.[/SIZE]

 

[mjrhealth]

I doubt if there are many christians who have issues with "scripture". but I certainly have problems with a lot of the bible. Which part is scripture and which is not. Jesus only referred to the Torah, we assume because of this that is is all scripture, and so we end up with all this confusion. The disciples certainly would never of considered anything the wrote to be scripture, though they certainly where inspired many times, some times by God other times by satan,

Mar 8:32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

So Christ gave us the Holy Spirit so we could be taught by Him instead of trying to figure it all out for ourselves.

In all His Love

 

[Mungo]

So Christ gave us the Holy Spirit so we could be taught by Him instead of trying to figure it all out for ourselves.

In all His Love

Christ gave us the Holy Spirit to sanctify us; to help us live a holy life.

Nowhere does scripture say the Holy Spirit will teach us individually. If the Holy Spirit is teaching each individual then he appears to be either doing a terrible job, or teaching people different and conflicting things.


Nor does scripture say we should be figuring it our for ourselves. That is what has led to 30,000 Protestant denominations teaching different and conflicting doctrines.

Jesus taught the apostles and the apostles, the leaders of the Church he founded, and commissioned them to take his teaching to the ends of the earth.
He gave them the commision to teach.

 

[mjrhealth]

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you

But for most

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

But than if religion is your way, than you miss out.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Christ, the only way.

In all His Love

 

[Asyncritus]

Are you sure that those verses you quoted are dependable scripture?

If you are sure, then why are you so sure, if as you said above, you have doubts about what is scripture or not?

. but I certainly have problems with a lot of the bible. Which part is scripture and which is not.

 

[mjrhealth]

Are you sure that those verses you quoted are dependable scripture?

If you are sure, then why are you so sure, if as you said above, you have doubts about what is scripture or not?

I know my father, dont you.

In all His love

 

[Asyncritus]

I know my father, dont you.

In all His love

How is this an answer to the question?

Actually, now I think about it, how do you know you have a father?

 

[mjrhealth]

And Jesus said, " My Sheep hear my voice and I know them and they know me."

Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

In All His Love

 

[Mungo]

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you

But for most

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

But than if religion is your way, than you miss out.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Christ, the only way.

In all His Love

Are these a response to my post?

If so can I point out that John 14 & 16 are the Last Supper discourses where Jesus was speaking to the apostles, the leaders of His Church. It is wrong to apply them to everyone. That error is obvious when you conside the thousands of denominations believing different and conflicting doctrines.

John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” The Holy Spirit will remind the apostles all that Jesus taught them in the past.

John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now” Jesus has more to say to the apostles – and he will after his resurrection when he spent another 40 days with them.

John 16:13 “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” The Holy Spirit will guide the apostles in to all truth in the future when new situations come along.

1Jn 2:27 – we need to look at the context. John is writing, not just the verse you quote

1Jn2: 12 “My little children, I am writing this to you…..” John is writing to those whom he has catechised, taught them everything, taught them the truth. However they are in danger of being led astray by false teachers.

Then we come to vs 20-27
But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge. [because John has taught them] I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do [again because John has taught them], and because every lie is alien to the truth. (vs 20,21)
Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you [what they have already been taught by John]. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. (vs 24)

As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you [because they have already been taught]. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him. (vs 27)

This is equivalent to the first promise Jesus made to the apostles (Jn 14:26). The Holy Spirit would bring to mind all the true teaching they had already received. That presupposes that they had already received true teaching. But you have to get that true teaching first. You cannot generate it from your own resources. You cannot reach the truth by starting from scratch, but only by receiving it from those who have already been taught it and can pass it on. Then when you are presented with false teaching the Holy Spirit will bring to mind the truth that you have already been taught.

This where Martin Luther and the other reformers went wrong. They thought they could reject the teaching authority of the Church and start from scratch with just the Bible. And that is why Protestantism has fractured into thousands of denominations with many opposing doctrines.

 

[mjrhealth]

This where Martin Luther and the other reformers went wrong. They thought they could reject the teaching authority of the Church and start from scratch with just the Bible. And that is why Protestantism has fractured into thousands of denominations with many opposing doctrines.

God never gave man any authority to start any church, man in all his wisdom just did what thy wanted, and what did we get, multitudes of denominations all teaching there own doctrines all claiming to be the "only way" yet as Jesus put it,

at 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Funny how after Christ teh "church" still went around slaying the prophets and anyone who disagreed with them. No people dont want the Holy Spirit, that requires faith, its so easy to do it mans way.

In all his love

 

[Mungo]

God never gave man any authority to start any church, man in all his wisdom just did what thy wanted, and what did we get, multitudes of denominations all teaching there own doctrines all claiming to be the "only way" yet as Jesus put it,

at 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Funny how after Christ teh "church" still went around slaying the prophets and anyone who disagreed with them. No people dont want the Holy Spirit, that requires faith, its so easy to do it mans way.

In all his love

You are quite right God did not give man authority to start a Church. So why have Protestants done that?

God (Jesus) founded his own Church, the one we know today as the Catholic Church.

 

[Webers_Home]

I certainly have problems with a lot of the bible. Which part is scripture
and which is not.

I have to agree with Asyncritus. If you're not certain in your heart and mind
which portions of the Bible are fact and which portions are fiction; then you
should avoid quoting anything at all from the Bible to substantiate your
beliefs. You'd be just as smart to quote Socrates and/or Plato seeing as how
their ideas may or may not be inspired too.

Not long ago I ran across a forum composed mostly of Atheists who sincerely
believe the Bible is fiction; yet they discus the Bible as if it's fact-- sort of
like a Jane Austin book club. They could be very humorous at times; for
example; one of them said to me "May God have mercy on your soul" When
I asked the Atheist why they would wish mercy for me from a supreme being
they didn't believe exists; they replied, in so many words: "Well; you believe
one exists. I'm just patronizing your belief for the sake of discussion."

(chuckle) There are people on the internet who on the one hand discuss the
Bible as if it were fact, and on the other hand discuss the Bible as if it were
fiction. I sometimes suspect that they switch back and forth so often that
they get a little confused after a while and don't know one hand from the other
like a small child who doesn't yet know it's left from it's right.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Asyncritus]

And Jesus said, " My Sheep hear my voice and I know them and they know me."

Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

In All His Love

So how do you know Jesus said that?

If you're not certain in your heart and mind
which portions of the Bible are fact and which portions are fiction; then you
should avoid quoting anything at all from the Bible to substantiate your
beliefs.

Precisely the point.

You are quite right God did not give man authority to start a Church. So why have Protestants done that?

God (Jesus) founded his own Church, the one we know today as the Catholic Church.

Where does it say that? In Scripture, or elsewhere?

 

[Mungo]

Where does it say that? In Scripture, or elsewhere?

Where does it say what?
That God (Jesus) founded a Church or that the one Jesus founded is the one we know today as the Catholic Church?

 

[mjrhealth]

Where does it say what?
That God (Jesus) founded a Church or that the one Jesus founded is the one we know today as the Catholic Church?

See, here we go into the realm of fairytales and false doctrines.

1Co_7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

He certanly didnt cosider all he said was from Jesus. it is his opinion.

In all his love
Interesting thing is the dictionary defines scripture as.

"Any writing or book of a scred nature,"

that makes the koran and every other religous book, writing, text, scripture wheter from God or not.

In all His Most amazing love and grace

 

[Mungo]

See, here we go into the realm of fairytales and false doctrines.

Not fairy tales or false doctrine

1Co_7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

He certanly didnt cosider all he said was from Jesus. it is his opinion.

I don't see the relevance of that scripture quote or your comment.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well Mungo, could take this further but that will derail this thread, mind you, what you jsut said, proves my point.

In all his Love

 

[Mungo]

Well Mungo, could take this further but that will derail this thread, mind you, what you jsut said, proves my point.

In all his Love

Well that's a pretty standard response from people that have no answer.

 

[Angelina]

God (Jesus) founded his own Church, the one we know today as the Catholic Church.

It is true that Christ founded his own Church which was revealed to Peter by revelation from heaven.

Matthew 16
6 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

This revelation from Father is the foundation stone of the gospel message which brings salvation and eternal life to all who believe in Christ by faith.

John 3
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Christ's Church is one body dispersed across many denominations who read his word and believe in him by faith. They are believer's that have been empowered with the promised Holy Spirit and execute their ministerial calls according to the will of God [2 Tim:5] and the leading of the Holy Spirit [Romans 8:4].

Shalom!!!

 

[Asyncritus]

Jesus did say that to Peter - but Peter was most certainly NOT the rock on which the church was founded.

How could he be? Peter means a little stone. The 'rock' in this passage is the word for a gigantic boulder or some such.

And in any case, Jesus was alluding to Isa.28.16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Even more particularly,

Isa 38.9 ¶ The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick, and was recovered of his sickness:
10 I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years.

In Hebrew, the grave = hell = sheol

So when Jesus says: Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

He is referring to the two passages above.

Hezekiah had been sick unto death. He went to the gates of hell (=the grave), but without going through them.

Jesus on the other hand, went through the gates of hell (= the grave/ sheol) and returned, so His statement is perfectly accurate. The grave itself (=sheol/hell) itself could not prevail against Him:

As Peter said:

Acts 2.24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, (= the grave/sheol) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.(in the grave/sheol).

Jesus says much the same:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

That is the correct meaning of Matt 16.18