A Day Begins At Sunrise

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zeke25

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liafailrock said:
I'm not getting emotional at all. Sounds more like you are a tad. However, one has to understand time to keep calendars, calculations and the telling of time. But I'll just end here that you are saying that for the record, (since you tacked on the extra 12 hours for the 9th day in the evening) that it's called "the Day and a Half of Atonement." :D
If sundown day starters want their day to start at sundown, then they have to obey the rules of when a day begins and when it ends. I haven't found one yet that has a clue. The fact that you cannot grasp it, when you should considering your other interests, simply means you do not understand the rules for a day start either. Nothing has been tacked onto anything.

I've also not found yet, a sundown day starter that will even attempt to answer the question of when a day ends? It doesn't even compute in their minds. Oh, they know when it begins (so they think), but not a single one knows when it ends. I've even been asked why can't they have 2 sunsets in one day? You have to start with teaching them the ABC's in order to deal with that stupid question.

"If the tenth of the month began at sunset there would have been no need to give these additional instructions (in Le 23:32); and there would have definitely been no need to mention the ninth of the month, because the ninth would have been irrelevant." But your inability to understand this is not my problem, it is yours. I've given the truth to those who want it.

If you were really interested in knowing the truth you would read the entire post #1. It is incontrovertible.

zeke25
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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zeke25 said:
Deuteronomy 16:6 KJV, “But at the place which [Yahowah] thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

This verse does not instruct that the Passover sacrifice must be done after sunset. In fact, it is very specific to instruct that the sacrifice must occur prior to sunset. “acrifice the passover at even” means that one is sacrificing the passover during the even. Even in the Bible can mean noontime, sunset, any time between the two evens, or the entire time between the two evens. But we are given a second time marker in this verse so that we can know exactly which meaning needs to be applied. This second time marker is “at the going down of the sun”. When is the going down of the sun? As shown in the teaching “Between the Evenings” the sun begins to go down starting at noon time. At noon it stops rising and begins to descend. It descends for the rest of the evening (our modern day afternoon) until it disappears below the western horizon. So this verse very specifically tells us that the sacrifice is taking place in the evening (our modern day afternoon) while the sun is going down (and the sun is only going down between noon and sunset).



. . . which is perfectly reconcilable with what I understand 'behn-ha-arba-yim' means. In fact when 'arba' is being understood for between the third and the first of the four quarters of the whole 24 hours days, your interpretation is exact!


Nevertheless, ‘behn-ha-arba-yim’ obviously each time of its occurrence presupposes the twelve hours of day-time and its “four (quarters)” ---not the whole ‘day’ of ‘night-and-day’.
 

Bibliocentrist

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As far as Genesis 1 goes the view that 24 hr day starts at sunrise seems right.
The darkness was before the light, but in the day begins at evening scenario, the first day would have an immense/eternal length night.
So instead of there was evening 6pm(-6am) and there was morning 6am(-6pm), it seems to be there came to be evening (6am-)6pm and there came to be morning (6pm)-6am, which latter is similar to modern western am (midnight to midday) first and pm (midday to midnight) after.
"All the morning stars" might also agree (morning stars ~ at dawn/start of world history/time?)
World ages & culture phases also goe Golden age to Dark/Iron age (Indian/Greek), spring to winter (Spenglar).
Genesis 8:22 also says in the order "day and night" (in English version). [Incidentally the "summer and winter" in that verse may suggest axis tilted during flood?] And the flood was "40 days and 40 nights". [Incidentally that makes 80, and is abit like "around the world in 80 days"?]
Yom(e) "day" is related to Phoenician Jom "sun" [and maybe Greek Aeon?]
But I have still yet to find your or my answers to some other confusing verses though (like why the "passover" meal was evening before crucifiction day).
(Not that i care about faith anymore though since i am still/more suffering mean/cruel Hell.)
 

zeke25

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Bibliocentrist said:
As far as Genesis 1 goes the view that 24 hr day starts at sunrise seems right.
The darkness was before the light, but in the day begins at evening scenario, the first day would have an immense/eternal length night.
So instead of there was evening 6pm(-6am) and there was morning 6am(-6pm), it seems to be there came to be evening (6am-)6pm and there came to be morning (6pm)-6am, which latter is similar to modern western am (midnight to midday) first and pm (midday to midnight) after.
"All the morning stars" might also agree (morning stars ~ at dawn/start of world history/time?)
World ages & culture phases also goe Golden age to Dark/Iron age (Indian/Greek), spring to winter (Spenglar).
Genesis 8:22 also says in the order "day and night" (in English version). [Incidentally the "summer and winter" in that verse may suggest axis tilted during flood?] And the flood was "40 days and 40 nights". [Incidentally that makes 80, and is abit like "around the world in 80 days"?]
Yom(e) "day" is related to Phoenician Jom "sun" [and maybe Greek Aeon?]
But I have still yet to find your or my answers to some other confusing verses though (like why the "passover" meal was evening before crucifiction day).
(Not that i care about faith anymore though since i am still/more suffering mean/cruel Hell.)
Bibliocentrist,

Mt. 12:40 sets the stage for crucifixion week. When Christ tells us 3D/3N it must occur in that order. The first day of His death must be in the day time. Count ahead 3D/3N and you can see that He must rise from the dead during the third night. He cannot rise from the dead after the 3rd night, because then He would be dead during the 4th day (even 1 minute or 1 second would count as day 4).

The Bible shows us that by Sunday, He was already risen, therefore He must have risen sometime Saturday night. Simple logic and simple arithmetic, unless one doesn't understand that a day start is sunrise.

From here we count backwards. Saturday night (the 3rd night) was the last night He was in the belly of the earth, but also the first night He was alive again and walking among us. Saturday was the 3rd day He was dead.

Friday night was the 2nd night He was dead. Also, since the Passover Feast is always on Friday night, He could not participate, He wasn't there. Friday day is the 2nd day He was dead. Since the Passover sacrifice always occurs on Friday during the day light hours, He didn't participate.

Thursday night was the 1st night He was dead. So, He couldn't have been arrested on Thursday night, because He was already dead. Thursday day was the last day He was alive and the first day He was dead. Therefore, He must have been sacrificed on Thursday day. This is one day prior to Passover.

If He was sacrificed on Thursday day, He must have been arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane on Wednesday night.

He had a meal with His disciples prior to His arrest. Therefore He had to have this meal on Wednesday. This was the Last Supper. Passover is still 2 days in the future.

Most everyone finds all kinds of Scriptures they think proves this scenario to be wrong. if they would listen to the explanations as to why their interpretation of those Scriptures are faulty, then they could learn. I'm on a multi-year search for a person who wants to learn.

zeke25
 

Bibliocentrist

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Zeke/Rick that seems good though i have to check with everything (calendar dates, etc). Note i was never a holder of die fri, tomb sat, ris sun myself. Biblical Sat night = Modern Sat night & Sun morning.
I think Jesus would have been resurrected hour/s before sunrise, since otherwise he would have to have slept night, though it may have taken hour/s to be able to get over sideffects (though Lazarus walked quickly). I guess that would not be a "break" of sabbath since Jesus healed on some sabbaths (and other examples he mentioned)?

However one major difficulty :
according to the synoptic gospels the "passover" meal was the day/eve before he was crucified.
according to judaeo-christian jesus is the passover lamb who should be sacrificed on same day (and can't have meal before sacrifice)
according to your info the passover is always on a friday [fri 13th of Velikovsky?] and you reckon it was day after his crucifiction.
So we have 3 different psasover days/dates before/during/after the cricifiction.
 

zeke25

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Bibliocentrist said:
Zeke/Rick that seems good though i have to check with everything (calendar dates, etc). Note i was never a holder of die fri, tomb sat, ris sun myself. Biblical Sat night = Modern Sat night & Sun morning.
I think Jesus would have been resurrected hour/s before sunrise, since otherwise he would have to have slept night, though it may have taken hour/s to be able to get over sideffects (though Lazarus walked quickly). I guess that would not be a "break" of sabbath since Jesus healed on some sabbaths (and other examples he mentioned)?

However one major difficulty :
according to the synoptic gospels the "passover" meal was the day/eve before he was crucified.
according to judaeo-christian jesus is the passover lamb who should be sacrificed on same day (and can't have meal before sacrifice)
according to your info the passover is always on a friday [fri 13th of Velikovsky?] and you reckon it was day after his crucifiction.
So we have 3 different psasover days/dates before/during/after the cricifiction.
BiblioC,

I will answer your last four questions. But I might not be able to finish until tomorrow, I'll see how my time goes.

zeke25
 

zeke25

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Bibliocentrist said:
Zeke/Rick that seems good though i have to check with everything (calendar dates, etc). Note i was never a holder of die fri, tomb sat, ris sun myself. Biblical Sat night = Modern Sat night & Sun morning.
I think Jesus would have been resurrected hour/s before sunrise, since otherwise he would have to have slept night, though it may have taken hour/s to be able to get over sideffects (though Lazarus walked quickly). I guess that would not be a "break" of sabbath since Jesus healed on some sabbaths (and other examples he mentioned)?

However one major difficulty :
according to the synoptic gospels the "passover" meal was the day/eve before he was crucified.
according to judaeo-christian jesus is the passover lamb who should be sacrificed on same day (and can't have meal before sacrifice)
according to your info the passover is always on a friday [fri 13th of Velikovsky?] and you reckon it was day after his crucifiction.
So we have 3 different psasover days/dates before/during/after the cricifiction.
BiblioC,

You said: "However one major difficulty :
according to the synoptic gospels the "passover" meal was the day/eve before he was crucified."

Zeke25 reply: Actually, this is a common misinterpretation of the gospel accounts. The key phrase is "when they killed the passover". When this phrase is used in the gospels of Matthew and Luke it does not mean that the passover is going to be killed that very day. This phrase is used to describe which feast is being referred to. You see, there are two feasts known as unleavened feasts: Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Sometimes only the word feast is used and one must determine from the context which of the two feasts are being spoken about. The phrase "when they killed the passover" tells us that Passover is being discussed. I realize most everyone wants to interpret this phrase to mean that the Passover will occur that very day. This is not the case.

Here is an excerpt from a teaching I wrote regarding the harmony of the four gospels regarding this very issue. You can't read it like a book. It must be studied.

THE DAY OF PASSOVER

11.a. In section I (paragraph 1a) above, we made the claim that we could identify the correct chronological placement of four important days in crucifixion week. Thus far we have covered the day in which the Last Supper was eaten, crucifixion day, and resurrection day. We will now look at the four gospels and the biblical teaching on two key parallel passages that explain the placement of the day of Passover within the week.

11.b. In a previous section labeled as THE DAY OF THE CRUCIFIXION IS PREPARATION DAY FOR PASSOVER, NOT THE DAY OF PASSOVER, a few passages were used that showed that the crucifixion occurred on Thursday the last day of preparation, and Passover was on Friday. I have listed those Scriptures here again from above for our convenience.

Mark 15:42-43 KJV, "42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of [Yahoshua]."

Luke 23:53-54 KJV, "53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

John 19:14 KJV, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"

John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the [stakes] on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

11.c. In the first of these two following passages of Scriptures we will explore Yahoshua's declaration that after two days is the Passover and His declaration that He will be crucified. In the second of these two passages that follow we will explore the instructions given to the disciples to find a place to prepare for the Passover. It just so happens that both of these sets of passages occur on the same day, Wednesday Abib 12. And it is not until we read the gospel of John that it all comes together in an understandable manner. However, do not take any short cuts. Please read the first three gospel accounts first, then read John.

12. Matthew 26:2 KJV, "Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified." Here is the meaning of "after two days". The first day is the day that is currently at hand and since we know that Passover is always Friday Abib 14 (see our teaching Calendar of Scripture), the current day is Wednesday Abib 12. The second day is Thursday Abib 13. After two days is therefore Friday Abib 14, which is Passover. Parallel passages are Mark 14:1-2, Luke 22:1, and John 13:1.

This story that was begun in Matthew 26:1-2 has a chronological break, but the story continues again starting in verse 17. From that point on it becomes obvious that this is the day of the Last Supper. The chronological break tells a story that occurred four days earlier on Saturday Abib 8 at Simon the Leper's house when Yahoshua was anointed with spikenard.

13. Mark 14:1-2 KJV, "1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. 2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people." Mark chooses to mention not only the upcoming Passover which is written as “the feast of the passover”, but also the Feast of Unleavened Bread that comes the day after Passover which is written as “unleavened bread”. This passage shows that the chief priests and scribes did not want Yahoshua the Christ to be put to death on the day of Passover which is referred to in verse two as “the feast day”.

The same chronological break that was in Matthew is also here in Mark 14. This chronological break tells a story that occurred four days earlier on Saturday Abib 8 at Simon the Leper's house when Yahoshua was anointed with spikenard. John 12:1 KJV, “Then [Yahoshua] six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.” Six days prior to Passover on the 14th was Abib 8.

14. Luke 22:1 KJV, "Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover." Luke does not mention the Feast of Unleavened Bread, just as Matthew did not. Luke concentrates on the single day of Passover.

The chronological break in Luke is not the same story that was told in Matthew and Mark that occurred at Simon the Leper's house. Instead, a story is told of Judas Iscariot with Satan entering him. This event did not occur until after the Last Supper had begun.

15. John 13:1 KJV, "Now before the feast of the passover, when [Yahoshua] knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end." John begins his telling of the story with the emphasis on Yahoshua departing out of this world. He does mention that the Passover is in the future. But there are no out of order chronological breaks in John as there were in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

16.a. The story that began in Matthew 26:2 shows that Yahoshua and His disciples separated for a time on that day, but then the disciples returned on that same day with a question. Matthew 26:17 KJV, "Now the first (Strong's G4413 protos πρωτη) day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" The italicized words are not in the Textus Receptus and have been provided by the translators to clarify the meaning of this passage. These words are day and feast of. The word bread is not in the Textus Receptus either and should have been italicized. The danger of inserting words into the text that are not in the original document - in this case the Textus Receptus - is that this is when the translators have the greatest tendency to interpret the text rather than providing a pure translation. For a translator to become an interpreter is the greatest scholarly offense that can possibly be committed: A translator blundering into interpreting destroys his credibility as an unbiased translator. This is exactly what the King James translators have done. They have interpreted this verse and given us a totally corrupt translation. Parallel passages are Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7, and John 13:1-2.

16.b. Without the four manufactured and unnecessary words the meaning of the passage is not only quite different, but the meaning has completely reversed. Please remember that which we mentioned in section I (paragraph 3a), the Bible teaches that there are two separate and different feasts referred to as unleavened: Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Furthermore, we must determine from the context which of the two unleavens is being spoken of. The King James translators have blurred our ability to make a correct determination by adding the words feasts of prior to the word unleavened. And they have completed the corruption of this verse by adding the word bread after the word unleavened. We are being told by these translators, turned interpreters, that Matthew 26:17 is speaking to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is not true. In fact, now the verse contradicts itself because near the end of the verse the word "Passover" is used, which identifies that it is really the day of Passover that is being addressed, not the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

16.c. Here is what the verse says without the added words: "Now the first of the unleavened the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" With this correct wording from the Textus Receptus we can discern that the unleavened being addressed in this verse is the day of Passover, and we can see that this verse no longer contradicts itself.

16.d. Let us look at Matthew 26:17 in some other translations. Biblegateway.com, at the time of this writing, had 46 translations available. Twenty-four of these translations have corrupted this verse, twenty-two have not corrupted this verse. I have an additional translation that has not corrupted this verse either, which brings the count up to twenty-three. So, the count is 24 corrupted and 23 uncorrupted. But, of course, our doctrine is not determined by counting noses. I felt it was important to point out that translators turned interpreters of this verse are in a tug of war with the truth at your expense.

16.e. The casual reader of this Scripture needs to understand that preparing the Passover is nothing like mom saying, "Hey, Billie Boy would you like a peanut butter sandwich for lunch." And to suggest that the Passover Feast is that simple is to invite ridicule. How many days does mom take to prepare Thanksgiving dinner? You better believe it is not a single day. She has to plan, shop, prepare, cook, and so on. Imagine if she had to find a house to rent as well, in order to prepare and serve this big momentous celebration. Do you really think the disciples were asking their question and expecting to fulfill all the preparations in one afternoon? If you do, then stop it! Get out of the box*. Do not think like that any more!

*Note. Interestingly, under the unction of the Holy Ghost, I started the box thing over twenty-five years ago, around 1985-6. It was strange to see it starting to make the mainstream circa 2005. It’s in commercials, it’s on the news, it’s in the workplace and marketplace. It was originally employed as a witnessing example. It originally was used to help people be set free to come to know the one true God and His Son that sacrificed His Blood and Life so that man could be reconciled to Him. Now it is used by the secular world to sell tacos.

16.f. In Matthew 26:17, the word first (Strong's G4413 protos πρωτη) in Greek is prota. The translators added the word day after the word first. Just what is the meaning of "Now the first of the unleavened"? This is an extremely important phrase and discerning its meaning removes the confusion about which day of crucifixion week is being spoken of. Passover is only one day (please ask for our teaching Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread). How can there be a first when Passover is an only? As we showed above in Exodus 12:3, there is more than one day involved in the preparation of Passover. In fact, the Greek word protos translated into the English word first means the first day in a series of days, it does not mean a single day. Therefore, “Now the first of the unleavened” means the first day in a series of days leading up to the day of Passover. In other words, this day, that this phrase was written, was absolutely not the day of Passover, it was several days prior to the day of Passover.

16.g. Therefore, it follows that this means that the Passover Feast which the disciples were instructed to prepare was not the very day in which this phrase was written. In other words, the disciples received their instructions to prepare the Passover Feast several days prior or before the actual day of Passover. In no manner, shape, or form was Yahoshua expecting His disciples to accomplish the preparation and produce the Passover in one afternoon. Besides, a lamb would need to be sacrificed at the Temple that afternoon and the roasting begun in order for it to be ready to eat at the feast which would begin after sundown. Deuteronomy 16:5-6 KJV, "5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which [Yahowah] thy God giveth thee: 6 But at the place which [Yahowah] thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt." Do you really think that the priests would accommodate Yahoshua and sacrifice a Passover lamb for them in the Temple two days prior to Passover contrary to the law? They were busy plotting to kill Yahoshua, they certainly were not going to sacrifice a lamb for Him. There is no indication that any lamb was involved at all. And of course there would not be. Because, our Lord and Savior would be the Passover Lamb this year. And He knew this even though no one else did at the time. By tomorrow afternoon, no substitutionary Passover lamb would ever be needed or accepted by God again for the remainder of history.

16.h. Now that it has been shown that Matthew 26:17 does not say that the Passover will be sacrificed and the Passover Feast eaten on the day the disciples received the instructions to prepare the Passover, I will add some additional information. Protos can also be translated as before or preceding. If we were to replace the word first in this Scripture and substitute the word before or preceding then the Scripture would read as, "Now before (or preceding) the unleavened the disciples came to [Yahoshua], saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" This rendering agrees with John 13:1-2. This rendering also makes it clear that the preparing of the Passover was not going to be completed that very day - the day the disciples received their instructions.

16.i. With the proper understanding of Matthew 26:17 now stated, the understanding of Matthew 26:18-19 is possible. Matthew 26:18-19 KJV, "18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep (Strong's G4160 poieo ποιω) the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as [Yahoshua] had appointed them; and they made ready the passover." Once again, this does not mean that the Passover preparations were completed that very day. We know that Passover is two days away, and that a couple of days were available for them to complete the preparations. Also, poieo translated as keep is not the best translation for our century. Since we know that Yahoshua will not actually keep the Passover this year, the better word to have used would be make or prepare; and some translations do use these words instead of keep.

16.j. With the proper understanding of Matthew 26:17-19, we can now continue with Matthew 26:20 KJV, "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve." This is the same day that the disciples began preparations for Passover and now it was night. We know it was night because "even was come" is a time marker that shows us that the sun had set. They all sat down to eat the Last Supper on Wednesday Abib 12. Therefore, the following day was the last preparation day and crucifixion day on Thursday Abib 13, and the next day after that was Passover on Friday Abib 14. Please read the rest of chapter 26 to satisfy yourself that this was indeed the Last Supper. If this was the day of Passover, then a lamb would have been required to be sacrificed sometime between noon and sundown and the roasting of this lamb would have had to begun. You cannot have a Passover Feast without first having a Passover sacrifice. There is no evidence that a Passover lamb was sacrificed and prepared that afternoon; however, there is evidence that there would be sacrifices two days later.

John 18:28 KJV "Then led they [Yahoshua] from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover." If Yahoshua had eaten the Passover Feast the night before, then there would be no Passover Feast for the Pharisees to eat in the future. Everyone, by law, eats the Passover at the same time. There is no allowance for some to eat it one night and some Jews to eat it the next day. The Last Supper was not the Passover Feast, therefore, the eating of it was still in the future.

John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the [stakes] on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

16.k. Besides, the focus of Passover is not the feast. The focus of Passover is the sacrifice. How can the story resume with them sitting down to a feast and the whole ceremony of the sacrifice is not even addressed at all? It was not addressed, because it was not due until Friday Abib 14 and it was still Wednesday Abib 12.

17.a. The story that began in Mark 14:1-2 shows that Yahoshua and His disciples separated for a time on that day, but then the disciples returned on that same day with a question. Mark 14:12 KJV, "And the first (Strong's G4413 prota πρωτη) day (Strong's G2250 hemera ημερα) of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" We will start with the word first. First (Strong's G4413 protos) in Greek is prota. How can there be a first when the Bible teaches that Passover is a single day? Obviously, there is more than one day involved in the preparation of Passover. In fact, this Greek word for first means the first day in a series of days, it does not mean a single day. Therefore, first means the first day in a series of days leading up to the day of Passover. In other words, this day, that this phrase was written, was not the day of Passover, it was several days prior to the day of Passover, actually two days in this case. Also, protos could have been translated as before or preceding, rather than first. Parallel passages are Matthew 26:17, Luke 22:7, and John 13:1-2.

17.b. With this expanded understanding of what protos can mean, we can see that the single day of Passover must have had several preparation days prior to the actual day of Passover. Since Mark 14:12 took place on Wednesday (according to our current day understanding of the days of a week) Abib 12, we can see there were at least two preparation days prior to Passover which according to Exodus 12:6,14 occurs on Friday Abib 14. (I am using the Calendar of Scripture, not the Gregorian Calendar nor the current day Rabbinic Calendar). Please refer to our teaching called the Calendar of Scripture.

17.c. The idea of multiple preparations days prior to Passover comes from Exodus 12:3 KJV, "Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house[.]" As you can see, the first Passover had at least four days of preparation, from Monday Abib 10 through Thursday Abib 13. So, as long as one understands this meaning for protos, then there is no confusion: "the first day of unleavened bread" does not mean that this very day is Passover, it means that Passover is several days in the future (in this case it meant two days in the future).

17.d. Next, we will address the word day. Day (Strong's G2250 hemera) in Greek is hemera. Yes, hemera can mean a day, but not necessarily and all the time in the sense of a twenty-four hour day. Hemera can mean a time period, in which someone begins a preparation or a settling down from a normal routine or ceasing or resting from a normal routine. Hemera can mean several days or even a larger time period. For example, it can be used in saying things such as "in his day", or "the day of the New Testament", or "in the time of the New Testament", or "in the day of Passover", or "in the time of Passover".

17.e. With this understanding of the words of protos and hemera we can understand that Mark 14:12 could have been translated with different English words to bring more clarity to those of us living in our current day. For example, "And before (or preceding) the time of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him…". This rendering also makes it very easily understood that the day of Passover is in the future, not today, just as John 13:1-2 plainly expresses to us in our language in this century.

17.f. Next, let us look at the words unleavened (Strong's G106 azymos) bread. The word bread was not in the Textus Receptus and should have been italicized. Translators will insert extra words into a text in an attempt to bring clarity to the translation. Even though unleavened bread was meant by Mark in 14:12, it did not bring more clarity to this Scripture to add the word bread.

17.g. As mentioned in section I (paragraph 3a) and in our discussion above on Matthew 26:17 we can see that the Bible teaches that there are two separate and different feasts referred to as unleavened: Passover and the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Furthermore, we must determine from the context which of the two unleavens is being spoken of. First, the Passover Feast was commonly called an unleavened feast because no leavened bread could lawfully be eaten at that meal. Second, the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread which begins the day after Passover on Saturday Abib 15, was also called unleavened bread; naturally, since that was part of the full name of this second feast that immediately followed the first feast. Nevertheless, whether we use unleavened or unleavened bread let us continue.

17.h. We know, from the context, that Mark 14:12 is speaking about the unleavened of Passover: The phrase "when they killed the passover". This is not a subtle clue at all, this hits the nail solidly on the head. Mark left no wiggle room for our understanding. He must have been speaking of the unleavened of the single day of Passover because he identified the unleavened as the day in which the Passover lamb was to be killed. Passover lambs are not sacrificed during the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Lambs might be, but they are not called Passover lambs.

17.i. With the proper understanding of Mark 14:12 now stated. The understanding of Mark 14:13-16 is possible. Mark 14:13-16 KJV, "13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. 14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall (Strong's G5315 phago) eat the passover with my disciples? 15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. 16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover." Once again, this does not mean that the Passover was prepared that very day. Since we know that Passover is two days away, then we know that a couple of days were available for them to prepare the Passover. Also, phago translated as shall is not the best translation. We already know that Yahoshua shall not eat the Passover this year. The better word to have used would be may; and some translations have done just that.

17.j. With the proper understanding of Mark 14:12-16, we can now continue with Mark 14:17 KJV, "And in the evening he cometh with the twelve." This is the same day that the disciples began preparations for Passover when they all sat down to eat the Last Supper (Wednesday Abib 12). Therefore, the following day was the last preparation day and crucifixion day (Thursday Abib 13), and the next day was Passover (Friday Abib 14). Please read the rest of chapter 14 to satisfy yourself that this was indeed the Last Supper. If this was the day of Passover, then a lamb would have been required to be sacrificed sometime between noon and sundown and the roasting of this lamb would have had to begun. You cannot have a Passover Feast without first having a Passover sacrifice. There is no evidence that a Passover lamb was prepared that afternoon; however, there is evidence that there would be sacrifices two days later as shown above in John 18:28 and 19:31.

17.k. Besides, the focus of Passover is not the feast. The focus of Passover is the sacrifice. How can the story resume with the twelve coming to a meal and the whole ceremony of the sacrifice is not even addressed at all? It was not addressed, because it was not due until Friday Abib 14 and it was still Wednesday Abib 12.

18.a. Luke 22:7-9 KJV, "7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. (Parallel passages are Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, and John 13:1-2). 8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. 9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?" This story begins at Luke 22:1, but unlike Matthew and Mark it does not identify that Passover is two days hence. In Luke 22:2-6, it does tell us that which Matthew and Mark did, that the chief priests were plotting to take Yahoshua's life. The information given to us about Satan entering Judas is out of chronological order: Please refer to John 13:27. No mention is made by Luke regarding the story of the spikenard and the woman who anointed Yahoshua.

18.b. Once again the word bread is not in the Textus Receptus and should have been italicized. In context, it is quite obvious in these Scriptures that each time unleavened is written, unleavened bread is being written about. Nevertheless, bread should at least be italicized by the translators. Once again, the use of hemera/day/time is all acceptable as long as one understands that hemera means a period of time that is normally more than one day long. "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed" is an identifying phrase. As explained above, the word day is speaking of a time period of several days. So, when it says, "Then came the day" the verse is not talking about this very day, it is talking about the general time period that is several days long. Another way it could be expressed, for those of us who are used to 21st century American English, is to say: "Then came the time of unleavened bread in which Passover occurs."

18.c. Luke 22:11-16 KJV, "11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall (Strong's G5315 phago) eat the passover with my disciples? 12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. 13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." There is a scene change starting with verse 14. "And when the hour was come" means that it was supper time. It does not mean that it was time to eat the Passover Feast. Who had time to prepare and perform a sacrificial lamb and all the other preparations for a Passover Feast? No one. Verses 15 and 16 show that they were not sitting down to eat the Passover Feast because Yahoshua began talking about the upcoming (in two days) Passover and said, even though He wanted to eat it with His disciples, it will not happen.

18.d. Another helpful thought to keep in mind is the high significance of the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the mind of the Hebrews. Try stepping into the Hebrew mindset and traditions for a moment. These two feasts were of utmost importance and constantly on their minds. Anything they said or did the week prior to these feasts was totally focused on these upcoming sabbaths. Masses of people descending on Jerusalem had to find lodging and a place to eat the Passover - this was a huge preparation. They could not defile themselves, else they would have to wait another month before they could participate. Do you not think of Christmas, days and even weeks before it arrives? Are you not constantly thinking of gifts, decorations, cards, clothes, and all manner of things that are directly connected to this festive time, and doing so even weeks in advance. The merchants will not leave us alone - "only 24 more shopping days before Christmas". Nowadays, I see signs of Christmas fever even before the Thanksgiving decor is removed. I use Christmas time as an example, not to affirm its pagan practise.

19.a. John 13:1-4 KJV, "1 Now before the feast of the passover, when [Yahoshua] knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 3 [Yahoshua] knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself." As you can see, John changes the way the story is told. He makes it easier to understand compared to the parallel passages at Matthew 26:2,17, Mark 14:1-2,12, and Luke 22:1,7. We can see that the Last Supper was occurring prior to the day of Passover. The Last Supper occurred on the evening of the fourth day of the week. His arrest occurred after midnight on the fourth day of the week, and the following sunrise (which would begin the fifth day of the week), Yahoshua was well under way to being tested, tried, and convicted. And on the fifth day of the week, one day prior to the day of Passover (which would begin the next day at sunrise) He was crucified and killed. And on the sixth day of the week was Passover on Friday Abib 14.

19.b. John 19:14 KJV, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" Once again, yet another Scripture that identifies that the Last Supper was yesterday, today was crucifixion day and preparation day, one day prior to the Passover, and tomorrow would be Passover.

20. We have now answered those questions which we stated as our goal in paragraph 1a above. Wednesday was the Last Supper, Thursday He was crucified, Friday was Passover, and Saturday was Resurrection Day. Yet, there is more to be said about crucifixion week. Please read on.
 

zeke25

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zeke25 said:
BiblioC,

I will answer your last four questions. But I might not be able to finish until tomorrow, I'll see how my time goes.

zeke25
Bibliocentrist said:
Zeke/Rick that seems good though i have to check with everything (calendar dates, etc). Note i was never a holder of die fri, tomb sat, ris sun myself. Biblical Sat night = Modern Sat night & Sun morning.
I think Jesus would have been resurrected hour/s before sunrise, since otherwise he would have to have slept night, though it may have taken hour/s to be able to get over sideffects (though Lazarus walked quickly). I guess that would not be a "break" of sabbath since Jesus healed on some sabbaths (and other examples he mentioned)?

However one major difficulty :
according to the synoptic gospels the "passover" meal was the day/eve before he was crucified.
according to judaeo-christian jesus is the passover lamb who should be sacrificed on same day (and can't have meal before sacrifice)
according to your info the passover is always on a friday [fri 13th of Velikovsky?] and you reckon it was day after his crucifiction.
So we have 3 different psasover days/dates before/during/after the cricifiction.
BiblioC,

Your second concern was - according to judaeo-christian jesus is the passover lamb who should be sacrificed on same day (and can't have meal before sacrifice).

There is no Biblical support for this position. I have searched for it. If you have a Scripture that requires this, I need to know. In other words, it is not necessary for Christ to have been sacrificed on the same day that for centuries the Passover lamb and sacrifice was performed. And this idea of not having a meal, where does that come from? How far in advance must food be withheld?





Your third comment line: according to your info the passover is always on a friday [fri 13th of Velikovsky?] and you reckon it was day after his crucifiction.

If Velikovsky wrote of this, it is immaterial to me. What matters to me is that the very first Passover was on Friday Abib 14 and so was every subsequent Passover after that until the time of Christ. And when I say Passover, I mean both the sacrifice that occurs during the afternoon and feast which occurs after sundown - both are on Abib 14. I have Scriptures for this if you would like to see them.




Your 4th comment line: So we have 3 different psasover days/dates before/during/after the cricifiction.

I'm not sure who the "we" is in this line. There is only one Passover date every year; i.e., Abib 14 on the Calendar of Scripture, not on the Gregorian calendar, nor on the current Rabbinic Judaism calendar, nor do I know of any other calendar that would have it correct also. If there is one out there in the world somewhere I hope I come across it. Since Christ was killed on Thursday Abib 13, then the crucifixion was prior to Passover (Friday Abib 14) that year. That would mean that the previous year's Passover was the last legitimate Passover ever. After Christ was killed, all subsequent Passovers became blasphemous acts.

zeke25
 

Bibliocentrist

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Thanks. It seems alright/good after checking it all though still a couple/few minor possible uncertainties. Seems the problem was alot due to poor/inadequite English translation of more complex (Greek) language words/cases, and having to have/do so much long (writing and) reading ("10000 words").

10th choose passover lamb, prota/protos?
11th prota/protos?
12th last supper, prota/protos.
13th thu(-fri), preparation passover/"sabbath"/highday, crucifiction, [midweek?], 1st day & 1st night.
14th, always fri(-sat), passover, 1st "sabbath", 1st of highday, 1st feast, unleavened bread, 2nd day & 2nd night.
15th, (2nd) sabbath/sat(-sun), 1st of unleavened bread, 2nd feast, 3rd day & 3rd night, rose bef mod sun dawn.
16th, sun(-mon), first day of week, first fruits
21st, seventh/last of unleavened bread.

The idea i once wondered about that the cut off in the middle of the week (and 3&1/2 days) seems probably wrong. But it is possible the cut off in middle of week could fit with your biblical-worked-out scenario since 13th is middle of 10th-16th. I had previously thought middle of week would be Wednesday but that doesn't seem possible from the evidence. (I know the 70 weeks and middle of the week has other interpretations.)
[Incidentally i will just also mention i was wondering if the 40 days (after the 3 days and 3 nights) of Jonah could be analogous with crucifiction to destruction of Jerusalem in ad70. But the eclipse seems to have been 32/33 ad so maybe not quite fit. (Jesus may have been about 39/40 ("his generation") when died/rose, if born in 7 bc and crucifiction in 32/33ad.)]
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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zeke25 said:
Deuteronomy 16:6 KJV, “But at the place which [Yahowah] thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

This verse does not instruct that the Passover sacrifice must be done after sunset. In fact, it is very specific to instruct that the sacrifice must occur prior to sunset. “acrifice the passover at even” means that one is sacrificing the passover during the even. Even in the Bible can mean noontime, sunset, any time between the two evens, or the entire time between the two evens. But we are given a second time marker in this verse so that we can know exactly which meaning needs to be applied. This second time marker is “at the going down of the sun”. When is the going down of the sun? As shown in the teaching “Between the Evenings” the sun begins to go down starting at noon time. At noon it stops rising and begins to descend. It descends for the rest of the evening (our modern day afternoon) until it disappears below the western horizon. So this verse very specifically tells us that the sacrifice is taking place in the evening (our modern day afternoon) while the sun is going down (and the sun is only going down between noon and sunset).



Practice what you preach!
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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zeke25 said:
the very first Passover was on Friday Abib 14 and so was every subsequent Passover after that until the time of Christ. And when I say Passover, I mean both the sacrifice that occurs during the afternoon and feast which occurs after sundown - both are on Abib 14. I have Scriptures for this if you would like to see them.


zeke25
In Exodus at the exodus -passover ONLY the date of the 14th applies to the three of the "three days thick darkness" during Egypt's last two plagues. The 14th, 15th and 16th are all three dated "the 14th day of the First Month". The most significant appellation given to these three days collectively and INDISTINGUISHABLE, was, "THE SELFSAME-WHOLE-DAY-BONE-DAY".

But ever after, <<the sacrifice occurs during the afternoon ... on Abib 14>>; and the eating of the sacrifice or <<feast occurs after sundown>>, "on the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month".

BOTH the 14th and the 15th ---in fact also the 10th and the 16th days of the First Month by date ARE CALLED in the Scriptures, "THE SELFSAME-WHOLE-DAY-BONE-DAY" !
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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zeke25 said:
BiblioC,

Your second concern was - according to judaeo-christian jesus is the passover lamb who should be sacrificed on same day (and can't have meal before sacrifice).

There is no Biblical support for this position. I have searched for it. If you have a Scripture that requires this, I need to know. In other words, it is not necessary for Christ to have been sacrificed on the same day that for centuries the Passover lamb and sacrifice was performed. And this idea of not having a meal, where does that come from? How far in advance must food be withheld?





Your third comment line: according to your info the passover is always on a friday [fri 13th of Velikovsky?] and you reckon it was day after his crucifiction.

If Velikovsky wrote of this, it is immaterial to me. What matters to me is that the very first Passover was on Friday Abib 14 and so was every subsequent Passover after that until the time of Christ. And when I say Passover, I mean both the sacrifice that occurs during the afternoon and feast which occurs after sundown - both are on Abib 14. I have Scriptures for this if you would like to see them.




Your 4th comment line: So we have 3 different psasover days/dates before/during/after the cricifiction.

I'm not sure who the "we" is in this line. There is only one Passover date every year; i.e., Abib 14 on the Calendar of Scripture, not on the Gregorian calendar, nor on the current Rabbinic Judaism calendar, nor do I know of any other calendar that would have it correct also. If there is one out there in the world somewhere I hope I come across it. Since Christ was killed on Thursday Abib 13, then the crucifixion was prior to Passover (Friday Abib 14) that year. That would mean that the previous year's Passover was the last legitimate Passover ever. After Christ was killed, all subsequent Passovers became blasphemous acts.

zeke25
If your jesus was sacrificed on the 13th he cannot be the Lamb of God who was "KILLED ON THE FOURTEENTH".
 

zeke25

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Bibliocentrist said:
Thanks. It seems alright/good after checking it all though still a couple/few minor possible uncertainties. Seems the problem was alot due to poor/inadequite English translation of more complex (Greek) language words/cases, and having to have/do so much long (writing and) reading ("10000 words").

10th choose passover lamb, prota/protos?
11th prota/protos?
12th last supper, prota/protos.
13th thu(-fri), preparation passover/"sabbath"/highday, crucifiction, [midweek?], 1st day & 1st night.
14th, always fri(-sat), passover, 1st "sabbath", 1st of highday, 1st feast, unleavened bread, 2nd day & 2nd night.
15th, (2nd) sabbath/sat(-sun), 1st of unleavened bread, 2nd feast, 3rd day & 3rd night, rose bef mod sun dawn.
16th, sun(-mon), first day of week, first fruits
21st, seventh/last of unleavened bread.

The idea i once wondered about that the cut off in the middle of the week (and 3&1/2 days) seems probably wrong. But it is possible the cut off in middle of week could fit with your biblical-worked-out scenario since 13th is middle of 10th-16th. I had previously thought middle of week would be Wednesday but that doesn't seem possible from the evidence. (I know the 70 weeks and middle of the week has other interpretations.)
[Incidentally i will just also mention i was wondering if the 40 days (after the 3 days and 3 nights) of Jonah could be analogous with crucifiction to destruction of Jerusalem in ad70. But the eclipse seems to have been 32/33 ad so maybe not quite fit. (Jesus may have been about 39/40 ("his generation") when died/rose, if born in 7 bc and crucifiction in 32/33ad.)]
BiblioC,

Some times the Bible can be approached with absolute precision as far as times and dates go, but depending upon the wording sometimes estimates are quite adequate and even meant to be so. For example, "in the midst of the week". We could try and be dogmatic and say that must be Wednesday, but I do not believe that is what is meant at all. The midst of the week could be Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. And let's face it, Wednesday was the day of the arrest in the garden. Thursday the trial was well underway. And Thursday He was crucified. That's close enough for me for the midst of the week.

Some of that which you say, seems to indicate that you believe that a day begins at sunset. If so, I hope you are willing to change your mind. After all, that is why this thread was started - to show that the Bible teaches a sunrise day start. We don't care what the Rabbinic Jews teach, we only care what the Bible teaches.

zeke25
 

zeke25

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
So how would you eat the sacrifice when you have not sacrificed it yet?

O Help!
You haven't made yourself clear. It sounded to me as if you were inventing a new doctrine that the lamb wasn't allowed to eat. But posts 30 & 31 are further examples of you not making yourself clear. I can't respond to that which is not written with clarity. Besides, once again you have not provided any Scriptures nor challenged the Scriptures I've provided. Your opinion is not what we base doctrine upon, we base it upon Scripture - or, at least I do. If you're happy, then believe as you wish.

Zeke25
 

zeke25

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GerhardEbersoehn said:
If your jesus was sacrificed on the 13th he cannot be the Lamb of God who was "KILLED ON THE FOURTEENTH".
A flat out lie on your part. Where is your Scriptural support? I will not answer you any more. You continue to speak with forked tongue and now your are close to blaspheming. I do not want to be responsible for stirring your emotions so that you feel it necessary to blaspheme to make yourself heard.
Zeke25
 

Bibliocentrist

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Zeke/Rick:
I have already said (& willingly changed my mind to) that it seems you are right about the day begins at sunrise (in Genesis 1, etc) in post # 23 (& 25) (and had earlier said "looks like Zeke/Rick may be right" in the other thread) (+ earlier today i thought about the song "this is the day..."), and that it seems you are right about the crucfiction week (l.s. wed 12th, died thu 13th, p.o. fri 14th, etc) in post # (25 &) 29, and i said i was wrong about midst of week being wednesday and that it could/can fit your correct scenario.
I wish people would give my discoveries/theses/articles as much objective effort as i have given yours.
Thanks for your true info.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Bibliocentrist said:
As far as Genesis 1 goes the view that 24 hr day starts at sunrise seems right.
The darkness was before the light, but in the day begins at evening scenario, the first day would have an immense/eternal length night.
So instead of there was evening 6pm(-6am) and there was morning 6am(-6pm), it seems to be there came to be evening (6am-)6pm and there came to be morning (6pm)-6am, which latter is similar to modern western am (midnight to midday) first and pm (midday to midnight) after.
"All the morning stars" might also agree (morning stars ~ at dawn/start of world history/time?)
World ages & culture phases also goe Golden age to Dark/Iron age (Indian/Greek), spring to winter (Spenglar).
Genesis 8:22 also says in the order "day and night" (in English version). [Incidentally the "summer and winter" in that verse may suggest axis tilted during flood?] And the flood was "40 days and 40 nights". [Incidentally that makes 80, and is abit like "around the world in 80 days"?]
Yom(e) "day" is related to Phoenician Jom "sun" [and maybe Greek Aeon?]
But I have still yet to find your or my answers to some other confusing verses though (like why the "passover" meal was evening before crucifiction day).
(Not that i care about faith anymore though since i am still/more suffering mean/cruel Hell.)
The Bible says God made the darkness. God made everything He made in the beginning, is also a Bible word. Our thinking cannot go beyond the beginning of the creation of God unless we consult the Bible's word on that also. The Bible word is, "Christ who is the Beginning of the creation of God", meaning He was there _at that time_ because God created nothing but which He created through Christ his Word.

So, to speculate about the length of the First Day of God's creating, is speculation; no more no better. The First Day of God's creation is described with the same words as the others, it consisted of "early" and "late" -- 'boqer' and 'ereb' -- no second longer or shorter 12 times 2 hours. According to the Bible words, of course. If you're a better scientist than what the Bible teaches facts, you beat me at an answer. I would have none.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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zeke25 said:
A flat out lie on your part. Where is your Scriptural support? I will not answer you any more. You continue to speak with forked tongue and now your are close to blaspheming. I do not want to be responsible for stirring your emotions so that you feel it necessary to blaspheme to make yourself heard.
Zeke25
Speak about emotions . . . .
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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zeke25 said:
You haven't made yourself clear. It sounded to me as if you were inventing a new doctrine that the lamb wasn't allowed to eat. But posts 30 & 31 are further examples of you not making yourself clear. I can't respond to that which is not written with clarity. Besides, once again you have not provided any Scriptures nor challenged the Scriptures I've provided. Your opinion is not what we base doctrine upon, we base it upon Scripture - or, at least I do. If you're happy, then believe as you wish.

Zeke25
Of course I gave no Scripture because there is no Scripture --or logic-- for supposing a sacrifice can be eaten before it was killed.

The only animal I know which does it, is the African wild dog, the beautiful sweet creatures! Maybe cannibals also used to eat their prey alive.

But I don't think the Israelites would.