A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

BTW @Kermos I am still waiting for an answer to this request.....

Your question has been addressed as much as I deem necessary elsewhere in this thread, except I use the word of God because the Greek Theos means God in English.

No matter how much you desperately try to deceive in your Jesus is not God anti-apostolic testimony, the Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus Christ is God for the testimony of the Apostles is: Jesus is God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14, John 5:18, John 8:58, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, 2 Peter 1:1).

 

[Kermos]

You really don’t listen, do you....?
The Greek word for “god” is “theos” which Strongs primary definition is basically.....”any gods or goddesses”

It can mean any god, a mighty one. Satan is called “theos” so it is not a word used exclusively for Yahweh. Jesus said that human Judges in Israel were called “gods” by Yahweh himself because they had his authority. (John 10:34-36)

Jesus is “a god” in the Greek sense of that word. Because they were polytheistic, the Greeks had no word for a single god who was nameless. The Jews had adopted a tradition of not uttering the divine name and hence the Jewish God was simply referred to as “the God” as we do in English when we refer to a well known personage. Tell someone that Brad Pitt is invited to a function you are attending and what will they ask”......”THE Brad Pitt?”

John 1:1 in Greek doesn’t say what the English translation renders. There are two gods in that verse but only one is “ho theos” (THE God) Yahweh.

I hear and understand Lord Jesus (John 10:27-30). My Lord and King Jesus knows all things, and He imparts knowledge into we who believe Jesus is God for truly Christ is the Wisdom of God in the thoughts of us Christians (1 Corinthians 1:24).

In John 10:34-36, Jesus, who is God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14, John 5:18, John 8:58, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, 2 Peter 1:1), rebukes the Jews, and he refers back to the psalmist rebuking the Jews (Psalm 82:6). In fact, here is what Asaph said that Asaph said "“You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High, Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes.” (Psalm 82:6-7); in other words, both Asaph and Jesus told the people that they are no gods at all and they know not righteousness for God is not like a man that dies and God knows righteousness. Like the Jews @Aunty Jane, you cannot judge what is right (Luke 12:57). The context for "gods" is clear in John 10:34-36 and Psalm 82:6-7, and the word "theos" can be used in a variety of contexts.

As is evident in John 10:34-36 based on the above Truth (John 14:6), Lord and God Jesus (John 20:28) was not saying that there are potentially additional gods before the One True God as you seem to purport, but rather Jesus eliminates the potential for the Jews to be gods.

While Jesus told the Jews that they are not gods, the Apostle John expressed that Jesus is God (John 1:1). The context for "God" is clear in John 1:1 for there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4-5), and the word "theos" can be used in a variety of contexts.

Now, you have a much bigger problem, but more about that in the next post that, Lord willing, I make to you.

You do not hear nor understand Jesus. As a deceiver that says Jesus is not God, despite the testimony of the Word of God, you hear your father Satan (theos for you per your post).

 

[Kermos]

You really don?t listen, do you?.?
The Greek word for "god" is "theos" which Strongs primary definition is basically?.."any gods or goddesses"
It can mean any god, a mighty one. Satan is called "theos" so it is not a word used exclusively for Yahweh. Jesus said that human Judges in Israel were called "gods" by Yahweh himself because they had his authority. (John 10:34-36)
Jesus is "a god" in the Greek sense of that word. Because they were polytheistic, the Greeks had no word for a single god who was nameless. The Jews had adopted a tradition of not uttering the divine name and hence the Jewish God was simply referred to as "the God" as we do in English when we refer to a well known personage. Tell someone that Brad Pitt is invited to a function you are attending and what will they ask"??"THE Brad Pitt?"
John 1:1 in Greek doesn?t say what the English translation renders. There are two gods in that verse but only one is "ho theos" (THE God) Yahweh.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

The everlasting God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[Keiw]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

The Trinitarian interprets "the Lord" here to be one and the same in every verse, referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Paul's readers were being encouraged to serve with sincerity of heart, in fearing God. The non-Trinitarian, however, interprets verses 22-24 to be references to serving God, whereas the phrase in v.24 "Serve Christ the Lord" is a sudden transition to talking about serving the man Jesus Christ.

So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
Hidden In Him

The man Jesus only did his Fathers will. Only taught what the Father taught him to teach.-John 5:30- He said he could do 0 of his own initiative. It was all about the Father to Jesus.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

And there you have it....Yahweh is the only God who carries the added designation of “Almighty”....simply because there are no other gods who are “almighty”...meaning that there is no one more powerful or who has a name that his higher than his own. (Psalm 83:18)

The apostles were in no doubt as to who it was that Jesus taught them was their God (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)....because Yahweh was his God too. (John 20:17) His Father was still his God even after his return to heaven as he promised in Revelation 3:12....
“The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

How does one equal part of God worship himself? How ridiculous!

You do understand that Jesus was not part of a trinity in official church doctrine until over 300 years after Jesus died. How did the OT worshippers not know about this triune god?

Abraham, who was the only person in the Bible called “Yahweh’s friend” never mentioned this threesome. But the strange thing is that Israel knew their God as “one” (Deuteronomy 6:4) How could such an important aspect of the nature of God go unknown for all of Israel’s history?
Why do we find not a single mention of Jesus being part of this triune godhead in any scripture that does not require a lot of suggestion to even be in the realm of possibility?

How could Jesus identify his Father as “the only true God” without including himself....if he was an equal part of this “godhead”? (John 17:3)

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

I’m afraid that your own foundation of belief is on very shaky ground.
Jesus himself admitted to being “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14)
Colossians 1:15 says that he is the “firstborn of all creation”. Does that need twisting to say something else?

With regard to Galatians 1:6-7 I believe that you are part of that perverting of the gospel if you accept what the Bible does not teach. There is no trinity in God’s word.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus's statement that He is "the beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14) is in no way any kind of acknowledgment that He was "the first thing created" or any nonsense along those lines, but rather exactly the same as John's statement about Jesus in the opening verses of the first chapter of his gospel, that "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. He (Jesus) was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him (Jesus), and without Him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made."

If one were to say Jesus's statement in Revelation 3:14 was that He was "the first thing created," that would render Revelation 3:14 diametrically opposed to John 1.

Regarding Colossians 1:15, we can see in Psalm 89 what "firstborn" really means. The Hebrew text of Psa. 89:27 states, "Even I will make him firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth." God is speaking of David, who surely was not the first person born in the world or anywhere close to it; he was not even born before any of his brothers, but rather dead last. So "firstborn" has to mean something other than, woodenly, "born before everyone else." One who is the “firstborn” has pre-eminence above all others. Even the nation of Israel was YHVH's firstborn; YHVH made the the nation of Israel “high above all nations that he made,” Christ Jesus, the Greater David, is the "firstborn" in that He is pre-eminent over all creation, which is Paul's very context in Colossians 1.

Jesus Christ is God, the second Person of the triune Jehovah. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Keiw]

Jesus's statement that He is "the beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14) is in no way any kind of acknowledgment that He was "the first thing created" or any nonsense along those lines, but rather exactly the same as John's statement about Jesus in the opening verses of the first chapter of his gospel, that "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. He (Jesus) was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him (Jesus), and without Him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made."

If one were to say Jesus's statement in Revelation 3:14 was that He was "the first thing created," that would render Revelation 3:14 diametrically opposed to John 1.

Regarding Colossians 1:15, we can see in Psalm 89 what "firstborn" really means. The Hebrew text of Psa. 89:27 states, "Even I will make him firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth." God is speaking of David, who surely was not the first person born in the world or anywhere close to it; he was not even born before any of his brothers, but rather dead last. So "firstborn" has to mean something other than, woodenly, "born before everyone else." One who is the “firstborn” has pre-eminence above all others. Even the nation of Israel was YHVH's firstborn; YHVH made the the nation of Israel “high above all nations that he made,” Christ Jesus, the Greater David, is the "firstborn" in that He is pre-eminent over all creation, which is Paul's very context in Colossians 1.

Jesus Christ is God, the second Person of the triune Jehovah. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Grace and peace to all.

Jesus was created direct-first and last, all other things created through him. Collosians 1:15--The firstborn of all creation. The term all creation proves it meant at the beginning, 0 doubt. He is Gods master worker, he speaks at Proverbs 8 and tells all he was created. Tells all they must listen to him. It is not God speaking, its the being God sent.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

One who truly has the Holy Spirit being truly born again can see clearly that from the case of Man, Jesus is the Christ ! that means that he is ones Lord and Saviour of ones Soul ?
Now that being the case ? No one can come to the Father but through Gods only begotten Son !
Now that's the fact Christ Jesus is God ! as far as humans are concerned ? because we need him ? now no one can go directly to the Father regardless to know the Father ? you still have to go through his only begotten Son !

So OK, one needs two things regardless to understand the Father, One Christ Jesus in fact totally ! and second is the Holy Spirit ?

So tell me how does one come to know Jesus is the Christ ? Through the Holy Spirit !

Now the fact is that with out the two no one can come to the Father in fact ?

Without the unity of the two Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, one can not come to the Father !

Now the 3 are all one in the same in fact !

Now who came from God ? Jesus Christ did in fact and who is the Holy Spirit ?
Well the fact is Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit in fact as well.

How do you get Jesus Christ ? The Father sent him to us ! and also sent the Holy Spirit.

So the Jews had a Spirit of God but did not know him in fact, and not to mention back in the days of the OT if one mentioned God you would be punched out ! for ignorance by the Jews in fact, such was not tolerated ! for they did not know Him ?
Now Jesus disciples had faith in Jesus that he was ? but it was not until Jesus ascended into Heaven that they all knew 100% that he was The Christ = their personal Lord and Saviour of Souls. the only one ! the only way a Human can come to the Father !

Now without all 3 one can not pick up who the Father is in fact and all 3 are as one in all this comprehension in fact, one can not take any part of the 3 out at all ever, for such is ignorance and blasphemy in fact !

Now all 3 are not the same ? but all 3 are part of the same totally united in the one.

In a battery torch you need 3 main parts, 1 the torch 2 the battery and 3 you have to know how to turn it on, so she works ! bingo ! we have light !

So a person needs all 3 to understand the facts, you have to have the Holy Spirit, as without that you have nothing at all. then one needs Jesus Christ ? so that means our Lord and Saviour of your Soul ? who we can only come to understand truly by the Holy Spirit in fact ! and so were do they all come from ? The Father ! You reject one and you are only left with Jewish Godless religious BS mans works dribble or worse.

It's all about Christ Jesus ! or one is under deceptions and delusions of mans works, this world and Jesus said he was not of it !
One must come to Christ Jesus, as he is the only way to the Kingdom of God.
Are you in the Kingdom of God ? I am ! because I am not under delusions of who he truly is in fact. I do not buy Mans works and this world, for I know it is full of deceptions and delusions. I can see, I came to see it the way Jesus Christ seen it. Remember when Jesus was talking to the Devil himself ? The Devil had no power over Jesus at all ? Jesus exposed him and the Devil had no cards to play.

Remember what Jesus said of Nathaniel ? a True Israelite ! why ? because Nathaniel was the epitome of Israel personified ! What was he going to see ? Do you know ? if you don't know that ! you are not a worthy of Israel in fact and not to mention not truly born again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus's statement that He is "the beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14) is in no way any kind of acknowledgment that He was "the first thing created" or any nonsense along those lines, but rather exactly the same as John's statement about Jesus in the opening verses of the first chapter of his gospel, that "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God. He (Jesus) was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him (Jesus), and without Him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made."

If one were to say Jesus's statement in Revelation 3:14 was that He was "the first thing created," that would render Revelation 3:14 diametrically opposed to John 1.

Not so....If you are going to bring John 1:1-2 into the conversation, how many times do we have to go over this scripture that in no way proves a trinity?

Read it in a Greek Interlinear and see that there are two "gods" mentioned in this verse. "Theos" does not mean just Yahweh.....according to Strongs, the primary meaning of "theos" is...
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities."

So because the Greeks had many gods, they all had names to identify them. Since the Jews had stopped using the divine name, the only way to identify this nameless God of the Jews was to use the definite article "ho" (the).

Now read it in the Greek and note where they included "ho" and where they left it out....its such a little word, but in this scripture, makes a world of difference.

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

By rendering the last "theos" as "God" (capital "G") it is not a correct translation of that verse.
The last "theos" does not have the definite article as does the first. There are two "gods" mentioned in this verse, but only one is "ho theos" (Yahweh). The other....who is Jesus who can also be described by this word because it means any deity or divine person. "The Word" is said to be with "ho theos". How can Jesus be "with God" if he was God?

Jesus was not a deity and never claimed to be, but we know that he was of divine origin. As such he could rightly be referred to as "theos"....or "a god" or "divine one". Anyone with divine authority could be identified by this word. Yahweh himself called human judges "gods" because of their divine authority. (John 10:33-36)
Original word studies are important to discover fraudulent translation, and misapplication of original language words....seen clearly in this verse.

Regarding Colossians 1:15, we can see in Psalm 89 what "firstborn" really means. The Hebrew text of Psa. 89:27 states, "Even I will make him firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth." God is speaking of David, who surely was not the first person born in the world or anywhere close to it; he was not even born before any of his brothers, but rather dead last. So "firstborn" has to mean something other than, woodenly, "born before everyone else." One who is the “firstborn” has pre-eminence above all others. Even the nation of Israel was YHVH's firstborn; YHVH made the the nation of Israel “high above all nations that he made,” Christ Jesus, the Greater David, is the "firstborn" in that He is pre-eminent over all creation, which is Paul's very context in Colossians 1.

That is the way you prefer to read the verse but Paul is identifying Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation".....most of the Bible translations I looked up render the verse that way.
The word translated "firstborn" (prōtotokos) requires no tap dancing or scriptural gymnastics.....it says what it says.....

1. the firstborn
   1. of man or beast
      
   2. of Christ, the first born of all creation (Strongs)

Trying to make it say what it doesn't, just makes trinitarians look foolish. It is the same word used for man and beast...the "first born".....the first to arrive....the first created.

Revelation 3:14 also has Jesus himself saying that he is "the beginning of God's creation"....."archē" means....

1. "beginning, origin
   
   
2. the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader" (Strongs)

So whether Christ is the "beginning" or "origin" of God's creation, he is not the 'originator' nor the 'beginner' of it. Yet that is what is implied. It does not say that.

Jesus, according to John 1:18 is "the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father." Now interestingly, the pro-trinitarian translations deliberately mistranslate that verse to say "only begotten son" to draw attention away from the opening words of that verse...."No one has seen God at any time". How many people saw Jesus?

In Greek that verse reads "monogenes theos" (only begotten god) not "monogenes yhios" (only begotten son) yet that is what the majority of translations read. It is fraudulent.

We all know John 3:16 where it says..."For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son".... If it says "yhios" in that well known verse, it would also say that in John 1:18...but this is clearly not the case.....trinitarian bias is at work, deliberately mistranslating verses so as to support their trinity. I think it is disgraceful, personally.

Jesus Christ is God, the second Person of the triune Jehovah. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

No way that is scripturally true. Please give us a clear unequivocal statement where either God or his Christ ever claimed to be one and the same God along with the holy spirit.....If you have to depend on mistranslations and added inference in ambiguous verses then you have no case. Try again....

 

[keithr]

Original word studies are important to discover fraudulent translation, and misapplication of original language words....seen clearly in this verse.

Indeed. That's why I enjoyed watching the video

on the YouTube "The Trinity Delusion" channel. It's nearly 43 minutes long, so to save viewers some time I've written up a summary of what it says:

John’s Prologue

Occasionally we may come across a different interpretation of a passage of Scripture that makes us realise that we had been misunderstanding it for years! For example, you may not have heard the following explanation of the prologue to John’s Gospel - John 1:1-5:

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2) The same was in the beginning with God.
3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.​

In his prologue (John 1:1-5) John is introducing what his gospel is all about – the ministry of Jesus. John uses Genesis language and imagery in his introductory statements. He starts off with “In the beginning”, the same words as the first words of Genesis 1:1. He says that everything that came to be was through the Word (verse 3), just as we see in Genesis (God spoke, and it came to pass). In verse 5 John says, “The light shines in the darkness”, and in Genesis it says there was darkness and God said “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3).

Most Christians have been taught the Trinitarian viewpoint, which assumes that John’s use of Genesis language is to set the time frame of what is occurring in verse 1. But what if that assumption is wrong? Genesis 1:1 is an introductory statement that introduces a description of how God created the heavens and the earth. It is referring to a time period – the six days of creation. The ‘beginning’ was that time period of six days. Although John uses Genesis imagery throughout the first five verses, verse 4 and the latter part of verse 5 do not fit the creation account, but they do perfectly fit the ministry of Jesus, and that was also a time period. This tells us that John may have been referring to the ministry of Jesus.

Trinitarian commentators have themselves observed that John uses creation imagery throughout his Gospel to refer to the new creation. Jesus’ ministry is how the new creation began. The new creation of God is the result of Jesus’ ministry, beginning with his baptism through to his death and resurrection. Jesus is the firstfruits of the new creation of God (“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept”, 1 Corinthians 15:20).

In Genesis, God created by means of His spoken word. But now God creates things anew by means of His word which became flesh - “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth”, John 1:14. For example, humans can now become new creations in Christ Jesus, and this is only because of the ministry of Jesus - “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”, John 1:12,13.

Since John 1:1-5 is his introductory statement, we should expect him to be introducing what his gospel account is about, and what is contained in his gospel, and that is what he is doing right from verse 1. Jesus’ ministry is the beginning of the Christian faith, and Jesus is the author, the beginning, of our salvation and faith, and his ministry is how the new creation began (“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new”, 2 Corinthians 5:17).

Verse one is often used by believers in the Trinity to claim that Jesus was God, despite other Scripture verses that prove that can’t be true. To interpret verse 1 Trinitarians resort to interpretation by imagination. John did not say, “In the beginning was the son”, nor “the son was with God” and nor did he say “the son was God”. Neither did he say “the son became flesh”. Just because in Revelation 19:13 it says the rider on the white horse was named “The word of God”, we should not assume that John meant in his introduction that the Word was God’s son.

In verses 3 and 4 most translations use the word ‘him’. However, unlike English, in Greek nouns have a gender, so inanimate things have a gender. For example petra, a rock, is feminine. The Greek word logos (which means a spoken word, and is translated as ‘word’) is masculine, so the pronoun ‘him’ is used to match the gender of the noun it refers to. It is a matter of grammar. A spoken word, logos, is masculine in Greek, but that doesn’t mean that a spoken word is a person.

Without having knowledge of the Greek language, English speaking readers are easily duped into thinking that John is identifying the ‘word’ of verses 1 and 2 as a person. However, the Greek word translated as ‘him’ (autos) is not equivalent to the English word ‘him’. It would be equally valid to translate it as herself or itself. Likewise the Greek word houtos in verse 2, usually translated as “the same” but sometimes translated as ‘he’, does not necessarily imply it’s referring to a person.

The Greek words autos and houtos are not like the English words him, her and it. We can only deduce which English pronoun to use when referring to the context. The Greek words are more like the English word ‘this’, which can refer to a person or an object, e.g. “This is my wife”, “This is an apple”. John 6:60 is extremely instructive of this, it includes the statement “This word is hard; who is able to hear it?” (YLT), where the words translated as ‘This’, ‘word’ and ‘it’ are Houtos, logos and autos. Likewise the words translated as ‘He’ and ‘him’ in John 1:2-4 should be translated as ‘this’ and ‘it’. So all that the Greek text of verses 1-3 tells us is:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. 2 The word was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through the word; and apart from the word nothing came to be that has come to be.​

In the Trinity world you have God in Genesis creating by means of two different words: by a word that is spoken, and by a person called “the word”. That doesn’t make sense. But if “the word” is referring to the word, or message, proclaimed by the ministry of Jesus, the word Jesus said he kept, his food, his bread, to do the will of the Father and to continue His work, the Good News of the Kingdom of God, then it starts to make a lot more sense.

Mark and Luke also open their Gospel accounts in a similar manner:

Mark 1:1 - The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Luke 1:1-2 (WEB) - Since many have undertaken to set in order a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us, even as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word delivered them to us,

So if the word is the word proclaimed by Jesus during his ministry, what does “the word was with [pros] God, and the word was God” mean? There are numerous examples of the Greek word pros in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint), e.g. Zechariah 1:1 - “In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word [logos] of the LORD unto [pros] Zechariah, … saying,”. This is saying that the word of God was with Zechariah, and Zechariah proclaimed that word. Similarly in John 1:1 it means that the word of God was with God, and it was God Himself expressing the word. It then says that the word was God. Verse 18 says, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. It is Jesus that expressed and proclaimed the Father; the Father was the word that was proclaimed to the world – the word was God. Verse 18 is the summary of John’s prologue, summing up what he introduced in verse 1. The word proclaimed in the ministry of Jesus was the revelation of God, the Father, Himself – God expressing and revealing Himself through Jesus.

(Splitting due to 10,000 character limit.)

 

[keithr]

(Continuing)
As Jesus said in John 14:10, “the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”. John says “the word was with [pros] God” because the word proclaimed was the word God Himself proclaimed, through the man Jesus, and the word proclaimed was God Himself making Himself known, who He is. God’s divine qualities He made known through Jesus – the word Jesus proclaimed was God.

In verse 2, “The word was in the beginning with God”, John clarifies that the word that was with God, was with God in the beginning of Jesus’ ministry. In verse 3, “All things came to be through the word; and apart from the word nothing came to be that has come to be”, John is saying that all things that came to pass in the ministry of Jesus came to pass by means of the word which Jesus proclaimed. In the Genesis creation everything was created through a spoken word, and everything which pertains to the new creation will come to pass by the words proclaimed by God through Jesus.

The Greek of verse 3 can also be translated as “Everything came to pass through the word, and apart from the word nothing came to pass that has come to pass”, or as “Everything happened through the word, and apart from the word nothing happened that has happened” (similar to Young’s Literal Translation except with ‘him’ replaced with ‘the word’).

John also wrote, 1 John 1 (ESV):

(1) That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life -
(2) the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us -
(3) that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
(4) And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.​

 

[PinSeeker]

Not so....If you are going to bring John 1:1-2 into the conversation, how many times do we have to go over this scripture that in no way proves a trinity?

Well, as many times as you want to engage in an exercise of futility, I guess. And, hey, AJ, you can hear that in the way it's actually meant... or the other, opposing way, which you are apparently so prone to do.

Please give us a clear unequivocal statement where either God or his Christ ever claimed to be one and the same God along with the holy spirit.

All through John's gospel we see these unequivocal statements. Elsewhere too, it's shown to us in types and shadows throughout the Old Testament and shown and said throughout the New.

Yes, you disagree, I know. But just the simple abstract concept that a person cannot be separated from his/her word or breath ~ in the sense that you cannot really be separated from what you say or from your breath ~ should be enough.

But alas, one cannot cure himself/herself of blindness, deafness, muteness, or lameness (a reference to Isaiah 35).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus was created...

Nope. He is the great I AM, become man.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Kermos]

And there you have it....Yahweh is the only God who carries the added designation of “Almighty”....simply because there are no other gods who are “almighty”...meaning that there is no one more powerful or who has a name that his higher than his own. (Psalm 83:18)

The apostles were in no doubt as to who it was that Jesus taught them was their God (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)....because Yahweh was his God too. (John 20:17) His Father was still his God even after his return to heaven as he promised in Revelation 3:12....
“The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

How does one equal part of God worship himself? How ridiculous!

You do understand that Jesus was not part of a trinity in official church doctrine until over 300 years after Jesus died. How did the OT worshippers not know about this triune god?

Abraham, who was the only person in the Bible called “Yahweh’s friend” never mentioned this threesome. But the strange thing is that Israel knew their God as “one” (Deuteronomy 6:4) How could such an important aspect of the nature of God go unknown for all of Israel’s history?
Why do we find not a single mention of Jesus being part of this triune godhead in any scripture that does not require a lot of suggestion to even be in the realm of possibility?

How could Jesus identify his Father as “the only true God” without including himself....if he was an equal part of this “godhead”? (John 17:3)


I’m afraid that your own foundation of belief is on very shaky ground.
Jesus himself admitted to being “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14)
Colossians 1:15 says that he is the “firstborn of all creation”. Does that need twisting to say something else?

With regard to Galatians 1:6-7 I believe that you are part of that perverting of the gospel if you accept what the Bible does not teach. There is no trinity in God’s word.

And there you have it, Lord Jesus Christ is YHWH since He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

Regardless how far back in time one projects, the Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus Christ's words of I AM trumpet true, so Jesus is everlasting.

The week before any of the angels were created, Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully, so Jesus is everlasting.

The Apostle Thomas confessed “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28) to the Risen Jesus Christ, so Jesus being God is Apostolic teaching.

YHWH God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one else is everlasting, none other is everlasting God (Isaiah 45:5).

The everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) in that:

• "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION.
• "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE LEADER (THE FIRSTBORN) OF ALL THE BORN AGAIN (JOHN 3:3-8).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

• In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God.
• In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of truly Man.

Emmanuel, Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Keiw]

Nope. He is the great I AM, become man.

Grace and peace to you.

I told you its a mistranslation in the ot--100% fact. I dont make things up.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I told you its a mistranslation in the ot--100% fact. I dont make things up.

The old saying is true...."a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".....
This long cherished belief is so ingrained, that only an explosion will remove it.....I think that explosion is coming very soon.....

 

[Keiw]

The old saying is true...."a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".....
This long cherished belief is so ingrained, that only an explosion will remove it.....I think that explosion is coming very soon.....

Yes no doubt about it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well, as many times as you want to engage in an exercise of futility, I guess. And, hey, AJ, you can hear that in the way it's actually meant... or the other, opposing way, which you are apparently so prone to do.

I do hear it the way its actually meant.....and the evidence has been presented to you as succinctly as I know how.....but I am not the one who determines how you hear it.

All through John's gospel we see these unequivocal statements. Elsewhere too, it's shown to us in types and shadows throughout the Old Testament and shown and said throughout the New.

Perhaps you can present a clear and direct statement from God or his Christ that they are part of a "godhead" with the holy spirit.....who are all equally "God"......I would like to see where John presents God or Christ ever saying that.

Yes, you disagree, I know. But just the simple abstract concept that a person cannot be separated from his/her word or breath ~ in the sense that you cannot really be separated from what you say or from your breath ~ should be enough.

An "abstract concept"...is that what you call it? Since when is the Bible said to have 'abstract concepts' about the nature of God and his son?
The fact that they are called Father and son in the first place is proof that God wanted us to recognize their relationship as we humans would understand it.....The Father as the "Begetter" and the Son as the "Begotten". The Son is the creation of his Father....his "firstborn". (Colossians 1:15)

Who said that the Redeemer had to be God incarnate? Anyone who assumes that has no idea how redemption works.

An immortal God cannot die...nor can mere humans kill God...the idea is ridiculous. The Son was "sent" by his Father, (whom Jesus identified as "the only true God") to give his life for them. (John 17:3) Did Jesus die? If he didn't, the ransom is not paid and we are still doomed.

But alas, one cannot cure himself/herself of blindness, deafness, muteness, or lameness (a reference to Isaiah 35).

Yes, I see that very clearly.....since Isaiah 35 is a prophesy about the future I'll rely on my God to undo the damage that satan has caused and give us back what Adam and his wife lost for us....it wasn't heaven.

 

[keithr]

So "firstborn" has to mean something other than, woodenly, "born before everyone else." One who is the “firstborn” has pre-eminence above all others. Even the nation of Israel was YHVH's firstborn; YHVH made the the nation of Israel “high above all nations that he made,” Christ Jesus, the Greater David, is the "firstborn" in that He is pre-eminent over all creation, which is Paul's very context in Colossians 1.

Yes, that is correct, firstborn can mean chief as well as the first born.

Exodus 4:22

(22) You shall tell Pharaoh, ‘Yahweh says, Israel is my son, my firstborn,​

Exodus 13:2

(2) “Sanctify to me all the firstborn, whatever opens the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of animal. It is mine.”​

However, to be the firstborn it must be born of, or part of that creation. A firstborn of a flock of sheep must be a sheep, a firstborn man must be a man, a firstborn nation must be a nation. So if Jesus was the firstborn of all creation then he must have been part of that creation.

In the Greek (as used in Colossians 1:15) the Greek word that is translated as firtborn is prototokos, which comes from the Greek word protos, meaning chief or first (first in time or place or rank), and tikto, meaning to bring forth, bear, produce.

 

[Kermos]

I do hear it the way its actually meant.....and the evidence has been presented to you as succinctly as I know how.....but I am not the one who determines how you hear it.

No, you don't hear that which Jesus truly means in His recorded words of John 8:58 as well as the Word of God in Exodus 3:14.

The Spiritual and scriptural meaning is revealed in post #241/URL].

Perhaps you can present a clear and direct statement from God or his Christ that they are part of a "godhead" with the holy spirit.....who are all equally "God"......I would like to see where John presents God or Christ ever saying that.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" declares Lord Jesus (John 8:58, and the Spiritual and scriptural meaning is revealed in post #[URL="https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/a-curious-question-for-non-trinitarians.45085/page-13#post-1253737"]241).

"I and the Father are One" declares the Lord Almighty (John 10:30).

No matter how bitter this is in your mouth, Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God with His recorded sayings in John 8:58 and John 10:30.

The fact that they are called Father and son in the first place is proof that God wanted us to recognize their relationship as we humans would understand it.....The Father as the "Begetter" and the Son as the "Begotten". The Son is the creation of his Father....his "firstborn". (Colossians 1:15)

The Father and Son relationship illumines that the Son does the will of the Father as well as the Son has favor in the Father's sight, and the Son knows the Father and the Father knows the Son (Matthew 11:27). To these things humans can relate.

Nonetheless, the Father, the Spirit, and the Son are One God. Unsaved persons cannot understand this Truth - the unbelievers even fight against the Truth.

As to an explanation of the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 see post #234.

Who said that the Redeemer had to be God incarnate? Anyone who assumes that has no idea how redemption works.

The Word of God reveals the Redeemer is God incarnate Whose name is Immanuel, "God with us" (Matthew 1:23), Lord Jesus Christ! This is Apostolic teaching.

God says other sacrifices were insufficient (Isaiah 1:13).

An immortal God cannot die...nor can mere humans kill God...the idea is ridiculous. The Son was "sent" by his Father, (whom Jesus identified as "the only true God") to give his life for them. (John 17:3) Did Jesus die? If he didn't, the ransom is not paid and we are still doomed.

The Son of Man died on the cross. He was sinless, so He was the perfect sacrifice to satisfy the wrath of God.

God did not die; furthermore, God cannot die.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God. See post #234 for scriptural detail.

Yes, I see that very clearly.....since Isaiah 35 is a prophesy about the future I'll rely on my God to undo the damage that satan has caused and give us back what Adam and his wife lost for us....it wasn't heaven.

Perpetrators of damage are people who claim Jesus is not Who Jesus says Jesus is, so you need to see Jesus' words "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:48).

When you say Jesus Christ is not God, then you reject Christ, His sayings, and you disbelieve in Jesus which leads to eternal punishment (Matthew 25 46) -
whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.[/URL]