A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

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jaybird

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Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” = (you are here)

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

Where does the LORD say that we are to believe in a singular god here???
Jesus would never teach us to go after gods, He taught to worship the Most High.

this passage has nothing to do with anything, why do you post it? do you really think people fall for this distraction?

when your theology gets tested, you have a chance to defend it, but you chose to ignore the test, do you not worry that people will think your foolish and not take your words serious?
 

GRACE ambassador

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basing a doctrine on a few verses that could perhaps be taken in a Trinitarian way.
+
MISSION IMPOSSIBLE
Amen! MISSION IMPOSSIBLE2 @Rich R, is to explain WHY God's Word,
in 500 Plain And Clear Passages that JESUS Is not Almighty God! 2 examples:

Here's # 100:

ONLY In The NAME Of JESUS Is there Salvation. There Is Salvation
In NONE OTHER - Acts 4:10-12; 2 Timothy 2:10. And Salvation Belongs
To GOD
- Psalms 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Lamentations 3:26; Isaiah 33:22,
Isaiah 52:10; Psalms 51:14. Since Only In The NAME Of JESUS Is
There Salvation And Salvation Belongs To God, That Simply Means:

►►► JESUS Is God! ◄◄◄
and # 34:

JESUS ALONE Is The Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge Is God
- Isaiah 33:22; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 18:8, Revelation 20:12;
Hebrews 13:4; Romans 2:3, Romans 2:5

Thus, All the verses in the Bible that talk about God Being The Judge,
Refer To JESUS
, Since He Alone Judges. The Father judges no man -
John 5:22. Hence:
►►► JESUS Is God! ◄◄◄

Conclusion: How are we Saved/Judged Apart FROM:

GRACE And Peace...
 
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Rich R

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Awesome - but your mission is not complete for HE desires for you to know Elohim TRUTH of Genesis going Forward.

Genesis is the Foundation of TRUTH, Beginning with the plurality of Elohim.
Genesis is the Foundation of the Gospel of Elohim.
Genesis vividly describes and pictures who the "Let Us/Our/Our IS = the Plurality of Elohim.
Well, I think I have a pretty good handle on the nature of Jesus and God, namely that Jesus is God's son.
 

Rich R

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John 5:22,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Interesting that one part of God gave something to another part of God. Prior to that, I guess they weren't really equal, given that one had something another didn't have.

John 3:35,

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Oh...it looks like one part of God gave all things to another part. I guess there was a time that one part had nothing. Interesting to say the least

Matt 11:27,

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
The same idea here as John 3:35, but we learn even more. By any grammatical rules, the son here is called the only "man" that knows God. Of course he revealed God to us (john 1:18) so now any man who wants to know God can.

1 Cor 15:23-28,

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

All things will be put under Jesus's feet (v 25), with the exception of God (v27). So God will put everything under His feet with the exception of Himself? What? Does that make any sense?

Even more weird, verse 28 says one part of God will be subject to another part of God. We better change the Trinity doctrine. We can't have it say all parts are equal. Obviously, one part has more authority than another. And where does the Holy Ghost fit in with this? Will "he" retain equal status with the Father, or will "he" also be subjected to Him? In general, the poor Holy Ghost gets little attention in the trinity. I mean, the scriptures say Jesus is one with the Father (as are we I might add [John 17:21-22]), but it never says that about the Holy Ghost. He just doesn't get nearly the air time as the other two.

Oh my, the web we weave when making Jesus God!
 
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David in NJ

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John 5:22,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Interesting that one part of God gave something to another part of God. Prior to that, I guess they weren't really equal, given that one had something another didn't have.

John 3:35,

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Oh...it looks like one part of God gave all things to another part. I guess there was a time that one part had nothing. Interesting to say the least

Matt 11:27,

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
The same idea here as John 3:35, but we learn even more. By any grammatical rules, the son here is called the only "man" that knows God. Of course he revealed God to us (john 1:18) so now any man who wants to know God can.

1 Cor 15:23-28,

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

All things will be put under Jesus's feet (v 25), with the exception of God (v27). So God will put everything under His feet with the exception of Himself? What? Does that make any sense?

Even more weird, verse 28 says one part of God will be subject to another part of God. We better change the Trinity doctrine. We can't have it say all parts are equal. Obviously, one part has more authority than another. And where does the Holy Ghost fit in with this? Will "he" retain equal status with the Father, or will "he" also be subjected to Him? In general, the poor Holy Ghost gets little attention in the trinity. I mean, the scriptures say Jesus is one with the Father (as are we I might add [John 17:21-22]), but it never says that about the Holy Ghost. He just doesn't get nearly the air time as the other two.

Oh my, the web we weave when making Jesus God!

Rich, all the passages you quoted pertain to the 'Son of Man' whereby the Eternal Word who was Elohim in the Beginning - Equal with the Father, Emptied Himself and came to earth, making Himself lower then the angels.
Please read this carefully Rich - thank you - Philippians ch2

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
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David in NJ

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Jesus would never teach us to go after gods, He taught to worship the Most High.

this passage has nothing to do with anything, why do you post it? do you really think people fall for this distraction?

when your theology gets tested, you have a chance to defend it, but you chose to ignore the test, do you not worry that people will think your foolish and not take your words serious?

lol - you and the unbelieving Jews share company, but not with the FATHER, nor with the SON, nor with the HOLY SPIRIT.
 

Rich R

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Rich, all the passages you quoted pertain to the 'Son of Man' whereby the Eternal Word who was Elohim in the Beginning - Equal with the Father, Emptied Himself and came to earth, making Himself lower then the angels.
Please read this carefully Rich - thank you - Philippians ch2

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I did read Philippians carefully, and the first thing I noticed was that we were to have the same mind as Christ. I see two possibilities.

1) Jesus thought he was God and therefore we are to also think we are God.

2) Jesus had virtually the same authority as God. God was in him (2 Cor 5:19) and gave him that authority (Matt 11:27, John 3:35). Despite his God given power and authority, he didn't take advantage of that to serve himself, but served others instead. Pharaoh and Joseph foreshadowed the relationship between God and Jesus, namely Joseph had complete authority over Egypt with the exception that Pharaoh retained the throne. God sent Jesus. He didn't send Himself. Suffice it to say, the agent, or the one sent, was considered to be virtually identical to the one who sent him. Check out Jewish idea of agency (Shaliah - Wikipedia)


Choose wisely
 

tigger 2

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Rich, all the passages you quoted pertain to the 'Son of Man' whereby the Eternal Word who was Elohim in the Beginning - Equal with the Father, Emptied Himself and came to earth, making Himself lower then the angels.
Please read this carefully Rich - thank you - Philippians ch2

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
.........................................
Phil. 2:6 (“grasp,” “held onto”?)

Harpagmos

Now notice how these two very trinitarian Bibles have rendered it:

1. “He did not think to snatch at [harpagmos, ἁρπαγμὸς] equality with God” - NEB.

2. “He did not think that by force [harpagmos] he should try to become equal with God” - TEV (and GNB).

We believe that the translations by the trinitarian NEB and TEV Bibles of this part of Phil. 2:6 must be the intended meaning of the original writer of this scripture because (in part, at least) of the obvious meaning of the New Testament (NT) Greek word harpagmos (ἁρπαγμὸς).

There could be some doubt about the meaning of the word harpagmos if we looked only at the NT Greek Scriptures (since harpagmos occurs only at Phil. 2:6 in the entire New Testament). We would then only have the meaning of the source words for harpagmos to determine its intended meaning.

Even so, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (by trinitarian writer and trinitarian publisher) tells us that harpagmos means “plunder” and that it comes from the source word harpazo which means: “to seize ... catch away, pluck, take (by force).” - #725 & 726, Abingdon Press, 1974 printing.

“725 harpagmós – to seize, especially by an open display of force. See 726 (harpazō).” - HELPS Word-studies, copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

And the New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’ ”

Even the very trinitarian NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, had to admit that harpagmos is “akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force.” - p. 887, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

“have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!

We can easily see this “taken by force” meaning in all the uses of harpazo (the source word for harpagmos) in the New Testament. But since harpagmos itself is used only at Phil. 2:6 in the NT, Bible scholars must go to the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the NT), the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint harpagmos (in its forms of harpagma and harpagmata) is used 16 times according to trinitarian Zondervan’s A Concordance of the Septuagint, p. 32, 1979 printing. And in every case its meaning is the taking of something away from someone by force. Here they are in the Bagster Septuagint as published by Zondervan: Lev. 6:4 “plunder;” Job 29:17 “spoil” (a “prize” taken by force); Ps. 61:10 (Ps. 62:10 in most modern Bibles) “robberies;” Is. 42:22 “prey;” Is. 61:8 “robberies;” Ezek. 18:7 “plunder;” Ezek. 18:12 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:16 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:18 “plunder;” Ezek. 19:3 “prey;” Ezek. 19:6 “take prey;” Ezek. 22:25 “seizing prey;” Ezek. 22:27 “get dishonest gain” (through the use of “harpazo” or “force”); Ezek. 22:29 “robbery;” Ezek. 33:15 “has robbed;” and Malachi 1:13 “torn victims” (compare ASV).

So, in spite of some trinitarians’ reasonings and euphemistic renderings, it is clear from the way it was always used in scripture that harpagmos means either taking something away by force (a verb), or something which has been taken by force (a noun).

Furthermore, the context of Phil. 2:3-8 indicates how Phil. 2:6 should be understood. The context stresses the concept of humility and obedience, and Phil. 2:6 itself is clearly meant as the prime example of this for all Christians. The extremely trinitarian The Amplified Bible, for example, translates Phil. 2:3, 5 this way:

“Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself.... Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus. - Let Him be your example in humility.”

Then that very example of Jesus (Phil. 2:6-8) is given. - Cf. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, vol. 1, p. 547.

Does - "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,"- KJV - really show Jesus as an example of humility? As regarding others as better than himself?
 
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David in NJ

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I did read Philippians carefully, and the first thing I noticed was that we were to have the same mind as Christ. I see two possibilities.

1) Jesus thought he was God and therefore we are to also think we are God.

2) Jesus had virtually the same authority as God. God was in him (2 Cor 5:19) and gave him that authority (Matt 11:27, John 3:35). Despite his God given power and authority, he didn't take advantage of that to serve himself, but served others instead. Pharaoh and Joseph foreshadowed the relationship between God and Jesus, namely Joseph had complete authority over Egypt with the exception that Pharaoh retained the throne. God sent Jesus. He didn't send Himself. Suffice it to say, the agent, or the one sent, was considered to be virtually identical to the one who sent him. Check out Jewish idea of agency (Shaliah - Wikipedia)

Choose wisely

2.) You are spot on with the picture of Joseph and Pharoah = 100%
Again, this all pertains to Philippians ch2

1a.) BEFORE the Son of Man/JESUS was Elohim FATHER Elohim WORD/SON Elohim HOLY SPIRIT = Echad Elohim

1b.) to assumes that we are God is the Big Lie from Satan in the Garden

1c.) Therefore only 1a.) can be TRUTH
 

David in NJ

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.........................................
Phil. 2:6 (“grasp,” “held onto”?)

Harpagmos

Now notice how these two very trinitarian Bibles have rendered it:

1. “He did not think to snatch at [harpagmos, ἁρπαγμὸς] equality with God” - NEB.

2. “He did not think that by force [harpagmos] he should try to become equal with God” - TEV (and GNB).

We believe that the translations by the trinitarian NEB and TEV Bibles of this part of Phil. 2:6 must be the intended meaning of the original writer of this scripture because (in part, at least) of the obvious meaning of the New Testament (NT) Greek word harpagmos (ἁρπαγμὸς).

There could be some doubt about the meaning of the word harpagmos if we looked only at the NT Greek Scriptures (since harpagmos occurs only at Phil. 2:6 in the entire New Testament). We would then only have the meaning of the source words for harpagmos to determine its intended meaning.

Even so, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance (by trinitarian writer and trinitarian publisher) tells us that harpagmos means “plunder” and that it comes from the source word harpazo which means: “to seize ... catch away, pluck, take (by force).” - #725 & 726, Abingdon Press, 1974 printing.

“725 harpagmós – to seize, especially by an open display of force. See 726 (harpazō).” - HELPS Word-studies, copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

And the New American Standard Concordance of the Bible (also by trinitarians) tells us: “harpagmos; from [harpazo]; the act of seizing or the thing seized.” And, “harpazo ... to seize, catch up, snatch away.” Notice that all have to do with taking something away by force. - # 725 & #726, Holman Bible Publ., 1981.

In fact, the trinitarian The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1967, pp. 436, 437, vol. III, tells us:

“We cannot find any passage where [harpazo] or any of its derivatives [which include harpagmos] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’ [as preferred in many trinitarian translations of Phil. 2:6]. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize’, ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense [‘snatch violently’] into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’ ”

Even the very trinitarian NT Greek expert, W. E. Vine, had to admit that harpagmos is “akin to harpazo, to seize, carry off by force.” - p. 887, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

And the trinitarian The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology tells us that the majority of Bible scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course)

“have taken harpagmos to mean a thing plundered or seized..., and so spoil, booty or a prize of war.” - p. 604, vol. 3, Zondervan, 1986.

The key to both these words (harpagmos and its source word, harpazo) is: taking something away from someone by force and against his will. And if we should find a euphemism such as “prize” used in a trinitarian Bible for harpagmos, it has to be understood only in the same sense as a pirate ship forcibly seizing another ship as its “prize”!

We can easily see this “taken by force” meaning in all the uses of harpazo (the source word for harpagmos) in the New Testament. But since harpagmos itself is used only at Phil. 2:6 in the NT, Bible scholars must go to the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the NT), the Septuagint.

In the Septuagint harpagmos (in its forms of harpagma and harpagmata) is used 16 times according to trinitarian Zondervan’s A Concordance of the Septuagint, p. 32, 1979 printing. And in every case its meaning is the taking of something away from someone by force. Here they are in the Bagster Septuagint as published by Zondervan: Lev. 6:4 “plunder;” Job 29:17 “spoil” (a “prize” taken by force); Ps. 61:10 (Ps. 62:10 in most modern Bibles) “robberies;” Is. 42:22 “prey;” Is. 61:8 “robberies;” Ezek. 18:7 “plunder;” Ezek. 18:12 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:16 “robbery;” Ezek. 18:18 “plunder;” Ezek. 19:3 “prey;” Ezek. 19:6 “take prey;” Ezek. 22:25 “seizing prey;” Ezek. 22:27 “get dishonest gain” (through the use of “harpazo” or “force”); Ezek. 22:29 “robbery;” Ezek. 33:15 “has robbed;” and Malachi 1:13 “torn victims” (compare ASV).

So, in spite of some trinitarians’ reasonings and euphemistic renderings, it is clear from the way it was always used in scripture that harpagmos means either taking something away by force (a verb), or something which has been taken by force (a noun).

Furthermore, the context of Phil. 2:3-8 indicates how Phil. 2:6 should be understood. The context stresses the concept of humility and obedience, and Phil. 2:6 itself is clearly meant as the prime example of this for all Christians. The extremely trinitarian The Amplified Bible, for example, translates Phil. 2:3, 5 this way:

“Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself.... Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus. - Let Him be your example in humility.”

Then that very example of Jesus (Phil. 2:6-8) is given. - Cf. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, vol. 1, p. 547.

i see you are twisting scripture again = the way of the serpent
 

Rich R

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Furthermore, the context of Phil. 2:3-8 indicates how Phil. 2:6 should be understood. The context stresses the concept of humility and obedience, and Phil. 2:6 itself is clearly meant as the prime example of this for all Christians. The extremely trinitarian The Amplified Bible, for example, translates Phil. 2:3, 5 this way:

“Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself.... Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus. - Let Him be your example in humility.”

Then that very example of Jesus (Phil. 2:6-8) is given. - Cf. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, vol. 1, p. 547.
I think Phil 2 is a great parallel with the first Adam. Adam thought it'd be a great idea to be God. Jesus didn't make the same mistake. He could have, but by his free will, he chose to do always what the Father told him to do. What a fantastic story! Of course if we see it as God always did what God wanted Himself to do then it's a total mental disconnect and means nada! Getting the two main characters straight makes the movie go from a grainy black and white to an incredibly brilliant technicolor.

I know the difference, because, as with most new Christians, I was under the impression Jesus was God. Never made any sense and I suppose that's why I saw the movie in black and white. The first time someone mentioned a few key verses to me that showed Jesus was not God I ate it up. No hesitation on my part to change my thinking. Finally, I didn't have to understand God as someone I couldn't understand. No more taking nonsensical things by faith.
 

Pierac

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I think you are not using the Biblical meaning of death being separation. Physical death is when the soul/spirit is separated from the body.

Much love!

Come on Mark.... Do you really think the Soul/Spirit are the same??? No grabbing ankles here... Time for some education!

The point you miss is that the spirit is not the same as the soul. The Soul does not return to God at death, but the Spirit does! As Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Psalms 146:4 clearly teaches!

Read Psalms 146:4 ... and note it does not teach his body returns to the earth but “he” or his “thoughts.”

(Psa 146:4)
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

(Ecc 12:7)
and the dust (body) returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath arûḥ) returns to God who gave it.


Other support verses are…

(Gen 2:7)
The Spirit is the breath of life

(Job 7:21)
"Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

(Psa 104:29)
You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier’s Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.

"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).

Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).

In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away they die.

Examples:

Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if His human/soul is in heaven you are not truly dead.

If we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches… (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Read again what Jesus said… Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul as You and the Westminster Confession teaches. An example that

supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.

Do not miss this connection Mark!!! Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades!

Now you know why I don't have a Pastor or Church/Cult telling me what to believe, I get it from the Father

Paul


 
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Pierac

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You corrupt scripture for your own pleasure.
The Holy Spirit exposes your false doctrine of twisting scripture.

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

This is your fate: Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

So you like Revelations....

Read Chapter 4 and 5 and pay attention who sits on the throne and whom is worthy to approach Him... You never saw this did you!!!

Rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne....
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

I have been sent to open your eyes silly child! Get ready!!!

Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.....
Wait.... Hollywood movie time... Rev 5:3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
Rev 5:4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;

Climax coming....

Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. Rev 5:7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

David, There is ONLY ONE GOD sitting on the throne... And there is only one Man (Jesus) ... whom is worthy to take the Book from the one God on the throne!... (read the other Paul...1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

There is no Trinity here David.... Only God on the throne and Jesus whom is worthy to take the BOOK from GOD!!!!

Pay attention... God is making me Balaam’s Ass... To You!
You think I take pride in that???

Paul
 
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Pierac

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"Jesus was part of God's plan............" is a human error statement and cannot be found in Scripture.
You are a false teacher by speaking on your own accord against the Word of God.

It is that simple and that dangerous for you.

Who foretold this long ago?
Who announced it from ancient times?
Was it not I, the LORD?
There is no other God but Me,
a righteous God and Savior;

there is none but Me.
Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;
for I am God,
and there is no other.
By Myself I have sworn;
truth has gone out from My mouth,
a word that will not be revoked:
Every knee will bow before Me,
every tongue will swear allegiance.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place

and gave Him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Do you even know what your posting or just throw out a bunch of scripture so others .... kinda... may... hopefully.. think you know what your talking about?

You bolded "there is no other God but Me"
Then fail to admit Jesus' teaches and preaches about His God... So tell us about the God of Jesus, or explain...There is no other God but Me when Jesus claims to have a God!!

I'm confused?

So let's settle this matter here and now.... for all to see!!!!

A simple Yes or No question....

David do you believe scripture or the traditions of men? Your answer will tell!!!

Does Jesus have a GOD???

Simple Yes or No answer will do please


Silly Child
Paul
 

Pierac

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+

Amen! MISSION IMPOSSIBLE2 @Rich R, is to explain WHY God's Word,
in 500 Plain And Clear Passages that JESUS Is not Almighty God! 2 examples:

Here's # 100:

ONLY In The NAME Of JESUS Is there Salvation. There Is Salvation
In NONE OTHER - Acts 4:10-12; 2 Timothy 2:10. And Salvation Belongs
To GOD
- Psalms 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Lamentations 3:26; Isaiah 33:22,
Isaiah 52:10; Psalms 51:14. Since Only In The NAME Of JESUS Is
There Salvation And Salvation Belongs To God, That Simply Means:

►►► JESUS Is God! ◄◄◄
and # 34:

JESUS ALONE Is The Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge Is God
- Isaiah 33:22; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 18:8, Revelation 20:12;
Hebrews 13:4; Romans 2:3, Romans 2:5

Thus, All the verses in the Bible that talk about God Being The Judge,
Refer To JESUS
, Since He Alone Judges. The Father judges no man -
John 5:22. Hence:
►►► JESUS Is God! ◄◄◄

Conclusion: How are we Saved/Judged Apart FROM:

GRACE And Peace...

Have no idea what you just posted? Just some verses taken out of context and made into a poem?

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the
heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ
. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God
accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:


"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.


Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

Come on Grace... You can do better!
Paul
 

David in NJ

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Do you even know what your posting or just throw out a bunch of scripture so others .... kinda... may... hopefully.. think you know what your talking about?

You bolded "there is no other God but Me"
Then fail to admit Jesus' teaches and preaches about His God... So tell us about the God of Jesus, or explain...There is no other God but Me when Jesus claims to have a God!!
I'm confused?

So let's settle this matter here and now.... for all to see!!!!

A simple Yes or No question....

David do you believe scripture or the traditions of men? Your answer will tell!!!

Does Jesus have a GOD???
Simple Yes or No answer will do please
Silly Child
Paul

What in Post #1,034 do you not understand?

The LORD has sworn that every knee shall bow before HIM and confess JESUS CHRIST is LORD............
 
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David in NJ

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Do you even know what your posting or just throw out a bunch of scripture so others .... kinda... may... hopefully.. think you know what your talking about?

You bolded "there is no other God but Me"
Then fail to admit Jesus' teaches and preaches about His God... So tell us about the God of Jesus, or explain...There is no other God but Me when Jesus claims to have a God!!

I'm confused?

So let's settle this matter here and now.... for all to see!!!!

A simple Yes or No question....

David do you believe scripture or the traditions of men? Your answer will tell!!!

Does Jesus have a GOD???

Simple Yes or No answer will do please


Silly Child
Paul

i know exactly why JESUS said: "to my God and your God" - right now you do not....

Can you answer to THIS = Isaiah ch45

Was it not I, the YAHWEH/LORD?
There is no other Elohim but Me,
a righteous El and Savior;
there is none but Me
.
Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;
for I am El,
and there is no other.

Question #1 - Since there is no other True Elohim and Elohim says here YAHWEH is EL = to WHOM then, must you turn to that you may be saved???
Answer:
By Myself I have sworn;
truth has gone out from My mouth,
a word that will not be revoked:
Every knee will bow before Me, = at the Name of JESUS, of those in Heaven on earth and under the earth
every tongue will swear allegiance. = every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


When you are on you knees and face, prostrate before YAHshuah, you will be confessing to YAHWEH = JESUS
 
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marks

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Come on Mark.... Do you really think the Soul/Spirit are the same??? No grabbing ankles here... Time for some education!
Your condescending attitude . . . another word for arrogance, get's old fast. So if you find I don't reply, chalk it up to that.

Not everyone has a spirit, but everyone dies and everyone will stand before God in judgment. When you die a child of God, your spirit will leave your body. When you die not a child of God, your soul will leave your body.

So I write, Death is when the soul/spirit is separated from the body. And you mistake this to mean something else, and launch on your "grab your ankles" show, with fonts and colors and derision, and what a bunch of vanity!

So there it is. You misunderstood, and put yourself on display.

Much love!

Edit to add . . . I won't be responding after this.
 
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jaybird

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lol - you and the unbelieving Jews share company, but not with the FATHER, nor with the SON, nor with the HOLY SPIRIT.

i think thats what Jim Jones said to his people before they drank the koolaid. this is why we test things
 

David in NJ

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i think thats what Jim Jones said to his people before they drank the koolaid. this is why we test things

ABSOLUTELY test and examine with precision.
There is only one way to do this: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19

You know, i never liked cool-aid. But i love Eternal Spring Water that comes from His Throne and Springs UP inside me.

When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.) “You are a Jew,” said the woman. “How can You ask for a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.) Jesus answered, “If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” “Sir,” the woman replied, “You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where then will You get this living water? Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us this well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock?” Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”
 
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