A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

That is not a logical deduction. Satan existed before Abraham too, so acording to your logic then Satan is also God YHVH. And all the angels too.

The Spiritual, scriptural, and logical deduction is accurate and the Truth (John 14:6), and here is the explanation:

Your assertion about Satan fails because no part of the Word of God states that Satan existed everlastingly prior to Abraham or any such extant. The same goes for every single angel. Notice in the following that Jesus exists BEFORE any angels were created - even prior to every single the angel.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[Butch5]

Oh... yes, He is, and yes, He has...

You ignore His own words. He said that He came out of the Father. That means He had a beginning.


"Firstborn," in Paul's context, is regarding preeminence, and not merely "born before anyone else" ~ the very same context in which David is made firstborn, though he was actually the last born in his family (after all his brothers). And as you know, Jesus is the last Adam:

“'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit... The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven... As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the Man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven... Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the Man of heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:45-49).[/quote]

And who had preeminence if not the first born?

He does reign forever, but the context there is regarding this age, the age before His return, which will He will bring to a close upon His return. Paul in no way says Jesus will not reign after the close of this age.

You can claim that i want to, but you can't prove that from Scripture. Therefore it's just an assertion.

Yes, and He also said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, and that He and the Father are one. The one true God of Israel is the triune Jehovah.

That's because He did the will of the Father. He spoke the words of the Father. Paul said Jesus was the express image of the Father. However, Paul also said, no man can see the Father. John said no man has seen God at any time. Thus, Jesus cannot be the Father or the one true God. You've got to allow for figures of speech. Jesus and the Father are one in unity. They are unified. They are not both the same God.

Distinct in Person, yes.

In person, in authority, in being.

Agreed. And but you would acknowledge, surely, that Christ Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords.

Grace and peace to you.

During His reign, yes. After the Resurrection all authority was given to Christ. However, as Paul said, the Father is excepted. However, the Father is ultimately the King of Kings and Lord of Lords as Paul says.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:13-16 KJV)

Paul said when Jesus comes back He will show who is the ONLY Potentate, the King of Kings and Lord of lords; whom no man has seen nor can see. So Paul said that the ONLY potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords has not been seen my any man, nor can He be seen by any man. Well, that certainly isn't Jesus, because many people saw Him. That is the Father alone and Paul said He is the ONLY one.

Having an understanding of the timeline and how things are laid out in Scripture helps us to avoid this confusion. The problem is that Christians are taught to proof text passages of Scripture to supposedly support their position. Chapters and verse numbers are one of the worst things to happen to the Bible. It allows Christians to simply pick out a sentence, rip it from it's context, and make a claim. Without chapter and verse numbers Christians would have to read the surrounding context to find the passages. In doing so they would get a better grasp of what those passages actually said.

 

[Keiw]

Oh, so you claim there are two gods based upon that which you wrote regarding John 1:1 in your quoted post.

You disagree with the Word of God because the Word of God states there is One True God (Isaiah 45:5).

No, small g god means-has godlike qualities. It is not calling that one The God as only the Father is called.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

Collosians 1:15--The FIRSTBORN of all creation--All creation proves it meant the first creation.

 

[Keiw]

There is no capitalization in the original Greek (Koine) of the New Testament, and there is no definite article. The NWT is a heretical translation in many places, re-engineered to fit a preconceived set of beliefs.

Grace and peace to you, Keiw.

That is why Ho preceded Theos in Greek so they knew it was capitalized. Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1= a god, small g.

 

[Keiw]

Fact: the Apostle Peter used the direct object with Theos, as in "tou theou" (the God) referring to Jesus when Peter wrote "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

Your words in your post are a LIE where you convey that Lord Jesus is not referred to as "the God" in the NT.

Error. Peter teaches the Father is Jesus' God, he would not contradict himself. 1Peter 1:3

 

[Kermos]

No, He doesn't mention Moses, but the title "I AM" is what the Angel said to Moses. In the passage the Angel or messenger of the Lord appears to Moses and God speaks through Him. The Angel of the Lord in this case is Jesus, He spoke for God in the first person. He said,

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exod. 3:14 KJV)

When Jesus says to the Jews, 'before Abraham was I AM' He's quoting this passage from Exodus. If He was just saying that He existed before Abraham He'd say, before Abraham was, I was. By saying "I AM" He's leading them to the passage in Exodus, telling them that it was Him who spoke to Moses.

Jesus did not say "I was the angel (or messenger) speaking to Moses at the burning bush" in John 8:58.

Jesus is pointing the hearer to "I AM the One" in Exodus 3:14 when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so Jesus Christ's statement indicates that Jesus is God.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I don't mind who responds (though it's the non-Trinitarians I am specifically soliciting answers from). I'm just making sure the focus stays directed to the OP.


Hmm... for starters, what translation is this? "Christ has no favorites" sounds like a paraphrase.

That's a tough one as I'm called a trinitarian by non Trinitarians and a modalist by folks who can't understand the concept of "manifestation" and a division by order and purpose. Serving God is serving God, but true monotheism sees God revealed in three persons, not three persons unified as one God. God is not schizophrenic or Buddhist, splitting Himself up into multiple personalities that forget who they are. Jesus used the term Son of Man only to distinguish Himself as born of flesh.

 

[Kermos]

You're missing the point. Jesus isn't claiming to have existed forever. He's alluding to the burning bush. Jesus didn't exist since eternity past. Paul said that Jesus was the first born of all creation.

NAS Colossians 1:15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Col. 1:15 NAS)

He doesn't reign forever. That's a poor translation. Translators have done a poor job translating the words olam and aion. They do not mean forever. Paul tells us that Jesus must reign until all enemies are put down and then He turns the kingdom over to the Father.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)

Here Paul differentiates between Jesus the Son and God the Father. He says plainly that when all enemies are put down Christ will deliver the Kingdom over to God, the Father, and then Christ will be subject to God, the Father. Paul tells us plainly here that God is the Father.

Jesus said that He proceeded forth and came out of God

The problem is that people equivocate on the word God. The word God is used in Scripture as a title and a reference to the one true God of Israel. People don't distinguish the difference and that's where the confusion comes from. In the Bible the one true God is the Father, Jesus stated that plainly. Paul also said that there is one God, the Father. The word God is used of pagan gods just as it is of the one true God. The Greek word theos is used of deities. Jesus is Divine just as the Father is Divine, however, they are not the same. As we saw from Paul, The Father is the ultimate authority. He is NEVER subject to anyone. And, NO ONE is His equal. Even when all things were put under Christ, He was given all authority, Paul says that the Father was excepted from that. The Father was never under the Son's authority.

Jesus precisely states that He exists forever going back in time with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

You, on the other hand, deny the very thing that Jesus says is absolutely true.

AS TO YOU BRINGING UP 1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-28

Butch5, regarding 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, you have irreconcilable passages for your claim that Jesus is only man not God. You seemed to have missed “the God and Father” and “He is excepted” and “then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.” The words of Lord Jesus “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30) impact 1 Cor 15:24-28 such that Jesus and the Father comprise the One True God. You are confusing the mention of "Son", that is, your thoughts fail to acknowledge that Jesus, truly Man, can relinquish the kingdom per 1 Cor 15:24-28 while Jesus, truly God, reigns forever - see the following quoted passages. Also, “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” as written by the Apostle Paul (1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:15 [King of kings is Jesus], Revelation 19:16 [King of kings is Jesus], John 18:37 [Jesus declares Himself to be King]) the same Apostle Paul that wrote 1 Cor 15:24-28. Also, the Apostle John recorded ‘Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”‘ (Revelation 11:15). There is not contradiction when it is known that Christ is Jesus is God.

AS TO YOU BRINGING UP "FIRSTBORN" IN COLOSSIANS 1:15

Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) in that:

• "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION.
• "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE LEADER (THE FIRSTBORN) OF ALL THE BORN AGAIN (JOHN 3:3-8).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

• In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God.
• In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of truly Man.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

No, small g god means-has godlike qualities. It is not calling that one The God as only the Father is called.

The Apostle John did not write "godlike qualities", so you are wickedly adding to scripture, and that results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

John wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

John statement is definitive, Jesus is God.

 

[Kermos]

Collosians 1:15--The FIRSTBORN of all creation--All creation proves it meant the first creation.

Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) in that:

• "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION.
• "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE LEADER (THE FIRSTBORN) OF ALL THE BORN AGAIN (JOHN 3:3-8).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

• In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God.
• In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of truly Man.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Error. Peter teaches the Father is Jesus' God, he would not contradict himself. 1Peter 1:3

Peter teaches that the Father is God (1 Peter 1:3) and Jesus is God (2 Peter 1:1), moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

You are dead wrong, again.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus did not say "I was the angel (or messenger) speaking to Moses at the burning bush" in John 8:58.

Jesus is pointing the hearer to "I AM the One" in Exodus 3:14 when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so Jesus Christ's statement indicates that Jesus is God.

He didn't say it, it's the conclusion of His statement. He is quoting the passage in Exodus. If by, Jesus is God, you mean He is deity, I agree. If you mean He is the one true God, then I disagree. He said the Father is the one true God.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

True, the son is not his own father. It should be that simple, but somehow the meaning of simple words flies out the window and we end up saying that the son and the Father are one and the same. Go figure!

You are right about the meaning of the word, "god." Corinthians declares that there are actually many gods (1 Cor 8:5), and there are many gods. The Ancient Near Easterner would understand that "god" means someone with power and authority, including other humans. I think not saying God's actual name, Yahweh, causes many problems. His title, "God" is not at all unique, whereas His name, "Yahweh" is quite unique. He used it some 6,800 times in the OT. Odd we hardly ever hear it in the church assemblies though.

Yahweh is Yahweh and Jesus is Jesus. Very simple concept that our Yahweh given brains can actually understand. They're certainly not designed to grasp three people are actually somehow one person. Huge disconnect there.

God bless

Anyone who says Yahweh, is not one who is truly born again.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus precisely states that He exists forever going back in time with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

You, on the other hand, deny the very thing that Jesus says is absolutely true.

Nothing in that statement says Jesus existed in eternity past. It simply says He existed before Abraham. You're reading your beliefs into the passage.

AS TO YOU BRINGING UP 1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-28

Butch5, regarding 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, you have irreconcilable passages for your claim that Jesus is only man not God. You seemed to have missed “the God and Father” and “He is excepted” and “then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.” The words of Lord Jesus “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30) impact 1 Cor 15:24-28 such that Jesus and the Father comprise the One True God. You are confusing the mention of "Son", that is, your thoughts fail to acknowledge that Jesus, truly Man, can relinquish the kingdom per 1 Cor 15:24-28 while Jesus, truly God, reigns forever - see the following quoted passages. Also, “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” as written by the Apostle Paul (1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:15 [King of kings is Jesus], Revelation 19:16 [King of kings is Jesus], John 18:37 [Jesus declares Himself to be King]) the same Apostle Paul that wrote 1 Cor 15:24-28. Also, the Apostle John recorded ‘Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”‘ (Revelation 11:15). There is not contradiction when it is known that Christ is Jesus is God.

You can make stuff up if you want to, but the passage is clear. The Father is never subject to the Son and the Son will be subject to the Father. It's crystal clear. Forcing your beliefs on the passage doesn't change what it says. As for Jesus words, "I and the Father are one", they speak of unity, not person. It's clear to anyone without an agenda that they are two different beings. One can be seen and one can't be. As I said, Jesus Himself said that the Father was the only true God. Thus He excluded Himself. You are arguing against Jesus. He said the Father is the only true God. Do you believe Him or your traditions?

AS TO YOU BRINGING UP "FIRSTBORN" IN COLOSSIANS 1:15

Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) in that:

• "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION.
• "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE LEADER (THE FIRSTBORN) OF ALL THE BORN AGAIN (JOHN 3:3-8).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

• In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God.
• In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of truly Man.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

You don't really worry about what the passages actually say, do you? Paul said that Jesus was the first born of all creation. Jesus Himself said that He came out of God. He didn't say He came out of Himself, He said He came out of God.

I'm always amazed that people argue so vehemently for a doctrine that makes no sense, can't be found in Scripture, and doesn't appear in the church until the 5th century

 

[Ziggy]

And God said, Let there be Light. And God saw the Light that it was good.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

And God saw the Light that it was good.

Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Sorry, I'm not following you here. The passage in Exodus tells us that the Angel of the LORD appeared in the bush. It doesn't say God appeared in the bush. In John Jesus is telling the Jews that it was Him who spoke to Moses.

Christ Jesus is one in the same regardless, as the 3 are in the same, but different identity's. but to the Carnal mind they can not fathom such because it has not been given to them.

One understands who they are and can discern it all. as one is not under delusions of this world.

What the Carnal does, is only make Idols of their gods ? so they can not see past such things. that's why they killed Jesus ! He did not measure up to their Idol ! for they did not have the Holy Spirit ? they were only religious and such does not Save ! it's not about Salvation, to them it's all about works. Mans works ! for they do not know God !

Idolatry is a Sin, such blinds people, it's is of this world.
One who is in the Kingdom of God does not idolise anyone or any thing at all ever ! Idolatry is a carnal Sin. such is always a working of the Devil.
If one idolise a Singer or movie star or game player etc such a one is under delusions ! they do not even know the person themselves truly at all. such is just totally pathetic ! because they have elevated such a one into a delusional state. That's what the leadership of the Jews did with their Idol ? because they were blinded by this world ! St Stephen pointed such out to the fools in Acts and they killed him ! because they were under delusions, hell they even had that man made star or Shield that they even use on the Flag nowadays to represent the Jews ? It is a Godless symbol for crying out loud !
The true symbol of Israel is the Menora in fact and not some bastard work of man symbol that is in fact a curse. Stephen points it all out for what it is in Acts and if one does not understand what Stephen is saying in Acts, one is not Saved.
Remember Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit when he said all that in fact and what did he see ? yes Stephen went to Heaven !

 

[Keiw]

The Apostle John did not write "godlike qualities", so you are wickedly adding to scripture, and that results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

John wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

John statement is definitive, Jesus is God.

No John did not write that. The religion that came out of Rome mistranslated it to fit their false council teaching of God being a trinity.

 

[Butch5]

Christ Jesus is one in the same regardless, as the 3 are in the same, but different identity's. but to the Carnal mind they can not fathom such because it has not been given to them.

One understands who they are and can discern it all. as one is not under delusions of this world.

What the Carnal does, is only make Idols of their gods ? so they can not see past such things. that's why they killed Jesus ! He did not measure up to their Idol ! for they did not have the Holy Spirit ? they were only religious and such does not Save ! it's not about Salvation, to them it's all about works. Mans works ! for they do not know God !

Idolatry is a Sin, such blinds people, it's is of this world.
One who is in the Kingdom of God does not idolise anyone or any thing at all ever ! Idolatry is a carnal Sin. such is always a working of the Devil.
If one idolise a Singer or movie star or game player etc such a one is under delusions ! they do not even know the person themselves truly at all. such is just totally pathetic ! because they have elevated such a one into a delusional state. That's what the leadership of the Jews did with their Idol ? because they were blinded by this world ! St Stephen pointed such out to the fools in Acts and they killed him ! because they were under delusions, hell they even had that man made star or Shield that they even use on the Flag nowadays to represent the Jews ? It is a Godless symbol for crying out loud !
The true symbol of Israel is the Menora in fact and not some bastard work of man symbol that is in fact a curse. Stephen points it all out for what it is in Acts and if one does not understand what Stephen is saying in Acts, one is not Saved.
Remember Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit when he said all that in fact and what did he see ? yes Stephen went to Heaven !

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I posted. However, Stephen didn't go to Heaven. John, writing much later, said no man has ascended into Heaven except Jesus.

 

[Keiw]

Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) in that:

• 
  
  
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE LEADER (THE FIRSTBORN) OF ALL THE BORN AGAIN (JOHN 3:3-8).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

• 
  
  
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God.
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of truly Man.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Jesus teaches he has a God like we do--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- His followers believe him over errors.