A few questions..

[whirlwind]

(Atheist.85;33126)
So, we were created with a plan in mind, from an omnipotent god, and given free will, only to be punished for exercising that very same free will to believe in whatever we want? What is the point of free will from a god, when that god says there is only one way? Not very free if you ask me. What is the point in creating us if hes just going to kill us all off eventually and torture the ones whom didn't believe exactly as they were told? This does not sound like a benevolent god to me, seems rather sadistic and enigmatic to put it lightly.
No Atheist...that is not the plan. He gave some free will but He also has His elect that were "chosen" from before....He can use His elect and place them where He needs them to be to help those of free will. As I said, He wants all to come to repentance and is bending over backwards to achieve that but it will not last forever.Those of "free will" are given that for a reason. They are those that failed back in the time the others were chosen. He gives them this time, this age, to make a choice to see what they will do this go around. So...He is far from being "sadistic and enigmatic." He lays out His plan in the letter He wrote us. He tells us where, why, who, etc....everything that will take place. If He was sadistic He wouldn't have given anyone this second chance to make the proper decision and choose Him over Satan's deception.He gives us everything and asks for very little in return but He does ask. If you feel that loving Him, believing in the Son He sent that was crucified for YOU, and repenting for your sins is too much to ask......then there isn't too much to be said....is there?........Whirlwind

 

[Atheist.85]

(whirlwind;33135)
No Atheist...that is not the plan. He gave some free will but He also has His elect that were "chosen" from before....He can use His elect and place them where He needs them to be to help those of free will. As I said, He wants all to come to repentance and is bending over backwards to achieve that but it will not last forever.Those of "free will" are given that for a reason. They are those that failed back in the time the others were chosen. He gives them this time, this age, to make a choice to see what they will do this go around. So...He is far from being "sadistic and enigmatic." He lays out His plan in the letter He wrote us. He tells us where, why, who, etc....everything that will take place. If He was sadistic He wouldn't have given anyone this second chance to make the proper decision and choose Him over Satan's deception.He gives us everything and asks for very little in return but He does ask. If you feel that loving Him, believing in the Son He sent that was crucified for YOU, and repenting for your sins is too much to ask......then there isn't too much to be said....is there?........Whirlwind
Why would he try so hard to save one kind of his creations (humans) from his also created concept of "sin". But, if they failed to do so as he sees fit(which through his omnipotence he already knew about), judge them for doing what he knew they'd do(and apparently created them to do so), then throw them down to satan (whom he also created) to be punished forever, in hell which he also designed. That can't make sense to anyone!And god also had chosen people to help guide free will? Thats like putting someone in a jail cell that they can't get out of, and saying "you have absolute freedom while you are stuck here"

 

[Christina]

(Atheist.85;33126)
So, we were created with a plan in mind, from an omnipotent god, and given free will, only to be punished for exercising that very same free will to believe in whatever we want? What is the point of free will from a god, when that god says there is only one way? Not very free if you ask me. What is the point in creating us if hes just going to kill us all off eventually and torture the ones whom didn't believe exactly as they were told? This does not sound like a benevolent god to me, seems rather sadistic and enigmatic to put it lightly.
Well this is the problem with talking with a non believer you always question the wrong things. God is called Father for a reason think of your very own parents they birthed you. And you born with a free will but they made rules for you to follow they taught you lessons they had hopes for you. Why did they do this because they loved you What did they want in return?? you to be happy and to love and respect them it is no differnt with God. He gives us free will because he wants our love and true love can not be forced it must be given willingly. He gives 10 rules the live by (10 commandments)he tells us we will all make mistakes and sin but he has given us a way to wipe the slate clean. Why is this different than your flesh parents???You make it sound like being a Christain is so hard a punishment you are wrong it is the natural way we should want to be. Do you not think its important to be a good person?? And yes we are told at the end of this age Christ will return to gather those that believed those that loved him out of free will This seems to be a detestable thought for the non- believer Well sorry, but I say to bad, you have the exact same choices we do if you dont chose to Love your father why is that our fault??If in your flesh family your parents told you and your siblings they were going to be punished if they didnt follow the rules and you followed them and your siblings didnt is that your fault??The facts are is really makes no difference if you believe in God or notyou dont have a choice in that you are one of his children you can deny it tillthe cows come home and it changes nothing. He loves you whether or not you return that love Same as you could disown your flesh parents it would change nothing the fact would always remain they gave birth to you You can choose not to associate with your parents as you have done God but if your parents did everything they did out of love for you who would be in the wrong you or your parents??? It is the same with God everything he does is because he loves us and is protecting us from bad things.We are not forced to believe this out of fear or in turn for a reward, we love loving him it fulfills us the things he gives back to us are not tangable how to you put a price on unconditional love and peaceof our souls. To understand we never face anything alone.

 

[Thunder1]

Atheist.85 :From my own experiences in the world, trust and love must be earned, not to be blindly given away to anyone or anything that claims they have what I am searching for.Thunder1:IN the world with other fellowmen it is true, but God is different. God loves you unconditionally.

 

[Thunder1]

Atheist.85 : So, we were created with a plan in mind, from an omnipotent god, and given free will, only to be punished for exercising that very same free will to believe in whatever we want? What is the point of free will from a god, when that god says there is only one way? Not very free if you ask me. What is the point in creating us if hes just going to kill us all off eventually and torture the ones whom didn't believe exactly as they were told? This does not sound like a benevolent god to me, seems rather sadistic and enigmatic to put it lightly.Thunder1:Free will ; to not believe the truth or believe the lie. Follow satan or follow the True God. There is spiritual war going on all the time about your soul. Devil wants it and God wants you. You may choose. God did not create the devil. But God is not forcing you,but He would so much like you to choose the light and salvation instead of darkness and hell. God does not want you to go to hell. Is that sadistic from His part?

 

[Thunder1]

(tmlee;33127)
I am new...i wont make this long and drawn out. Its all about Faith...God is a faith God. I believe in Christ because I know for a fact that I am saved by his blood. There aint no reason to get into explaining it...if you dont have faith, you dont have anything. This may not answer your questions, but this is my simple answer to why i choose Christianity.
You are right. It is about faith. Opposite to that is unbelief. God made it simple.

 

[whirlwind]

(Atheist.85;33144)
Why would he try so hard to save one kind of his creations (humans) from his also created concept of "sin". But, if they failed to do so as he sees fit(which through his omnipotence he already knew about), judge them for doing what he knew they'd do(and apparently created them to do so), then throw them down to satan (whom he also created) to be punished forever, in hell which he also designed. That can't make sense to anyone!
No one is punished forever. When they're gone they are gone.He tries so hard to save humans because He loves us. He didn't create sin. He does know we will sin and He sent the Son to take the stripes...our stripes for our sins

. All we have to do in return is ask for forgiveness of those sins....that is all.
And god also had chosen people to help guide free will? Thats like putting someone in a jail cell that they can't get out of, and saying "you have absolute freedom while you are stuck here"
The elect, the chosen, don't necessarily guide. They are used to teach, to bring His Word forward, to help others. They are His servants and do His will. Because they have already passed the test that those of free will have not....He can and does guide their lives. He places them where they need to be to reach those God wants to be reached. I assure you not one of the elect feels "stuck here" nor should one of the free will resent their assistance. Actually, they will probably never realize how God works in their lives....at least until their eyes are opened..........Whirlwind

 

[Atheist.85]

(Thunder1;33164)
Is that sadistic from His part?
After having read the bible myself before, I think a quote from Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion, could more eloquently state my impression of the god of the bible... "The God of the bible is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror" ......Thomas Jefferson - better read - was of a similar opinion: "The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust."I'm not out to offend anyone, and I apologize if I have, but I couldn't have summed up what I learned, better than that, about this god in the bible, from my personal point of view.

 

[BearingChristaHammer]

Atheist.85,Here is why I believe in Christ. Quite candidly I believe because of what I have seen. When I came to Christ, or rather when He came to me, I was having trouble breathing. I had seen many specialist, doctors, chiropractors, etc. I had near fatal levels of oxygen and no one could help. I got cat scans, x-rays, and other test done only to leave the medical prestige of our times baffled...and me without any help.Weeks prior to this I had been under attacks spiritually; demons manifested before my eyes. They couldn't hurt me, but they sure scared the hell out of me for awhile. I stated really seeking God in prayer and I know these attacks came only to try and keep me from growing spiritually. When I pressed on in prayer I eventually got attacked and chased, I felt I was becoming a target for possession.Long story short Christ was there for me in a bind and I was filled with the Holy Spirit, the demon fled and my chest was healed. When my chest was healed I saw this black cloud shoot out of my chest. I was full of light and so was the room we were in, it was shooting through me from God. It was a miracle, but the most important thing in all this is that I head a voice inside me telling my that my sins were forgiven. It was Christ. I cried uncontrollably full of an ineffable joy. I blissfully worshiped in His presence for half an hour. If the presence of God in heaven is 1/10000000th of what that felt like then I can't wait!My dad was downstairs in the shower at the time this happened and he started to sing praises uncontrollably. My dad just doesn't sing either and I don't mean not well - I mean not at all. There was more to this testimony than this, but thats the quick gist of it. Now I will say that I did believe before this however this to me is more of a testimony to you and thats why I mention it here.As for me personally I know you seem to have a contradiction to this but that doesn't make this dynamic any less real for me or for my God. I am not in a religion - I hate religion and so does God. Religion is what man makes when they think they are following God. It is a failed attempt at man's ability to do so. I have what is called a relationship - can you not see the difference in that?It's easy to misconstrue His love for us. Just as a little kid may at times abhor the punishment of his father, so many resent the ways of our Father in Heaven. Ultimately, however, His ways are far better than our ways and His judgments are final. He judges in righteousness having created everything from the foundations of the world clear to the heights of heaven. The mere fact that so many do seek after Him even if vainly in religion attest to what He has placed in our hearts that we should seek Him.Your not going to see Him with your eyes though and if your called you'll come to Him, it's as simple as that. I challenge you to approach this from a different perspective - a believing one. Look for things that prove God, His fingerprints here on earth, others testimony of Him - much like mine.I know many things may seem like a contradiction concerning Him but we are only man. Not only is our knowledge small and flawed compared to His but we are easily deceived and follow after our own hearts desires. Christ sets us apart form this buy offering us His vision through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Through this all things are brought into understanding, even the really difficult things, but it takes time and it is a transformation much the same way your life would change in a marriage, but for the better, lol.I don't know thats really all I can offer you. I've got the smarts as many do here and the resources to draw from to tango with any atheist or any other belief up to the last argument, but this is all vanity if we only seek to disprove and not to seek in understanding. I have been atheist once, I know what it's like. All I can say is that God's knowledge is richer than all the so called evidence in the world that He doesn't exist because He truly lives even in me.

 

[Atheist.85]

(BearingChristaHammer;33530)
Weeks prior to this I had been under attacks spiritually; demons manifested before my eyes. They couldn't hurt me, but they sure scared the hell out of me for awhile. I stated really seeking God in prayer and I know these attacks came only to try and keep me from growing spiritually. When I pressed on in prayer I eventually got attacked and chased, I felt I was becoming a target for possession.Long story short Christ was there for me in a bind and I was filled with the Holy Spirit, the demon fled and my chest was healed. When my chest was healed I saw this black cloud shoot out of my chest. I was full of light and so was the room we were in, it was shooting through me from God. It was a miracle, but the most important thing in all this is that I head a voice inside me telling my that my sins were forgiven. It was Christ. I cried uncontrollably full of an ineffable joy. I blissfully worshiped in His presence for half an hour. If the presence of God in heaven is 1/10000000th of what that felt like then I can't wait!
I do hope that you are metaphorically speaking about demonic possession and hearing voices, but if you are indeed literal, I'm not really sure how to respond. (BearingChristaHammer;33530)
I challenge you to approach this from a different perspective - a believing one. Look for things that prove God, His fingerprints here on earth, others testimony of Him - much like mine.
I am looking for proof of god, something that is tangibly and physically and without a doubt evident of some higher being. So far I've come up with nothing that isn't natural or explainable by science in some way, and I would venture to guess it will stay that way.

 

[Thunder1]

(Atheist.85;33525)
After having read the bible myself before, I think a quote from Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion, could more eloquently state my impression of the god of the bible... "The God of the bible is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror" ......Thomas Jefferson - better read - was of a similar opinion: "The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust."I'm not out to offend anyone, and I apologize if I have, but I couldn't have summed up what I learned, better than that, about this god in the bible, from my personal point of view.
You are answering to and arguing with God. If that's your opinion and you want to stay that way, it's up to you. It's not my thing to need to prove you anything. God wants you to be saved. He has given you the gift of Salvation if you don't want to receive it, that is not my problem.Love Thunder1

 

[Atheist.85]

(Thunder1;33536)
You are answering to and arguing with God. If that's your opinion and you want to stay that way, it's up to you. It's not my thing to need to prove you anything. God wants you to be saved. He has given you the gift of Salvation if you don't want to receive it, that is not my problem.Love Thunder1
Fine with me, I'll keep searching for truth and answers, and you can stay stonewalled and blinded by faith.

 

[Hawkins]

(Atheist.85;33535)
I am looking for proof of god, something that is tangibly and physically and without a doubt evident of some higher being. So far I've come up with nothing that isn't natural or explainable by science in some way, and I would venture to guess it will stay that way.
I was once upon a time in the same status as you are and thinking the same way as you are.If you read through the Bible, you'll notice that all we need to be saved is basically Faith. Do you need faith to believe in science? No, you don't. So when you see strong physical evidence scientifically that God exists, you no longer need Faith to believe in. And you won't be saved in this case.Actually, the above is well explained in Genesis. If you failed to see that, it's not just about how things are interpretated, it's more and mostly about whether you are guided by the Holy Spirit when you read through the Bible. This point is also well-explained by Paul in his letters.So what we come up here is, Christianity is not about a what a religion is, it's all about how a relationship is with God.

 

[Lunar]

(Atheist.85;33535)
I am looking for proof of god, something that is tangibly and physically and without a doubt evident of some higher being. So far I've come up with nothing that isn't natural or explainable by science in some way, and I would venture to guess it will stay that way.
You won't get one. You're correct to think that there is no proof of God.If someone were to say that they arrived at their belief of God empirically, or through some rational proof, I would think they were very misguided - not for trying, as empiricism and rationality are two things which I admire very much, but for thinking that they had found a proof.Here is the way that I look at it. All things become a faith call at a certain level. Science and reason are considered the standard for objectivity, and in general I think that science and reason are very useful. However, even they cannot be justified in the absence of all other things. Obviously, you cannot offer a rational proof of rationality, nor can you offer empirical evidence for induction.There are some basic beliefs which we simply must cling to in order to make sense of the world. For some people, reason and science seems to be enough. But in terms of ultimate justification, reason and science have no more claim to legitimacy than faith does. Because of this, I would view Christianity not as something which is to be made sense of through the world, but something through which we make sense of the world. It, like science and reason, is something which we must be passionately moved to adopt.As I said in the other thread, if you are not finding yourself moved to adopt Christianity, and think that you can do fine with just reason and science, then I wouldn't push yourself. But I hope that this was at least helpful in explaining how Christianity could possibly be "justified" - it's about as justified as reason or science.

 

[Thunder1]

I don't want to be rude towards you atheist85, I can understand when you read the Bible there is lot of violence in old testament specially and yes God sounds so scary and cruel. I don't want to deny that and it's really ok to question. And you are not only one who thinks that way. There is also other side of the 'story' as always, people - how they behaved towards God... God showed them miracles, helped them, provided and at the end people still did not respect, believe in Him. They turned to idols, worshipped their idols, lived in sin. Finally God "turned away" from them and let them suffer,because they did not listen to Him. He wanted their best but people wanted to turn to their own sinful ways. Then God got angry. That's the old testament mostly not always. God showed mercy there too. Because people could not behave themselves, did not matter what He did. God made a totally new covenant and sacrifice His only Son, Jesus for their sins. Yes and that sounds crazy now too, God must be really crazy to do that. Now he has totally lost it, we might think as many people do and I understand. It really sounds crazy, but hey people where crazy too. God wanted to show His love for people, woke them up somehow to see that because people could not or can't now or ever in the future behave themselves,Jesus had to come between us to save/redeem us, Jesus carried all the sin and He did not deserve it. He was innocent. That's just something. I really don't know what to say. And guess what atheist85, I did not find God, He actually found and chose me. And I'm so humbled by that. He is loving God, when I was still lost, He already knew my story and He accepted me as I was. But He loved me even more, He changed my life for better and I haven't been this happy ever.R. Thunder1

 

[BearingChristaHammer]

(Atheist.85;33535)
I do hope that you are metaphorically speaking about demonic possession and hearing voices, but if you are indeed literal, I'm not really sure how to respond.
Well demonic possession is real my friend. I had a demon chasing me, you think it just wanted to sit down a play a game of chess with me, lol? Just because you nor I have any empirical evidence to support this makes it no less of a reality. The same goes for God. I know what I have seen and experienced. It's a shame to me that my history with most atheist tells me that testimony means squat to them. If they can't fit it empirically into their minds its rejected, as if we we're lying to you. But do you seriously think science has even come close to grasping the abundance of the universe? I don't think it ever will or can. There are some things it will never explain, never harness. Your just exploring the creation of God, how much greater the Creator.(Atheist.85;33535)
I am looking for proof of god, something that is tangibly and physically and without a doubt evident of some higher being. So far I've come up with nothing that isn't natural or explainable by science in some way, and I would venture to guess it will stay that way.
Okay just because science can explain something only points to the truth that a higher being structured it that way. Finding structure in science proves no more or less that there is a God, it just shows structure. Lunar answered this one quite nicely. Science is a faith as much as a belief in God. Science is just a process with conclusions given to the most probable outcomes. In the end everything we know will fade and there will be only the word of God and those in it left standing. I know that if you seek this proof you will not find it. I do see God in everything, in science, math, history, my dreams, everything. Heres a thought and what I meant by approaching this from a different perspective. In science many times we start with the hypothesis and work backwards to prove it (although it is never proved, just accepted as the highest probable outcome). Sure certain evidence, however, intuition as well play a huge roll in factoring in the original hypothesis. But in most cases we do start with a hypothesis. It is birthed into theory when surmounting evidence supports it as the conclusion of the time. It stays till debunked and many are happy to put their faith in it.So obviously where I am going with this is that you start out with the hypothesis you are trying to prove. Think of God as true for awhile and try to mount your evidence that way. Just a thought. Though I will again say that you cannot arrive at the conclusion through wholly empirical means. At some point you will need to make a leap of faith. But if you can the evidence will sky rocket. Your own beliefs are holding you no less tightly then you feel us Christians are being "blind" in our faith. The fact that you might not see this is testimony to that truth. Seeking strictly empirical evidence can be just as blind even though it may seem like the rational thing to do. I do not believe all truth in the universe is empirical.Just look at the studies done on infinity, most the greats went mad seeking what they sought empirically because the implications of that rabbit hole eluded them and shook the very ground of everything they knew mathematically and empirically speaking to be true. At one point the snake turns around and bites itself.Just so you know I love science, mostly the poetical stuff. Richard Dawkins Unweaving the Rainbow was amazing. It actually brought me a lot closer to God. Everything I read in that book I attributed to God, just as the great Einstein did, a man I would posit smarter than you or I. If anyone could have provided empirical evidence for God it may well have been him, but he believed anyways. Just something to think about.

 

[His By Grace]

BCH, I would love to read more of your testimony. I think it's in the real-life experiences that we truly see the Hand of the Lord. You were so transparent in your sharing. It took a lot of guts to tell those things about yourself. The scriptures do tell us that our warfare is spiritual and so many Christians and non-Christians alike fail to acknowledge this. I wonder what they attribute the supernatural occurances to, like the ghost type-things that happen. This should be further evidence that there is much more going on than what we can see with our natural eyes; much more than scientists can prove. We know that satan and demons disguise themselves as other things and people, being called "an angel of light" and "familiar spirits". I know this is totally another topic, but it just adds another dimension to the Christian faith. We believe; therefore we see or believing is seeing. I like that. It's so true. The Lord does reward those who diligently seek Him.Atheist.85, I can tell you that I was raised in a Christian home, so I don't really understand where you are coming from. I will be honest. My dad wasn't really a very good model of a Christian. He was a deacon in our church. But, he seemed to play the church game. He was so nice to everyone at church, but was so grouchy at home. My mom was just the opposite. She was so loving and kind. She always encouraged us, wrote us letters, prayed with us, and I saw her reading her Bible every night. I knew her testimony too. She grew up with alcoholic parents and grandparents. Her mother died when she was 7 because of alcohol. She brought herself to church. By the time she was 19, she was a Sunday School teacher and a youth leader. She is still involved in church to this day and everyone loves her. She is a positive person and loves the Lord with her whole heart. My dad has passed on. He did come around when getting sick from a heart attack and stroke. I sat by his bedside and he told me about how he was raised and his regrets. He wished he had been nicer to people. He said he was proud of me (SO good to finally hear). He made things right with the Lord.I never let his ways turn me against the Lord. I knew Jesus was bigger than that. At 5, I heard a preacher preach on hell, and I knew I didn't want to go there. I went up to be saved. I didn't really begin a relationship with the Lord until a teenager. Then I began reading my Bible daily and looking at the joy and peace I saw in other Christians-the real ones. At age 17, at youth camp, a camp counselor had a profound impact on me. I saw attentiveness in how he was listening to the message. I saw him raise his hands in worship. I saw an illumination on his face. I saw kindness and patience. I got to talk with him one-on-one and he shared key verses about how to know you're saved. That night, the last night of the camp, I went forward and rededicated my life to Christ. I went to my brother, who was sitting with the youth and wept on his shoulder and asked his forgivenss for all of the years I had been ugly to him and not a good sister. I asked my friends to forgive me for not treating them like I should. It created a chain-effect. Now, you tell me if this isn't Holy Spirit directed? I am very shy and would never have done this at this age on my own. It was hard and humiliating. I can site time after time when I have prayed and the Lord has given me chances to witness to people when they actually started the conversation. I can see the change Christ makes in people. That's how I know it is real. Also, all of the other religious guys are dead. Christ's body is no where to be found because He's not dead. He's alive and at the right Hand of the Father praying for you and for me.

 

[EzrahEl21]

What does the word Eloheem mean ? :study:

 

[Thunder1]

Should it be Elohim, just asking, meaning God.

 

[EzrahEl21]

(Thunder1;35566)
Should it be Elohim, just asking, meaning God.
Though you were verse in the scriptures Yes ? :study: