A different take on signs and wonders.

[David H.]

After reading about 5 or so pages of debate on whether signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit are still occurring on another thread here, I thought I would chime in with a post that has a slightly different view.

Heavenly Father grant me the unction to speak what you are showing me, May your will be done in Jesus Name, Amen.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Earlier on this forum I have said that the gift of discerning of the spirits has been nullified in this day and age. I Believe this is of God's doing, and by his will that the church is in a state of flux and uncertainty over the issues. We see these sorts of debates ad infinitum online with little or no resolution ever, and they include not just this debate on cessationism and continuism of the gifts of the spirit, but also on many other divides.

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue, save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation. In Other words, God has chosen to make us Blind, That in the end we will all desire to see.

To some this blindness manifests in not seeing the gifts of the spirit, and to others it comes in the form of accepting all signs and wonders whether true or false as gifts of the spirit. In this regard both sides on this debate are blind. One is Blind to the gifts existence, while the other is largely blind to the existence of false signs and wonders, and are blindly deceived, and in some cases deceiving themselves. These are hard words for both sides.

But as I said, there is a reason for this, and that is that faith comes not by seeing, As the opening verse alludes to. Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." This Blindness is there for the purpose of making us desire this final outpouring of the gift of the discernment of spirits, the eyesalve of God as spoken of in Revelation. Until we whether continuationist or charismatic come to see this need together we will continue to squabble, and this squabbling is part and parcel to us coming to desire the gift of seeing.

This is why this final outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits is so vital and to be sought for by all involved. I would think even the fundamentalist has to agree that we as a church are in dire need of this, and instead of condemning the charismatic, they should be asking why they are not seeing, Just as the charismatic who condemns the fundamentalist for not seeing should pray that they should come to see what the fundamentalist has a controversy about, as to the seducing spirits involved. This is the unity of the Spirit. This is not compromise, but rather Humility and Love for brothers and sisters who are diverse from one another.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor. 13: 8-10)

I Post these verses with the following questions for both sides, for the Charismatic, Do You acknowledge that there is a time when these things shall pass away, and that your prophecies may fail? and for the Fundamentalist, Has that "perfect come in" yet which is when these gifts will cease? Please think about this. Let the words convict you.

For His Glory.

 

[DNB]

Yes, there is a time when these things shall cease, as we understand that they won't be necessary under a certain context and administration. And that would be during the reign of Christ, when all things will be revealed, even his preordained Lordship. Therefore, that which is perfect has not yet arrived, where we will see him as he is, and thus in the interim, there is a dire need for such enlightenment, discernment and aid.
I strongly question your idea and understanding of faith, especially in the context that you justified it. Ignorance is not faith, nor is lack of knowledge. Wisdom is faith, discernment is faith, i.e. seeing the things that have not transpired yet, but due to your insights, you trust that they will come to pass in one manner or another, depending on your wisdom. Faith is never without evidence, credulity is. Discernment, perception and insight gain evidence in order to establish one's faith. Otherwise, faith is frivolous and unstable.

 

[kcnalp]

Yes, there is a time when these things shall cease, as we understand that they won't be necessary under a certain context and administration. And that would be during the reign of Christ, when all things will be revealed, even his preordained Lordship. Therefore, that which is perfect has not yet arrived, where we will see him as he is, and thus in the interim, there is a dire need for such enlightenment, discernment and aid.
I strongly question your idea and understanding of faith, especially in the context that you justified it. Ignorance is not faith, nor is lack of knowledge. Wisdom is faith, discernment is faith, i.e. seeing the things that have not transpired yet, but due to your insights, you trust that they will come to pass in one manner or another, depending on your wisdom. Faith is never without evidence, credulity is. Discernment, perception and insight gain evidence in order to establish one's faith. Otherwise, faith is frivolous and unstable.

I would definitely declare those who support Dems who BUTCHER millions of babies for $$$ as "unstable".

 

[DNB]

I would definitely declare those who support Dems who BUTCHER millions of babies for $$$ as "unstable".

Wouldn't you consider a person who answers a thread on faith, with a remark on the Democrats, as unstable? I would.

 

[kcnalp]

Wouldn't you consider a person who answers a thread on faith, with a remark on the Democrats, as unstable? I would.

"I would definitely declare those who support Dems who BUTCHER millions of babies for $$$ as "unstable"."

 

[David H.]

Ignorance is not faith, nor is lack of knowledge. Wisdom is faith, discernment is faith, i.e. seeing the things that have not transpired yet, but due to your insights, you trust that they will come to pass in one manner or another, depending on your wisdom.

Have you ever had your faith tried and tested? Has there ever been a time when you are called to believe something, even when all the facts seem to be contrary and all the wisdom of the world counters these beliefs? This is where we are heading in this world, IMO. There is going to be a way that seems right yet leads to destruction and this way will be promoted by many in churches and religious groups.... I am speaking of the strong delusion here.... And in this time your faith will be tested, and it will be easy to fall for the deception. Many in church circles are already falling for this , as it is being promoted even now.

From what I see in your response is that your faith is based in Human intellect as the discerner, Not the Mind of Christ. In other words your faith seems to be in your intellect and understanding as opposed to a transformed mind (Romans 12:2)

Take the time to read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16. I think this may help you understand what I am trying to say to you. I see this as the very heart of the coming deception/delusion, and that is that most will be trusting in their own understanding (theology) as opposed to the relationship with Christ, as in the words of Christ of those who were prophesying and casting out devils in Christ's name, but never KNEW them.

To me, We believe IN the faith OF Christ. (Gal. 2:16 KJV) This is one of those verses you need to Read in the KJV as the other versions do not show this nuance well, and this is where this strong delusion is founded.

 

[marks]

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue, save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation. In Other words, God has chosen to make us Blind, That in the end we will all desire to see.

To some this blindness manifests in not seeing the gifts of the spirit, and to others it comes in the form of accepting all signs and wonders whether true or false as gifts of the spirit. In this regard both sides on this debate are blind. One is Blind to the gifts existence, while the other is largely blind to the existence of false signs and wonders, and are blindly deceived, and in some cases deceiving themselves. These are hard words for both sides.

Hi David,

I don't agree with you on this.

All the gifts continue. Where do we pick one, and say, This one, it has ceased?

And besides, I have every reason to think this gift continues today.

I believe the reason for what you are seeing is fully different than the cessation of a spiritual gift.

The lack of humility and basic maturity in Christ leaves us divided.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Has there ever been a time when you are called to believe something, even when all the facts seem to be contrary and all the wisdom of the world counters these beliefs?

Isn't this our daily life?

 

[David H.]

I don't agree with you on this.

All the gifts continue. Where do we pick one, and say, This one, it has ceased?

And besides, I have every reason to think this gift continues today.

I Did not say this gift has ceased, only that it is being withheld. Big difference. There are so many voices out there, but none of the tribe of Issachar. Think about that.

 

[DNB]

"I would definitely declare those who support Dems who BUTCHER millions of babies for $$$ as "unstable"."

Go away!

 

[marks]

I Did not say this gift has ceased, only that it is being withheld. Big difference. There are so many voices out there, but none of the tribe of Issachar. Think about that.

Well, I disagree that it's being withheld. There's nothing in the Bible making that gift a different sort from the rest. And I don't believe that there is an induced lack of discerning of spirits that translates into confusion over doctrine. I believe Scripture teaches that confusion over doctrines within the church results from the lack of unity experienced by immature Christians. When we become grounded in our faith and knowledge of Jesus Himself, then we can begin to come together and reach unity of doctrine.

Of course that same immaturity will result in poor use of spiritual gifts, I imagine!

As far as Issachar's voice, did you have a comment to make?

Much love!

 

[DNB]

Have you ever had your faith tried and tested? Has there ever been a time when you are called to believe something, even when all the facts seem to be contrary and all the wisdom of the world counters these beliefs? This is where we are heading in this world, IMO. There is going to be a way that seems right yet leads to destruction and this way will be promoted by many in churches and religious groups.... I am speaking of the strong delusion here.... And in this time your faith will be tested, and it will be easy to fall for the deception. Many in church circles are already falling for this , as it is being promoted even now.

From what I see in your response is that your faith is based in Human intellect as the discerner, Not the Mind of Christ. In other words your faith seems to be in your intellect and understanding as opposed to a transformed mind (Romans 12:2)

Take the time to read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16. I think this may help you understand what I am trying to say to you. I see this as the very heart of the coming deception/delusion, and that is that most will be trusting in their own understanding (theology) as opposed to the relationship with Christ, as in the words of Christ of those who were prophesying and casting out devils in Christ's name, but never KNEW them.

To me, We believe IN the faith OF Christ. (Gal. 2:16 KJV) This is one of those verses you need to Read in the KJV as the other versions do not show this nuance well, and this is where this strong delusion is founded.

My point was, these things were revealed to us, and we understand why they must come to pass, ...in order to confound the rebels and reveal the man of lawlessness. even as Christ said, '...I have told you these things in advance so that they will not take you by surprise...', or, '...For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect....'. Therefore, there is wisdom in watching certain events unfold, we understand the grounds behind them, and whose pulling the strings to have them executed. Christians are not naïve nor ignorant.

 

[Bobby Jo]

I Did not say this gift has ceased, only that it is being withheld. ...

It would appear that you've hung you hat on the verse which you quoted:

1 Cor. 13 ... but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.​

... as though this is ALREADY GIVEN, -- when in fact, we won't need these GIFTS in Heaven. So it would appear that you've failed to incorporate that FUTURE which won't pertain for another thousand years.


So until then, PLEASE USE ALL GOD's AVAILABLE RESOURCES so that you can get through the challenges of this life!
Bobby Jo

 

[Waiting on him]

Have you ever had your faith tried and tested? Has there ever been a time when you are called to believe something, even when all the facts seem to be contrary and all the wisdom of the world counters these beliefs? This is where we are heading in this world, IMO. There is going to be a way that seems right yet leads to destruction and this way will be promoted by many in churches and religious groups.... I am speaking of the strong delusion here.... And in this time your faith will be tested, and it will be easy to fall for the deception. Many in church circles are already falling for this , as it is being promoted even now.

From what I see in your response is that your faith is based in Human intellect as the discerner, Not the Mind of Christ. In other words your faith seems to be in your intellect and understanding as opposed to a transformed mind (Romans 12:2)

Take the time to read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16. I think this may help you understand what I am trying to say to you. I see this as the very heart of the coming deception/delusion, and that is that most will be trusting in their own understanding (theology) as opposed to the relationship with Christ, as in the words of Christ of those who were prophesying and casting out devils in Christ's name, but never KNEW them.

To me, We believe IN the faith OF Christ. (Gal. 2:16 KJV) This is one of those verses you need to Read in the KJV as the other versions do not show this nuance well, and this is where this strong delusion is founded.

Those that are looking for the restoration of dirt , are gonna get just that.

 

[David H.]

My point was, these things were revealed to us, and we understand why they must come to pass, ...in order to confound the rebels and reveal the man of lawlessness. even as Christ said, '...I have told you these things in advance so that they will not take you by surprise...', or, '...For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect....'. Therefore, there is wisdom in watching certain events unfold, we understand the grounds behind them, and whose pulling the strings to have them executed. Christians are not naïve nor ignorant.

The Understanding is that the wheat and the tares are together and will be separated not by men but by angels. Until then to a certain degree we are all ignorant of who are the tares among us... correct? In the end we shall see them for who they are. This is what the end time final revival and outpouring is about.

 

[marks]

This is what the end time final revival and outpouring is about.

No . . . the end times signs and wonders will be those to deceive the world into worshiping the beast.

Of course there will also be the witnesses striking the earth with plagues, so that could count maybe.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

No . . . the end times signs and wonders will be those to deceive the world into worshiping the beast.

Of course there will also be the witnesses striking the earth with plagues, so that could count maybe.

Much love!

Exactly !

 

[Hidden In Him]

Exactly !

Says who? LoL. If the only signs and wonders being done in the end-times will be those of Satan, will that not amount to God willfully letting the entire planet believe the Devil is far more powerful? How is the end-time harvest going to take place when Satan proves himself powerful and the supposedly "Living" God proves Himself A. impotent, B. a liar, and C. apparently dead, by demonstrating no similar proofs of His existence? And since when in the history of the entire Bible has God ever shied away from demonstrating to this world that His power was GREATER than Satan's?

Your position is utterly without scriptural foundation.

Hope you are having a nice evening, btw.

 

[Irwin Fletcher]

After reading about 5 or so pages of debate on whether signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit are still occurring on another thread here, I thought I would chime in with a post that has a slightly different view.

Heavenly Father grant me the unction to speak what you are showing me, May your will be done in Jesus Name, Amen.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Earlier on this forum I have said that the gift of discerning of the spirits has been nullified in this day and age. I Believe this is of God's doing, and by his will that the church is in a state of flux and uncertainty over the issues. We see these sorts of debates ad infinitum online with little or no resolution ever, and they include not just this debate on cessationism and continuism of the gifts of the spirit, but also on many other divides.

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue, save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation. In Other words, God has chosen to make us Blind, That in the end we will all desire to see.

To some this blindness manifests in not seeing the gifts of the spirit, and to others it comes in the form of accepting all signs and wonders whether true or false as gifts of the spirit. In this regard both sides on this debate are blind. One is Blind to the gifts existence, while the other is largely blind to the existence of false signs and wonders, and are blindly deceived, and in some cases deceiving themselves. These are hard words for both sides.

But as I said, there is a reason for this, and that is that faith comes not by seeing, As the opening verse alludes to. Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." This Blindness is there for the purpose of making us desire this final outpouring of the gift of the discernment of spirits, the eyesalve of God as spoken of in Revelation. Until we whether continuationist or charismatic come to see this need together we will continue to squabble, and this squabbling is part and parcel to us coming to desire the gift of seeing.

This is why this final outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits is so vital and to be sought for by all involved. I would think even the fundamentalist has to agree that we as a church are in dire need of this, and instead of condemning the charismatic, they should be asking why they are not seeing, Just as the charismatic who condemns the fundamentalist for not seeing should pray that they should come to see what the fundamentalist has a controversy about, as to the seducing spirits involved. This is the unity of the Spirit. This is not compromise, but rather Humility and Love for brothers and sisters who are diverse from one another.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor. 13: 8-10)

I Post these verses with the following questions for both sides, for the Charismatic, Do You acknowledge that there is a time when these things shall pass away, and that your prophecies may fail? and for the Fundamentalist, Has that "perfect come in" yet which is when these gifts will cease? Please think about this. Let the words convict you.

For His Glory.

One different perspective. I've noticed that in addition the differences that various faith traditions have on this issue, you also find that it varies greatly by culture. In some countries/peoples, they have a much stronger belief in the role of the supernatural culturally. Because of this, they see or believe they see the occurrence of the supernatural from God as a part of their normal range of life. The opposite is also true. Those who don't believe in the supernatural as a culture rarely even think about these types of supernatural events as happening in the modern age.

 

[Hidden In Him]

After reading about 5 or so pages of debate on whether signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit are still occurring on another thread here, I thought I would chime in with a post that has a slightly different view.

Heavenly Father grant me the unction to speak what you are showing me, May your will be done in Jesus Name, Amen.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Earlier on this forum I have said that the gift of discerning of the spirits has been nullified in this day and age. I Believe this is of God's doing, and by his will that the church is in a state of flux and uncertainty over the issues. We see these sorts of debates ad infinitum online with little or no resolution ever, and they include not just this debate on cessationism and continuism of the gifts of the spirit, but also on many other divides.

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue, save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation. In Other words, God has chosen to make us Blind, That in the end we will all desire to see.

To some this blindness manifests in not seeing the gifts of the spirit, and to others it comes in the form of accepting all signs and wonders whether true or false as gifts of the spirit. In this regard both sides on this debate are blind. One is Blind to the gifts existence, while the other is largely blind to the existence of false signs and wonders, and are blindly deceived, and in some cases deceiving themselves. These are hard words for both sides.

But as I said, there is a reason for this, and that is that faith comes not by seeing, As the opening verse alludes to. Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." This Blindness is there for the purpose of making us desire this final outpouring of the gift of the discernment of spirits, the eyesalve of God as spoken of in Revelation. Until we whether continuationist or charismatic come to see this need together we will continue to squabble, and this squabbling is part and parcel to us coming to desire the gift of seeing.

This is why this final outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits is so vital and to be sought for by all involved. I would think even the fundamentalist has to agree that we as a church are in dire need of this, and instead of condemning the charismatic, they should be asking why they are not seeing, Just as the charismatic who condemns the fundamentalist for not seeing should pray that they should come to see what the fundamentalist has a controversy about, as to the seducing spirits involved. This is the unity of the Spirit. This is not compromise, but rather Humility and Love for brothers and sisters who are diverse from one another.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor. 13: 8-10)

I Post these verses with the following questions for both sides, for the Charismatic, Do You acknowledge that there is a time when these things shall pass away, and that your prophecies may fail? and for the Fundamentalist, Has that "perfect come in" yet which is when these gifts will cease? Please think about this. Let the words convict you.

For His Glory.

Hello, David.

Not sure I can subscribe to the idea that the gift of discernment alone has been withheld either, I'm afraid. I take the reference to eye salve to be scriptural and spiritual blindness as a whole, rather than simply a lack of discernment. But I do agree that it is a problem that has led to their being two primary camps that are at odds with each other now.

God bless, and I applaud your desire to see unity in the Spirit coming to pass.