A Closer Look at the Genesis Creation Account

[Aunty Jane]

Do you know the consequences of denying Jesus is Lord?
.

I have never denied that "Jesus is Lord...to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:11) If Jesus was God, he would promote his own glory.

I deny that Jesus is Almighty God because he never once said he was......he is the son of his Father.....and like all father and son relationships, the son was "begotten" by his Father who of necessity, had to have existed before him.

There is no trinity in the Bible....not the word...not even the idea.

 

[Cooper]

I have never denied that "Jesus is Lord...to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:11) If Jesus was God, he would promote his own glory.

I deny that Jesus is Almighty God because he never once said he was......he is the son of his Father.....and like all father and son relationships, the son was "begotten" by his Father who of necessity, had to have existed before him.

There is no trinity in the Bible....not the word...not even the idea.

You are so wrong.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are so wrong.

What if you are wrong? And you have swallowed an ancient lie...told so long ago that almost all of Christendom never questions it?

You have to ignore a lot of scripture to claim that Jesus Almighty God. There is not one direct statement in the Bible that has God or his son affirming any equality...just the opposite in fact. So since categorical statements are entirely missing from the scriptures, and the fact that the Jews never knew anything about a trinity God....(and remember that Jesus was Jewish).....why would he ever have taught such a thing?

 

[Cooper]

What if you are wrong? And you have swallowed an ancient lie...told so long ago that almost all of Christendom never questions it?

You have to ignore a lot of scripture to claim that Jesus Almighty God. There is not one direct statement in the Bible that has God or his son affirming any equality...just the opposite in fact. So since categorical statements are entirely missing from the scriptures, and the fact that the Jews never knew anything about a trinity God....(and remember that Jesus was Jewish).....why would he ever have taught such a thing?

Jesus God of the Whole Earth

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to flesh, He being YAHWEH over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Luk 2:11 For today is born to you in the city of David, the Savior, who is YAHWEH, the Messiah.

Act 2:36 Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that YAHWEH made known this same Yahshua whom you crucified, He is both YAHWEH and Messiah.

1Sa 16:6 And it happened as they came in, that he saw Eliab, and said, Surely before YAHWEH is His Messiah.

Act 10:36 The Word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching the good news of peace through Yahshua Messiah, He is Master YAHWEH of all.

Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
.

 

[JohnPaul]

There are a few in here that declare that Mary was also. She was conceived perfect with no sin

I've never heard any Priest ever say Mary was immaculately conceived, never. Was she perfect and without sin? Possible and it's why she was chosen by God to immaculately conceive Jesus Christ.

 

[JohnPaul]

Amen,

Not only was there no death before adam fell. And that all life were plant eaters

We are told when christ returns it will go back to that after he returns. That the sheep and lion will lay side by side. Because the lion no longer needs to eat the sheep. So the sheep is no longer threatened.

God did not create meat eaters.

It was after the flood man was allowed to eat meat, was it not?

 

[JohnPaul]

It’s true...look it up....

I don't need to look something up the Church never taught me, I did my catechism and my sacraments and this was never taught.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've never heard any Priest ever say Mary was immaculately conceived, never. Was she perfect and without sin? Possible and it's why she was chosen by God to immaculately conceive Jesus Christ.

No it was not possible that she was perfect and without sin.

For ALL have sinned and fall short of Gods glory

Even Jesus said, Why do you call me Good, no one is good but God.

Now maybe your right and no priest have ever said that, and to be honest Until I got in here, I never heard any catholics say it. But like I said, I have in here. Maybe they do not understand their own doctrine? I am not sure.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It was after the flood man was allowed to eat meat, was it not?

Yes I believe you are right.

 

[farouk]

I've never heard any Priest ever say Mary was immaculately conceived, never. Was she perfect and without sin? Possible and it's why she was chosen by God to immaculately conceive Jesus Christ.

Hi @JohnPaul Interesting that Luke 1.47 records Mary's words, 'my spirit hath rejoice in God my Saviour' - (Mary needed a Saviour also...)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't need to look something up the Church never taught me, I did my catechism and my sacraments and this was never taught.

Perhaps many Catholic people were never taught exactly what this dogma means.....

Here it is from a Catholic website...

“What is the Immaculate Conception?
The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that states that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain. That’s what “immaculate” means: without stain.

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect.

The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.”
Immaculate Conception and Assumption

It’s about Mary being “sinless” in order for Jesus to be born “sinless”. But scripture proves that Mary was a daughter of Adam, just the same as all others. She was “favoured” by God for many reasons, but being born without sin isn’t one of them. God, by his spirit saw to that by implanting the sinless life of his son in her womb.

According to Luke 2:24, when Mary and Joseph took Jesus to the Temple, they offered two turtle doves, (an offering of the poor, according to the law. Leviticus ch 12) One was a “sin offering”.

Lev 12:8...
“But if she cannot afford a sheep, she must then take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and one for a sin offering, and the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus God of the Whole Earth

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to flesh, He being YAHWEH over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Luk 2:11 For today is born to you in the city of David, the Savior, who is YAHWEH, the Messiah.

Act 2:36 Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that YAHWEH made known this same Yahshua whom you crucified, He is both YAHWEH and Messiah.

1Sa 16:6 And it happened as they came in, that he saw Eliab, and said, Surely before YAHWEH is His Messiah.

Act 10:36 The Word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching the good news of peace through Yahshua Messiah, He is Master YAHWEH of all.

Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
.

Those are some of the most messed up translations I have ever seen!

What version of the Bible are you quoting?

 

[JohnPaul]

Perhaps many Catholic people were never taught exactly what this dogma means.....

Here it is from a Catholic website...

“What is the Immaculate Conception?
The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that states that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain. That’s what “immaculate” means: without stain.

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect.

The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.”
Immaculate Conception and Assumption

It’s about Mary being “sinless” in order for Jesus to be born “sinless”. But scripture proves that Mary was a daughter of Adam, just the same as all others. She was “favoured” by God for many reasons, but being born without sin isn’t one of them. God, by his spirit saw to that by implanting the sinless life of his son in her womb.

According to Luke 2:24, when Mary and Joseph took Jesus to the Temple, they offered two turtle doves, (an offering of the poor, according to the law. Leviticus ch 12) One was a “sin offering”.

Lev 12:8...
“But if she cannot afford a sheep, she must then take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and one for a sin offering, and the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

I’m sorry Aunty Jane, I just ain’t buying it, this was never taught in my Roman Catholic Church, I was taught that the Immaculate Conception was the birth of Christ through Mary by God’s intervention and that without the stain of man’s intercourse. Is that even a legit Catholic site?

 

[JohnPaul]

Those are some of the most messed up translations I have ever seen!

What version of the Bible are you quoting?

Like I said don’t believe everything you read.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’m sorry Aunty Jane, I just ain’t buying it, this was never taught in my Roman Catholic Church, I was taught that the Immaculate Conception was the birth of Christ through Mary by God’s intervention and that without the stain of man’s intercourse. Is that even a legit Catholic site?

That is up to you, but the link was to a Catholic website. Perhaps it was just never explained clearly to you?

 

[JohnPaul]

That is up to you, but the link was to a Catholic website. Perhaps it was just never explained clearly to you?

No that’s not what the Immaculate Conception is it was Jesus being conceived in Mary’s womb through God the father.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No that’s not what the Immaculate Conception is it was Jesus being conceived in Mary’s womb through God the father.

JP, far be it from me to tell you what your own church teaches, but if the Catechism says so, then it must be so....no?

“According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" (Luke 1:28) through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin." [CCC 491]”

Perhaps your teachers were remiss in omitting this information concerning their dogma?
It’s up to you whether you believe your own church, but you have to know what it teaches, even if it didn’t teach it to you.

 

[Cooper]

Those are some of the most messed up translations I have ever seen!

What version of the Bible are you quoting?

I think it was from the Hebrew Roots Bible, but it was a long time ago, so I may be mistaken.
.

 

[JohnPaul]

JP, far be it from me to tell you what your own church teaches, but if the Catechism says so, then it must be so....no?

“According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):

Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" (Luke 1:28) through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin." [CCC 491]”

Perhaps your teachers were remiss in omitting this information concerning their dogma?
It’s up to you whether you believe your own church, but you have to know what it teaches, even if it didn’t teach it to you.

Wow, @Aunty Jane, this is news to me I was never taught that, or my memory doesn't go back that far.

Plus I haven't gone to the Roman Catholic Church for at least a decade, and no longer consider myself Catholic, I just go by Christian.

But who am I to say it's not true if it is written, this is why I choose not to go to any Church they all have their own theories and twist the bible.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hebrew Roots Bible.

And what makes this Bible your choice out of all the English translations?

Let me compare the HRB with the NASB for the Greek scriptures, and the Jewish Tanakh for the Hebrew verses....

HRB...Isa 54:5....For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called."

TANAKH....Isa 54:5..."For your Master is your Maker, the Lord [ יְהֹוָ֥ה ] of Hosts is His name, and your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, shall be called the God of all the earth. הכִּ֚י בֹֽעֲלַ֙יִךְ֙ עֹשַׂ֔יִךְ יְהֹוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת שְׁמ֑וֹ וְגֹֽאֲלֵךְ֙ קְד֣וֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֱלֹהֵ֥י כָל־הָאָ֖רֶץ יִקָּרֵֽא:"

HRB...Rom 9:5..."whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to flesh, He being YAHWEH over all, blessed forever. Amen."

NASB...."whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."

HRB...Luk 2:11..."For today is born to you in the city of David, the Savior, who is YAHWEH, the Messiah."

NASB..." for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."

HRB...Act 2:36..."Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that YAHWEH made known this same Yahshua whom you crucified, He is both YAHWEH and Messiah."

NASB..."Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

HRB...1Sa 16:6..."And it happened as they came in, that he saw Eliab, and said, Surely before YAHWEH is His Messiah."

TANAKH..."And it was, that when they came, and he saw Eliab, that he said, "Surely, before the Lord is His anointed." ווַיְהִ֣י בְּבוֹאָ֔ם וַיַּ֖רְא אֶת־אֱלִיאָ֑ב וַיֹּ֕אמֶר אַ֛ךְ נֶ֥גֶד יְהֹוָ֖ה :מְשִׁיחֽוֹ"

HRB...Act 10:36..."The Word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching the good news of peace through Yahshua Messiah, He is Master YAHWEH of all."

NASB..."The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)"

HRB...Psa 78:35...."And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer."

TANAKH..."And they remembered that God is their rock and the Most High God is their Redeemer. להוַֽיִּזְכְּרוּ כִּֽי־אֱלֹהִ֣ים צוּרָ֑ם וְאֵ֥ל עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן גֹּֽאֲלָֽם:"

HRB...Isa 48:17..."Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."

TANAKH..."So said the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you for your profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. יזכֹּֽה־אָמַ֧ר יְהֹוָ֛ה גֹּֽאַלְךָ֖ קְד֣וֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל אֲנִ֨י יְהֹוָ֚ה אֱלֹהֶ֙יךָ֙ מְלַמֶּדְךָ֣ לְהוֹעִ֔יל מַדְרִֽיכְךָ֖ בְּדֶ֥רֶךְ תֵּלֵֽךְ:


HRB...Isa 49:26..."And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob."

TANAKH..."And those who taunt you-I will feed their flesh, and as with sweet wine they shall become drunk [from] their blood; and all flesh shall know that I am the Lord Who saves you, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. כווְהַֽאֲכַלְתִּ֚י אֶת־מוֹנַ֙יִךְ֙ אֶת־בְּשָׂרָ֔ם וְכֶֽעָסִ֖יס דָּמָ֣ם יִשְׁכָּר֑וּן וְיָֽדְע֣וּ כָל־בָּשָׂ֗ר כִּ֣י אֲנִ֚י יְהֹוָה֙ מֽוֹשִׁיעֵ֔ךְ וְגֹֽאֲלֵ֖ךְ אֲבִ֥יר יַֽעֲקֹֽב:

HRB...Isa 60:16...Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

TANAKH..."And you shall suck the milk of nations and the breast of kings you shall suck, and you shall know that I am the Lord, your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. טזוְיָֽנַקְתְּ֙ חֲלֵ֣ב גּוֹיִ֔ם וְשֹׁ֥ד מְלָכִ֖ים תִּינָ֑קִי וְיָדַ֗עַתְּ כִּ֣י אֲנִ֚י יְהֹוָה֙ מֽוֹשִׁיעֵ֔ךְ וְגֹֽאֲלֵ֖ךְ אֲבִ֥יר יַֽעֲקֹֽב:"

Am I to focus on the word "Redeemer" here? Are you suggesting that the term can only apply to Jesus? You do understand the role of a redeemer, I hope? Strangely, the word is missing from the Greek verses. I am seeing it only in the Hebrew.....so what are we to assume here with these horribly mistranslated verses in the HRB?

That God is a "Redeemer" because the one who sends his son to pay a debt is also a redeemer. One who send a savior is also a savior.
Titles apply to more than one person.

The title "Lord" applies to both God and his Christ...it is not a title exclusive to God. Sarah called Abraham "Lord". Nobles in England were called Lords. It simply means "Sir" or "Master".

The word "god" in the Bible is not exclusive to Jehovah either.
Jesus himself said that his Father called his judges in Israel "gods" because of the divine authority they were given. (Psalm 82:6)
John 10:33-36...
"The Jews answered Him, “We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law: ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be nullified), 36 are you saying of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

What did Jesus call himself? He had the perfect opportunity to identify himself here if he was God?....they were accusing him of blasphemy anyway....but he identified himself as "the Son of God"......not Yahweh.

Moses also was made "god" to Pharaoh. Jesus is a "god" because he too has divine authority.

Do you guys do no study at all into the words that are used in the scriptures? If you did, you would not be persuaded by bad translations, to jump to so many wrong conclusions.