A different take on signs and wonders.

[Heart2Soul]

You seem to think you have what you do not have thinking you are in need of nothing.... this is the classic definition of complacency... Laodicea is the complacent church.

All I am trying to encourage you to do is to admit your need of Christ Jesus in his fulness. We all do.

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Eph 5:14

You should leave it to the Holy Spirit to teach him. The way the Holy Spirit explained it to me is to be humble and teach in the spirit of love to those who are still maturing in the knowledge and understanding of His Word.
We all start out as babes...feeding on the milk. Marks has a great deal of wisdom and knowledge of His Word and as the Holy Spirit leads him he will come to the unity of faith as God's Word promises....some plant, some water, but it is God who gives the increase.
BTW, @marks, I believe you have the gifts of the Holy Spirit operating through you. Especially the gift of wisdom.
I am kind of new to this teaching about the apostolic signs gifts have ceased. It's quite a shocker for me that it is even taught...but I have lived a rather sheltered life and until joining the forum I had no idea there were so many labels for Christians....cessationists, continuous, pre-tribbers, post-tribbers, solo scripture, holy scripture.....I can't remember all of them....man. Are there still some Christians...just plain ole Christians left?

 

[Enoch111]

If the only signs and wonders being done in the end-times will be those of Satan, will that not amount to God willfully letting the entire planet believe the Devil is far more powerful?

That is not God's purpose in allowing the Devil, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet to dazzle the whole unbelieving world with miracles at the time of the Antichrist's reign. God's purpose is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:

7 For the Mystery of Iniquity doth already work: only He [the Holy Spirit] who now letteth will let [restrains will restrain], until He be taken out of the way. [Note: the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn from the earth for 3 1/2 years so that the Antichrist and Satan have full control]

8 And then shall that Wicked [the Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

9 Even him [the Antichrist], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [Note: those Satanic miracles are "lying wonders" because they are not from God and meant to deceive the world]

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [Note: the ones who are deceived hated the truth when they had an opportunity to be saved]

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [Note: here is your answer]

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[Note: here is the final outcome]

At the same time, Moses and Elijah will perform miracles which will actually bring divine judgment upon the unbelieving and the ungodly:
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (Rev 11:5,6)

 

[marks]

Are there still some Christians...just plain ole Christians left?

I don't talk about it much, though I believe I am aware of spiritual gifts working through me.

God has for the most part prohibited me against speaking about myself too much. Sometimes there is a specific context or reason, and then I receive the OK, but most of the time not.

I'm not to attempt to support Biblical doctrine with personal anecdotes. I'm not saying this applies to anyone but me.

But yes, there are just plain ole Christians. Who don't feel the need to gravitate towards the sensational, and are perfectly happy to serve day to day in the guidance and strength from the Holy Spirit.

All we need to fully serve God, even to attain that unity the apostle speaks of, is ours, but be it to you according to your faith.

To the one who believes that we cannot become unified, then their lack of faith will prevent their participation in the unifying work of the Holy Spirit.

To the one who believes God's power is being withheld from us, they will most certainly not avail themselves of that power.

I understand, that when you've never seen it yourself, maybe it's difficult to accept. But we don't need to have all this erudite debate to work this out.

All we need to do is commit ourselves in love to others, and look for God to supply the working of ministry. And He will! It's as simple as that, and moment by moment. No real learning needed. But learning, if correct, will improve you.

As far as the Apostolic signs gifts, I refer to the fact that the New Testament shows these happening up until the Acts 28 time, and not after that. I don't have an opinion otherwise.

As far as Latter Rain teaching, I simply present what the Bible says about the end times, and specifically about signs and wonders.

@David H. presents something I've frequently experienced. I present Scriptures in response to his presentation, and instead of addressing the Scriptures, he goes into a long diatribe over several posts about how unspiritual I am, and am therefore not able to understand what he understands.

Lot's of people say that to others. This guy has never met me, has no idea about my spirituality.

It's easy to say, I have the gift of discerning of spirits, that that I have gifts of teaching, in prophecy, of wisdom, sometimes of knowledge, whatever . . . what does it matter what list I throw out there? I'm a voice on the internet giving my opinions of myself. So what? What is the chaff compared to the wheat?

I'm to focus on what the Bible says.

David would rather focus on me.

My life mission?

Matthew 24:45-46 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made steward over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

1 Peter 4:10-11 "As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Ephesians 4:29 "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

Focusing on these things, which I believe to be the work God gave to me, This IS the plain ole Christian life. Because the focus of any life, any child of God, should be sharing His love with those around us, in whatever form that takes.

All this discussion, debate, and associated nonsense, is to me very very light compared to the value of directly serving others. But may my words nonetheless directly serve others, in discovering that living a good life with God isn't such a mystery, we're not waiting for some outpouring, or elevation to saint status or anything like that.

Jesus came to give us abundant life, not only in eternity, but now, eternal life now.

Convoluted theologies that don't align with Scripture don't really promote that. Jesus said it's Truth that makes you free.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The way the Holy Spirit explained it to me is to be humble and teach in the spirit of love to those who are still maturing in the knowledge and understanding of His Word.

Just so!



Patiently offering the truth, trusting in God to give the increase.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Point 1. Brother, without the discernment of Spirits, I would not be able to work in the deliverance ministry, something that you would probably not understand or make account for in this conversation.

Point 2. Is this the outpouring your talking about????
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Acts 2:1-5
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Peter said in Acts 2:17
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

What part of this do you not understand???

The real reason why there will never be an agreement between these two pole positions is quite clear.
Those who do not believe that the gifts are for today are those whose doctrine does not allow for it but mainly because they do not move in those specific gifts. The reason why those who believe the gifts are for today, is mainly because they move in those gifts. Nuff said!

I really like this post, sister - especially the first sentence - for personal reasons.

God bless, and thanks for sharing!

 

[David H.]

Yet you ARE waiting for things which others believe, including myself, that you can have now, should that be God's will for you. The Spirit has been given to us, with all the service the Bible describes for us, including discerning of spirits.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. ( 1 Cor. 12:4-11)

Do You see, not every believer is given the same gifts, solely for the purpose that in unity they all may come together in unity of the Spirit which in turn empowers the church. "In One accord" we have the church empowered as at Pentecost, in division of the body, that power wanes, this is the point of 1 Cor. 13.

Jesus Prayed that we become one, perfectly one (John 17) For what purpose? Read John 17:23. You see that in your textualism, you are in effect saying you have no need of the other parts of the body, but in the fulness of Christ what you teach is only part of the whole, it is in fellowship that the fulness of Christ comes.

So Yes, I am trying to get you to open up to the other parts of the body of Christ, To join in fellowship with them, that the church as a whole can live up to what Christ desired, which is that we all become one, perfectly one as the testimony that overcomes the devil.

 

[David H.]

@David H. presents something I've frequently experienced. I present Scriptures in response to his presentation, and instead of addressing the Scriptures, he goes into a long diatribe over several posts about how unspiritual I am, and am therefore not able to understand what he understands.

Lot's of people say that to others. This guy has never met me, has no idea about my spirituality.

It's easy to say, I have the gift of discerning of spirits, that that I have gifts of teaching, in prophecy, of wisdom, sometimes of knowledge, whatever . . . what does it matter what list I throw out there? I'm a voice on the internet giving my opinions of myself. So what? What is the chaff compared to the wheat?

I'm to focus on what the Bible says.

David would rather focus on me.

And the Bible says in unity, and in one accord, the church is empowered to do signs and wonders, in division she is powerless.
So If encouraging you to find unity is offensive, then the problem is a fear of unity, the fear of admitting we all know in part and the fear of seeing receiving other believers who believe differently than you do. John gives us the test of the Spirits (1 John 4:1-6) But what happens when that person passes that test, yet what they are saying disagrees with what you are saying? Do we receive their testimony, or are we to reject them still? I think you know the answer.... It is Human pride, artificial security that breeds complacency and a lack of desire to challenge ones own way of doing things.

There is so much More that Christ has offered to us that comes in unity of the Spirit, then there is in the division we see in the church today.

Paul even pleaded for this while imprisoned, I will close this with these words...

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph. 4:1-6)

 

[marks]

You see that in your textualism, you are in effect saying you have no need of the other parts of the body,

Sure.

You label me, dismiss me, and misrepresent me.

 

[marks]

So Yes, I am trying to get you to open up to the other parts of the body of Christ, To join in fellowship with them, that the church as a whole can live up to what Christ desired, which is that we all become one, perfectly one as the testimony that overcomes the devil.

You appear to have some very strange opinions of me.

 

[marks]

You see that in your textualism, you are in effect saying you have no need of the other parts of the body, but in the fulness of Christ what you teach is only part of the whole, it is in fellowship that the fulness of Christ comes.

So Yes, I am trying to get you to open up to the other parts of the body of Christ, To join in fellowship with them, that the church as a whole can live up to what Christ desired, which is that we all become one, perfectly one as the testimony that overcomes the devil.

Let's remember here . . .

All of this nonsense you are posting about me, as if you know something about me, as if we should all listen to your opinions about me, all of this nonsense is because you apparently don't want to respond to my Scriptural responses to your assertions.

Once that was established, you continued to post your erroneous and negative statements about me.

This remains the continuing pattern of "lacking a valid argument, argue against the person."

"In your textualism . . ." and on it goes.

There is so much More that Christ has offered to us that comes in unity of the Spirit, then there is in the division we see in the church today.

Why not actually discuss this? Why not partake of some of that unity? Why push against me with your negative mischaracterizations?

But if you believe that we cannot have unity yet, until we get all the spiritual gifts back, then I could see why. Be it to you according to your faith. But if this is not part of your faith, then why even look for it?

Until we reach the fulness of the stature of Christ. I'm curious, what does that phrase mean to you? When are to we to do this? Reach the stature of the fulness of Christ? What does that mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You see that in your textualism, you are in effect saying you have no need of the other parts of the body, but in the fulness of Christ what you teach is only part of the whole, it is in fellowship that the fulness of Christ comes.

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

To be fully grown up like Jesus, so that we aren't pulled this way and that believing all these different things, and can grow up into him in all things.

There is a milestone to be reached, which afterward, we can grow up into Christ in all things. But first this milestone . . . come into unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a mature man, measuring up to Christ's fulness of stature, as relates to His maturity.

You see, the body is not effective in self-edification without first attaining unity in the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God. Not Jesus, Not Christ, the Son of God. I'm not saying I don't think this is Jesus the apostle is writing of, it is. In calling Him the Son of God in this place, as we are unifying in faith and knowledge of the Son of God, so that we can stop being tossed about by whatever someone says, and can start building the body together - in fellowship - I believe this is referring to our sonship in Christ.

When we can come to see we share the same faith, we share the same knowledge of Jesus, that we have unity in this, then, not before, we will accept from each other the ministry God wants us to give to each other.

This tells me that the unity spoken of here is not that we are all pre-trib, or all amillennial, but rather, we are all saved by grace, we are all in the body of Christ, we are all trusting in Him, we are all one in Christ.

Accept that, embrace that, and we can have the unity of faith and knowledge - majoring on the majors and not the minors - that we can share that unity in love.

4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love.

This is the path to unity.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So If encouraging you to find unity is offensive,

Of course I don't find admonitions to seek unity offensive. Sure. More assumption. More ad hominem.

The signs and wonders prophesied for the end times are deceptive, lying, as previously noted.

Pointing this out has led to a seemingly unending stream of posts against my person.

Seriously. Think this through . . . what that says.

There is so much More that Christ has offered to us that comes in unity of the Spirit, then there is in the division we see in the church today.

Consider. We begin a discussion about Scripture, but you have diverted the Scriptural discussion into a person platform upon which you have chosen to attempt to impugn me as a person.

What does that say to you about unity and division?

Do I talk about you the way you talk about me? That's rhetorical. I don't go on and on about how unspiritual or whatever you. That is what you are doing. I hope sometime you can see that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is so much More that Christ has offered to us that comes in unity of the Spirit, then there is in the division we see in the church today.

How to find that unity!

Humbling ourselves.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So Yes, I am trying to get you to open up to the other parts of the body of Christ, To join in fellowship with them,

I'm curious . . . what is your foundation for saying this? What is it that you think that causes you to speak as you do?

Much love!

 

[marks]

the Bible says in unity, and in one accord, the church is empowered to do signs and wonders,

Where does it say this? As many times as I've read it, I've never seen this. Please point me to the place.

Much love!

 

[marks]

then the problem is a fear of unity, the fear of admitting we all know in part and the fear of seeing receiving other believers who believe differently than you do.

Maybe you might consider taking some time to read more of my posts to others who believe very differently than I do, and then come back to this discussion.

Much love

 

[David H.]

Consider. We begin a discussion about Scripture, but you have diverted the Scriptural discussion into a person platform upon which you have chosen to attempt to impugn me as a person.

What does that say to you about unity and division?

Do I talk about you the way you talk about me? That's rhetorical. I don't go on and on about how unspiritual or whatever you. That is what you are doing. I hope sometime you can see that.

To answer your rhetorical question, yes you do speak that way. Except you do not say how "unspiritual" I am but rather how "untextual" or unorthodox my beliefs are compared to yours. Do You understand? I have read enough of your comments to make this assessment.

I'm curious . . . what is your foundation for saying this? What is it that you think that causes you to speak as you do?

I Speak, or write as the Holy Ghost gives me utterance. "I" Am not always good at expressing what He is showing me, But I try to do so to the best of my abilities. There are always three responses to the word of the Holy Ghost I get from people. One is receiving what is said with humility, the second is skepticism and questioning which is most common, and the third is opposition. Sometimes the second morphs into the third, sometimes the second morphs into the first, I have no control over that and this is not my victory to claim for my glory as what I write is not me But the Holy Ghost in me. All glory is his.

The real question is where is your skepticism leading you? Are you able to hear what the Spirit says to the church?

Where does it say this? As many times as I've read it, I've never seen this. Please point me to the place.

The verse you quoted from Acts 2:1-2. This being in one accord is the reason why the apostolic church was able to perform signs and wonders as it did, and why the church today is not. The cessationism and continuism debate is just one aspect (excuse) to avoid joining in unity and admitting the need to do so. This is by definition complacency, which is systemic to the postmodern church. Just like the mod here spoke of this divide "never" being bridged, I cannot say never because I Know the Holy Ghost will move and bridge this divide.

You keep saying signs and wonders will be used to deceive in the end, I agree, and there will be a false unity and a false revival and outpouring in the end times as well, and these things will be used to separate the wheat from the tares, and those whose eyes are still carnal will fall for the deception But not those whose eyes have been opened by the eyesalve of God.... But in order for this to happen, you must first admit to the need for the eyesalve of God, as only then can he open the eyes, He will not force you to see what you do not want to see.

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. (Phil. 2:1-4)

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:13-16)

For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; (Col 1:9)

In All of the above cases, Paul is writing to the churches not to unbelievers.... think about that. God Bless

 

[marks]

Except you do not say how "unspiritual" I am but rather how "untextual" or unorthodox my beliefs are compared to yours. Do You understand? I have read enough of your comments to make this assessment.

What I'm interested in is a discussion of the Scriptures, and comparing . . . not to me, what value is that? Comparing to the Bible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I Speak, or write as the Holy Ghost gives me utterance.

So God told you that.

This is sufficient for me.

Thank you! I appreciate the discussion, that is, when it is about God, and the Bible, but not when you want to discuss your erroneous ideas about me, formed in ignorance. Seriously! You really do not know me.

I hope you find what you seek.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

What I'm interested in is a discussion of the Scriptures, and comparing . . . not to me, what value is that? Comparing to the Bible.

And I have given you ample scriptural support for my positions. Take some time off from this discussion and then go and reread what was written here without the assumption of animosity in my writings and instead try and find the exhortation in the words spoken to you. You are reading things into my comments like superiority and looking down on you, when that is not in my heart, My hearts desire and burden is for all believers to walk in the Power of the Holy Ghost, and it is in the Spirit of encouragement that I have written and taken the time to comment with you. You cannot encourage someone to be better without showing them what they are missing out on, this is simple logic, and is not intended to offend but to convict.

Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 15:5-6)

God Bless.