A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[David in NJ]

I would really appreciate it if you would explain why and how you conclude that all the scholars quoted in Tigger 2’s comment are wrong about the plural of majesty. Are you able to translate Ancient Hebrew or Koine Greek without using any reference works. You can’t expect others to accept your teaching based on what you claim the spirit taught you.

Let's see if you have the Spirit of Truth, which only bears witness to the TRUTH.
i know the Apostle John had HIM when he wrote his Gospel.
i know Moses had HIM when he wrote the Torah.
i know Isaiah had HIM when he wrote Isaiah.
and i know i have HIM for Christ lives in me, for His Word is in my heart = "the Hope of Glory."

This is the Declaration of the Holy Spirit:

"In the beginning Elohim......In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"In the beginning Elohim created....Through Him/Word all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

"In the beginning Elohim......No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known."

"Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness......and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

 

[David in NJ]

Are you saying that Jesus isn’t just God but that he is the Father? Are you a modalist?

NO

The Gospel was first Prophesied by the LORD in the Garden.
To give everyone a clear picture of HIS Gospel, the LORD created and established THREE men that would reveal HIS Gospel:
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness = 3x).

AFTER these THREE men, the LORD would appear to Moses, confirmed HIS Salvation = the Blood of the Lamb and then tell Moses who HE IS.

And ELOHIM said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Moreover Elohim said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Yahweh Elohe of your fathers, the Elohe Abraham, Elohe Isaac, Elohe Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

 

[DavidB]

Let's see if you have the Spirit of Truth, which only bears witness to the TRUTH.
i know the Apostle John had HIM when he wrote his Gospel.
i know Moses had HIM when he wrote the Torah.
i know Isaiah had HIM when he wrote Isaiah.
and i know i have HIM for Christ lives in me, for His Word is in my heart = "the Hope of Glory."

This is the Declaration of the Holy Spirit:

"In the beginning Elohim......In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"In the beginning Elohim created....Through Him/Word all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

"In the beginning Elohim......No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known."

"Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness......and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

So I gather you are not willing to explain all the references that show you are misapplying Elohim. Would you be willing to explain why if you believe that Jesus is God the Son you would quote “if you have seen me you have seen the Father.” Which is it? Is Jesus the Son or the Father. You are implying you think he is both so I ask if you are a modalist. I won’t even get into where your Holy Ghost is.

 

[BarneyFife]

I wrote the following some 4 or 5 years ago, and thought it may be of interest...
So I have been reading through Ephesians when I came to this...
5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
I have always cherished those scriptures, having believed that with all of God's recommendations and commandments, comes the power to accomplish them, and I thank my heavenly Father for the love of my life, and for granting whatever was necessary to ensure our relationship grew despite the many ups and downs, ebbs and flows, of what will soon be 40 years of marriage.. But then I came across the following little gem, and am seeing this in a new light. The 'trinity' has for some time been for me a focus of study and attention. The several inconsistencies and contradictions between scripture and the creeds and 'fundamental beliefs' of the various churches which teach one or another form of trinitarian doctrine are often rooted in the rejection of a real literal Father/Son relationship between Jesus and God before the incarnation at Bethlehem. The lack of harmony between the presumed co-equalty of the 3 persons of the godhead and a literal Father/Son relationship, results in a metaphorical skewing of scripture that ultimately translates as a God who did not give His Son, but someone else. A co-partner, or whatever. So after reading the following, might I now suggest that here is empirical proof from Paul that the Father indeed did give His Son? That the Son left the Father's side in order to 'leave His eternal home' to become one with His bride, the church? "For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones....that they two may become one flesh". Did not Christ, the literal only begotten Son, truly leave His Father's side?
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

There is a common theme throughout the Bible that true sonship is actually about likeness in character, much more so than about genetics. I really believe the many controversies over the nature of God are one of many tricks of the devil calculated to get us to focus on things we can't understand, to the detriment of more useful things that God has made plain and eschatologically and soteriologically pertinent. I believe what the Bible plainly says about God and, while I respect the right of others to form their own priorities and opinions, I think that to pigeonhole God's substance (just using that term makes me feel like I need to remove my shoes) into an -ism is equally as dangerous as trying to debunk such an -ism. The mystery of the incarnation of Christ is a subject we will never understand. The fact that God is a spirit (I think this declaration by the Saviour is generally accepted as referring to the Father) and yet we see Him with physical characteristics in Daniel 7:9 is a mystery I cannot fathom. It was common for those who were leaders at the time of the Great Awakening (and even the Protestant Reformation) to set aside effectively non-essential points they could not agree on for the furtherance of the Gospel. Of course, another trick of the devil is to get men to brush aside issues that great men of Bible scholarship cannot agree on. Ultimately, understanding/spiritual discernment will only come to the fully consecrated (a discipline that has never been popular); the wicked shall not understand (Daniel 12:10). I'm afraid, my friend, this is not really a reply to your post as much as a disjointed group of general remarks on perhaps a broader subject.

You know me--I have a neurotic phobia of "doubtful disputations."

 

[David in NJ]

So I gather you are not willing to explain all the references that show you are misapplying Elohim. Would you be willing to explain why if you believe that Jesus is God the Son you would quote “if you have seen me you have seen the Father.” Which is it? Is Jesus the Son or the Father. You are implying you think he is both so I ask if you are a modalist. I won’t even get into where your Holy Ghost is.

Does not the very words of the LORD make it clear?
(and Yes, you do not know where the Holy Spirit is even though that is clear as well)

So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not valid.” Jesus replied, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going.
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone; I am with the Father who sent Me. Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”

“Where is Your Father?” they asked Him.

“You do not know Me or My Father,” Jesus answered. “If you knew Me, you would know My Father as well.”

 

[David in NJ]

There is a common theme throughout the Bible that true sonship is actually about likeness in character, much more so than about genetics. I really believe the many controversies over the nature of God are one of many tricks of the devil calculated to get us to focus on things we can't understand, to the detriment of more useful things that God has made plain and eschatologically and soteriologically pertinent. I believe what the Bible plainly says about God and, while I respect the right of others to form their own priorities and opinions, I think that to pigeonhole God's substance (just using that term makes me feel like I need to remove my shoes) into an -ism is equally as dangerous as trying to debunk such an -ism. The mystery of the incarnation of Christ is a subject we will never understand. The fact that God is a spirit (I think this declaration by the Saviour is generally accepted as referring to the Father) and yet we see Him with physical characteristics in Daniel 7:9 is a mystery I cannot fathom. It was common for those who were leaders at the time of the Great Awakening (and even the Protestant Reformation) to set aside effectively non-essential points they could not agree on for the furtherance of the Gospel. Of course, another trick of the devil is to get men to brush aside issues that great men of Bible scholarship cannot agree on. Ultimately, understanding/spiritual discernment will only come to the fully consecrated (a discipline that has never been popular); the wicked shall not understand (Daniel 12:10). I'm afraid, my friend, this is not really a reply to your post as much as a disjointed group of general remarks on perhaps a broader subject.

You know me--I have a neurotic phobia of "doubtful disputations."

Liked your post and noticed at the very bottom the scripture about the Sabbath day.

Do you believe it remains a specific day of the week???

 

[DavidB]

Does not the very words of the LORD make it clear?
(and Yes, you do not know where the Holy Spirit is even though that is clear as well)

So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not valid.” Jesus replied, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going.
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone; I am with the Father who sent Me. Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”

“Where is Your Father?” they asked Him.

“You do not know Me or My Father,” Jesus answered. “If you knew Me, you would know My Father as well.”

Jehovah’s Word makes it very clear. It is your words that reflect confusion. Moralism often surfaces in trinitarian arguments. A very clear verse is 1 Corinthians 11:3. It says that God is the head of Christ as Christ is the head of man. If God and Christ are coequal do you believe that Christ and man are coequal?

 

[APAK]

Jehovah’s Word makes it very clear. It is your words that reflect confusion. Moralism often surfaces in trinitarian arguments. A very clear verse is 1 Corinthians 11:3. It says that God is the head of Christ as Christ is the head of man. If God and Christ are coequal do you believe that Christ and man are coequal?

1 Cor 11:3 is but one of many clear statements that God is NOT Christ or equal to his Father, period! And yet Trinitarians will even defy this verse and attempt to water it down or add in some weak excuse for what it really means, and sometimes dismiss it entirely. Trinitarians must be in deep mental and even spiritual denial when scripture clearly states Christ is not and never was God and never will be God. How can they deny what the word of God clearly states, to refuse to acknowledge it, is the height of self-pride and wicked thought. They are clinging to a theory of pagan nonsense this Trinity, that is founded on their grand ignorant inventions such as the incarnation (of who: the Father, the Son or the Spirit or all three...LOL), hypostatic union and the like. All made up as ridiculous kluge-jobs to fill in the large space or large gap in their brains and hearts from their lack of understanding about the nature of Christ and his Father, and then to end up saying its all a mystery folks, nothing to see here!. Who in their right mind would want to be a part of this ludicrous conversation and discussion is beyond me.

 

[David in NJ]

Jehovah’s Word makes it very clear. It is your words that reflect confusion. Moralism often surfaces in trinitarian arguments. A very clear verse is 1 Corinthians 11:3. It says that God is the head of Christ as Christ is the head of man. If God and Christ are coequal do you believe that Christ and man are coequal?

i do not confer to"Moralism" as you are seeking to falsely label me as.

ALL of Scripture i embrace fully.
AMEN to 1 Cor 11:3 = FATHER GOD is the Head of Messiah and Messiah the Head of man and man the head of the woman = AMEN

 

[David in NJ]

i do not confer to"Moralism" as you are seeking to falsely label me as.

ALL of Scripture i embrace fully.
AMEN to 1 Cor 11:3 = FATHER GOD is the Head of Messiah and Messiah the Head of man and man the head of the woman = AMEN

Diabolical SIN and Confusion is saying/believing/preaching this = "the Word was a god."

 

[David in NJ]

1 Cor 11:3 is but one of many clear statements that God is NOT Christ or equal to his Father, period! And yet Trinitarians will even defy this verse and attempt to water it down or add in some weak excuse for what it really means, and sometimes dismiss it entirely. Trinitarians must be in deep mental and even spiritual denial when scripture clearly states Christ is not and never was God and never will be God. How can they deny what the word of God clearly states, to refuse to acknowledge it, is the height of self-pride and wicked thought. They are clinging to a theory of pagan nonsense this Trinity, that is founded on their grand ignorant inventions such as the incarnation (of who: the Father, the Son or the Spirit or all three...LOL), hypostatic union and the like. All made up as ridiculous kluge-jobs to fill in the large space or large gap in their brains and hearts from their lack of understanding about the nature of Christ and his Father, and then to end up saying its all a mystery folks, nothing to see here!. Who in their right mind would want to be a part of this ludicrous conversation and discussion is beyond me.

Diabolical SIN and Confusion is saying/believing/preaching this = "the Word was a god."
ERROR is saying "Messiah is not equal to the Father -period."

TRUTH is Yeshua HaMashiach - can you hear His Voice???

Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

TRUTH is YAHshuah(God came down and humbled Himself) = Philippians ch2

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Keiw]

Absolutely Elohim is plural = use a Real Bible and use Strongs Concordance

It is plural in many things but never to the true living God being more than a single being. The Israelites would have served more than a single being God if he were that, but he isnt so they didnt.

 

[Keiw]

No Savior when Isaiah was written??? - Yo are being lied to my friend.

I said no other savior when Isaiah was written. YHWH was savior then, Jesus became savior when he died a perfect existence and bought back what Adam had lost for mortals.

 

[Keiw]

The Hebrew Elohim means "supreme ones" and it is used of other spiritual beings besides God Almighty. Look it up in Strong's Concordance. Almost all the places where Elohim refers to YHWH the pronouns or verbs are singular.

View attachment 21952

Notice the second word from the left, "bra," "he created." It is talking about Elohim, but it is singular.

We have similar words in English. When I just say, "sheep" you don't know if I mean one sheep or many sheep. The same word is used for both. But if I say, "My sheep is white" you know I'm talking about one sheep, but if I say, "My sheep are white" you know I mean many sheep. The scriptures are just like that with Elohim.

Genesis 1:26 is another "problem" verse to many Christians.

Gen 1:26,

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
​

It is assumed, without scriptural corroboration, that the "us" refers to God and Jesus. But does it? God was certainly not alone when He uttered these words, but he wasn't talking about Him and Jesus doing a joint creation job. Look at the next verse:

Gen 1:27,

So God - created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.​

Created is singular. YHWY alone created everything in Genesis 1. Read on my friend:

We need to understand that there are many Elohim besides YHWH. God was discussing His plan with these other Elhoim.

Ps 82:1-8,

1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
​

gods: Hebrew Elohim. Same word most people think of as reserved for YHWH alone, but it's not the case. There are many Elohim, but only one YHWH. That's why His name (YHWH) is so important

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
​

ye judge is plural. YHWH was talking to many Elohim. These are spirit beings, created by YHWH, that were sent to help mankind, but they didn't do a very good job, so YHWH was reproving them. Notice verse 7 says they will die LIKE men. If they were men, YHWH would have just said they will die. They, like humans have free will. Satan was created perfect (Ezek 28:15) by YHWH, but he chose to attempt to be equal with God. He and 1/3 of the other angels were cast down to the earth in punishment. They are the devil spirits we deal with every day.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.​

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.​

Job 38:6-7,

6 - On what were its foundations set, or who laid - its cornerstone,

7 while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

Since there were no humans yet when God laid the foundations of the world, these sons of God were spirit beings. They do exist and that is who God was talking to in Genesis 1:26. Google, "divine council of god" for more info.

I know this isn't taught in the pulpits on Sunday mornings, but there it is in the scriptures. It's been there for several thousand years, so it ought to carry some weight!

The us = YHWH and his master worker( Jesus) --Yes God alone has the power to create, he does it through his master worker. Same as the parting of the red sea-YHWH(Jehovah) did it, but he did it through Moses. Moses a mortal could not ever part a sea without God doing it through him. Jesus teaches the same--He can do 0 of his own initiative.(John 5:30) It is YHWH(Jehovah) doing it all through him- Acts 2:22-1Cor 8:5-6

 

[David in NJ]

I said no other savior when Isaiah was written. YHWH was savior then, Jesus became savior when he died a perfect existence and bought back what Adam had lost for mortals.

You are in a Great Dilemna.
According to you, there are TWO DIFFERENT Saviors.
That is not what the Scripture declares.

Echad ELOHIM = the TRUTH from Genesis

Who foretold this long ago?
Who announced it from ancient times?
Was it not I, the YHWH?
There is no other God but Me,
a righteous God and Savior;
there is none but Me.

Not one scripture declares "Jesus the master worker...."

 

[DavidB]

i do not confer to"Moralism" as you are seeking to falsely label me as.

ALL of Scripture i embrace fully.
AMEN to 1 Cor 11:3 = FATHER GOD is the Head of Messiah and Messiah the Head of man and man the head of the woman = AMEN

When you say that Jesus is the Father you are promoting modalist. The trinity says that Jesus is the Son and is separate from the Father. So if you want to stay away from modalism stop using scriptures like if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Actually I think you know that there but it doesn’t fit your errant argument. So God is the head of Christ as Christ is the head of man yet you claim they are equal? Incredible. How can God be head of himself. Ridiculous.

 

[APAK]

Diabolical SIN and Confusion is saying/believing/preaching this = "the Word was a god."
ERROR is saying "Messiah is not equal to the Father -period."

TRUTH is Yeshua HaMashiach - can you hear His Voice???

Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

TRUTH is YAHshuah(God came down and humbled Himself) = Philippians ch2

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I think you have miscued once again David. Were you responding to me or someone else?
While you are writing to me then I might as well say that the Greek transliterated word 'logos' is not a creature or of God's creation. It is a thing or an 'it' and never a person, let alone Christ. It is God's core intrinsic attribute, his expression, voice and how he communicates with his creation. He made everything with 'it' with his power of his Spirit. It is a part of God and CANNOT be separated or pulled apart from himself. Although he did use it within a person we call Jesus/Yahshua. God's voice or expression(s) of his purpose became the expression of a man. God was in him and we saw his glory....as John said in John 1:14.

No, logos (Word) is not a god, it is though DIVINE or pure as is his Spirit, both are the original sources of expression and action and power in this world used by him, God, the Father of all. It is of God the Father only and displayed in Christ as we know from scripture..

 

[David in NJ]

When you say that Jesus is the Father you are promoting modalist. The trinity says that Jesus is the Son and is separate from the Father. So if you want to stay away from modalism stop using scriptures like if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Actually I think you know that there but it doesn’t fit your errant argument. So God is the head of Christ as Christ is the head of man yet you claim they are equal? Incredible. How can God be head of himself. Ridiculous.

Saved by the Blood of Christ and given the Spirit of Truth i hold to the Eternal Commandment: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19

The TRUTH begins in Genesis. If you do not understand Genesis, you will not understand Christ's words or what follows to Revelation.

The TRUTH of Elohim begins in Genesis, it is Eternal and Complete in this: "every knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus is LORD/YHWH."

Just as Elohim spoke to Moses/Torah, the Prophets (Isaiah, etc), thru the only begotten of the FATHER, thru the Apostles and
thru the Revelation of LORD Jesus Christ.

You must have 3 to SEE, just as Jesus prayed to His Father.

 

[David in NJ]

I think you have miscued once again David. Were you responding to me or someone else?
While you are writing to me then I might as well say that the Greek transliterated word 'logos' is not a creature or of God's creation. It is a thing or an 'it' and never a person, let alone Christ. It is God's core intrinsic attribute, his expression, voice and how he communicates with his creation. He made everything with 'it' with his power of his Spirit. It is a part of God and can be separated or pulled apart from him. Although he did use it within a person we call Jesus/Yahshua. God's voice or expression(s) of his purpose became the expression of a man. God was in him and we saw his glory....as John said in John 1:14.

No, logos (Word) is not a god, it is though DIVINE or pure as is his Spirit, both are the original sources of expression and action and power in this world used by him, God, the Father of all. It is of God the Father only and displayed in Christ as we know from scripture..

WOW - now i understand where you are from............"the power of it"

 

[Rich R]

The us = YHWH and his master worker( Jesus)

Heb 2:16-17,

16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
​

Where any of us around when God created the world? No. So if Jesus somehow lived before he was born he is quite a bit different than the rest of us and Hebrews 2:17 is a lie. It can all be cleared up by ascertaining exactly who God was talking to in Genesis 1. I think I gave a good answer based on the scriptures apart from tradition, namely, God was speaking to the various spiritual beings He created before Genesis 1:1. They are angels, archangels, seraphim, etc.

Jesus preexisting plays right into the hands of the Greek philosophers who believed we all existed before actually being born. They, not God, came up with the "eternally existing soul" idea.

Anyway, good discussion. Thanks!