A personal relationship

[H. Richard]

In a discussion with someone on a forum the following reply was made to a post that contained a statement about “a personal relationship with God.” We were discussing rituals.

“”I have to disagree. These 'external things', help us focus on something far more important than a 'personal relationship' (90's terminology, not Biblical).””
*****

First let me make it clear that without Jesus shedding His blood on the cross there would never have been the Gospel of Grace. Nor would it be possible for mankind to have a personal relationship with God. So the blood is not the issue under discussion. This discussion is about going on from salvation to a personal relationship with God in our hearts.

Heb 6:1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
(NKJ)

**Relationship = a connection, being related, connection by blood or marriage: kinship.

**Fellowship = companionship, brotherhood.

Let us consider Biblical relationships with God.

The scriptures say, that in the Garden of Eden, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God.

When Jesus spoke "to" God what did He call Him? Was it God? Was it Lord? Or was it Father?

What kind of relationship is spoken of in these verses?

John 17:11
11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
(NKJ)

John 17:20-26
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
(NKJ)

Jesus was the Son of God. His relationship with His Father was a personal one. His prayer is that we are as close to the Holy Father in a relationship as He was. His desire is that we become one in a personal relationship with both of them.

The scriptures teach that we are children of God and have a Father to child relationship.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
(NKJ)

I Jn 3:1
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
(NKJ)

A fellowship is a relationship.

1 Cor 1:9
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
(NKJ)

I Jn 1:3
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

A personal relationship with God is our calling as children of God. It is a "fellowship" with Him. The scriptures "do not" teach that a personal relationship with a religion is a substitute for a personal relationship with Jesus in the heart.

Let it be seen, that to SAY “a personal relationship with God” is not taught in the scriptures is an extremely false statement.

Copyright September 1, 2005 by Richard Burger

 

[Windmill Charge]

So you are saying that the only way to worship God is to do so without any rituals or habits, everything must be spontanious and lead by the spirit.

 

[Helen]

So you are saying that the only way to worship God is to do so without any rituals or habits, everything must be spontanious and lead by the spirit.

That is what I believe for sure. The rest just gets in the way.

 

[Windmill Charge]

That is what I believe for sure. The rest just gets in the way.

So is the habit of daily bible readings and time of prayer a ritual that should not be performed.
What about the self disapline of resisting temptation should we wait to be lead by the spirit as to whether we should resist this temptation or not?
What about regular attendance at the same church?

A puritan I think John Owen, once wrote:-
"If you want extra ordinary experiences of God.
Enlarge your ordinary devoutions."

The only problem with ritual is when the worshiper sees the ritual as what saves them rather than as a vehicle that points to the saviour.

 

[amadeus]

I see it both ways.

The rituals can get in our way as we move supposedly toward God, but they can also be used as vehicles to carry us to the something better where there is no need of such a vehicle. My morning prayer time to me is vital, but as I use it and allow God to use it to build me it becomes more frequent that I find myself being led by the Holy Ghost during parts of the day not specifically set aside as for me and God alone, if you understand my meaning. It all does come back to this verse and its application to your [my] own walk with God:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

When I was a devout young Catholic [1949 to 1961] I grew closer to God in a way through the rituals that I learned and practiced. What I have seen much more recently is found here:

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:13-16

These verses are speaking specifically to where we are heading. If we read the earlier verses in Eph 4 about ministers, five in particular, it indicates the purpose of those ministers [whoever they are] but the quoted verses also show where all of us should be heading. As we approach these things [away from childhood, into unity of the faith, into knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the fullness of Christ] eventually some things should be shed as we see in these verses:

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor 13:8-10

We [or at least I ], at this moment, still have prophecies, tongues and knowledge, but there will come a time when there is no need. I cannot explain it exactly because I am not there and God hasn't shown me so much, but the scripture indicates it is coming. There is no question about that. The only question is whether or not you and I will be present in the fulfillment. God knows, but you and I can see to our participation if we are following the right lead:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rituals are part of the human experience.

BAPTISM is a ritual.
The Lord's Supper (Communion) is a ritual.
Proposing marriage is a ritual.
Marrying your spouse is a ritual.
Dating is a ritual.
Going grocery shopping is a ritual.
Eating dinner at the same time every night is a ritual.
Going to the gym is a ritual.

Those who claim that rituals are "worthless" or "get in the way" don't really understand that their lives are FILLED with rituals . . .

 

[H. Richard]

Rituals are part of the human experience.

BAPTISM is a ritual.
The Lord's Supper (Communion) is a ritual.
Proposing marriage is a ritual.
Marrying your spouse is a ritual.
Dating is a ritual.
Going grocery shopping is a ritual.
Eating dinner at the same time every night is a ritual.
Going to the gym is a ritual.

Those who claim that rituals are "worthless" or "get in the way" don't really understand that their lives are FILLED with rituals . . .

***

Seems funny to me that we are writing about rituals in religions and then you come up with this junk.

 

[Helen]

Rituals are part of the human experience.

BAPTISM is a ritual.
The Lord's Supper (Communion) is a ritual.
Proposing marriage is a ritual.
Marrying your spouse is a ritual.
Dating is a ritual.
Going grocery shopping is a ritual.
Eating dinner at the same time every night is a ritual.
Going to the gym is a ritual.

Those who claim that rituals are "worthless" or "get in the way" don't really understand that their lives are FILLED with rituals . . .

I can see some of them..I can see grocery shopping as a ritual.
I hate it! Ha! Brushing my teeth etc...
But how is marriage, dating etc a ritual. I thought rituals were a repetitive thing...I only married once!

 

[BreadOfLife]

I can see some of them..I can see grocery shopping as a ritual.
I hate it! Ha! Brushing my teeth etc...
But how is marriage, dating etc a ritual. I thought rituals were a repetitive thing...I only married once!

The wedding ceremony is a ritual. The vows, the exchanging of rings, etc.
A funeral is a ritual - and it only happens once . . .

And, for MOST people, dating is a repetitive thing ;) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Seems funny to me that we are writing about rituals in religions and then you come up with this junk.

Seems even funnier to me that you would refer to Baptism, Communion and Marriage as "junk" . . .

 

[H. Richard]

Seems even funnier to me that you would refer to Baptism, Communion and Marriage as "junk" . . .

***
It is because rituals will not save anyone.

 

[DPMartin]

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


so anything else, in respect to worship, is contrary to what Jesus says in Joh 4:23-24

 

[BreadOfLife]

***
It is because rituals will not save anyone.

NOT according to the Bible . . .

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

1 Pet. 3:19-21
In it (the Ark) he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

2 Pet. 38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Rituals are part of the human experience.

BAPTISM is a ritual.
The Lord's Supper (Communion) is a ritual.
Proposing marriage is a ritual.
Marrying your spouse is a ritual.
Dating is a ritual.
Going grocery shopping is a ritual.
Eating dinner at the same time every night is a ritual.
Going to the gym is a ritual.

Those who claim that rituals are "worthless" or "get in the way" don't really understand that their lives are FILLED with rituals . . .

BreadOfLife, here is what I can't understand. You hold the truth. I've only briefly had a conversation with you on here, but what I gathered from that brief conversation was that the Spirit is there, in your words which often are very clear. But then you go off on these tangents to defend man, rather than God. I know He has been intimate with you: those moments where it is just you and the Spirit and then He speaks, revealing to you a truth hidden within the Word; something you never saw there before. I am sure it fuels your passion to know your Saviour even more which leads to praising Him for all that He has sacrificed for us to be restored to Him. These moments, I am sure you have experienced them...they are communion. Your eat and drink from the table of God. Bread of life, and Spirit. Man cannot replicate those moments through rituals, rituals that only give meaning to His words. They can not replace relationship. You spoke of the ritual of marriage(performed before a crowd), yes, vows (the ritual)spoken may lead to the sealing of the relationship, but the relationship is the intimacy(the part others don't see). Even the ritual of eating at a certain time can become intimate when it takes place with loved ones and friends...like the last supper.

 

[APAK]

BreadOfLife, here is what I can't understand. You hold the truth. I've only briefly had a conversation with you on here, but what I gathered from that brief conversation was that the Spirit is there, in your words which often are very clear. But then you go off on these tangents to defend man, rather than God. I know He has been intimate with you: those moments where it is just you and the Spirit and then He speaks, revealing to you a truth hidden within the Word; something you never saw there before. I am sure it fuels your passion to know your Saviour even more which leads to praising Him for all that He has sacrificed for us to be restored to Him. These moments, I am sure you have experienced them...they are communion. Your eat and drink from the table of God. Bread of life, and Spirit. Man cannot replicate those moments through rituals, rituals that only give meaning to His words. They can not replace relationship. You spoke of the ritual of marriage(performed before a crowd), yes, vows (the ritual)spoken may lead to the sealing of the relationship, but the relationship is the intimacy(the part others don't see). Even the ritual of eating at a certain time can become intimate when it takes place with loved ones and friends...like the last supper.

VictoryinJesus:

Rituals are visible, man-made, ultimately self-centered, mechanical and rote substitutes for the real 'invisible' spiritual processes ordained by God. Of connecting in love with God and other heartfelt activities with others, necessary and fit for a believer's life. God does not acknowledge or accept any substitute where his presence is absent.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

BreadOfLife, here is what I can't understand. You hold the truth. I've only briefly had a conversation with you on here, but what I gathered from that brief conversation was that the Spirit is there, in your words which often are very clear. But then you go off on these tangents to defend man, rather than God. I know He has been intimate with you: those moments where it is just you and the Spirit and then He speaks, revealing to you a truth hidden within the Word; something you never saw there before. I am sure it fuels your passion to know your Saviour even more which leads to praising Him for all that He has sacrificed for us to be restored to Him. These moments, I am sure you have experienced them...they are communion. Your eat and drink from the table of God. Bread of life, and Spirit. Man cannot replicate those moments through rituals, rituals that only give meaning to His words. They can not replace relationship. You spoke of the ritual of marriage(performed before a crowd), yes, vows (the ritual)spoken may lead to the sealing of the relationship, but the relationship is the intimacy(the part others don't see). Even the ritual of eating at a certain time can become intimate when it takes place with loved ones and friends...like the last supper.

Hi VictoryinJesus -
First off - I don't defend man "rather than" God. I defend God's Authority that he transferred to His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Christ's Church is his Body - not some "separate" fleshly entity. He is so radically joined together with Hid Church that that Paul refers to it as the FULLNESS of Him (Eph. 1:22-23) and the pillar and foundation of truth (2 Tim. 2:15). Jesus went so far as to equate His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5). I would never defend ANY man over God.

That being said - there is no more personal relationship with Jesus than consuming His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.
If you see this sacrament as nothing more than a mere "ritual" and nothing else, then I'm afraid you are missing the point.

 

[DPMartin]

NOT according to the Bible . . .

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

1 Pet. 3:19-21
In it (the Ark) he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

2 Pet. 38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

what's that got to do with worship?

 

[BreadOfLife]

VictoryinJesus:

Rituals are visible, man-made, ultimately self-centered, mechanical and rote substitutes for the real 'invisible' spiritual processes ordained by God. Of connecting in love with God and other heartfelt activities with others, necessary and fit for a believer's life. God does not acknowledge or accept any substitute where his presence is absent.

Bless you,

APAK

Ummmmm, Jesus, who is GOD Himself ordained the ritual of the Lord's Supper - the Eucharist (Matt. 26:26-28, Luke 22:19-20).
Why you would say that rituals are strictly "man-made" is beyond me.

A Wedding ceremony is a ritual in which God IS present.
Why you would say that He is NOT is beyond me (Mark 10:9).

 

[BreadOfLife]

what's that got to do with worship?

And what does YOUR comment have to do with what I wrote??

I was responding to H.Richard, who said:
"It is because rituals will not save anyone."

We weren't talking about worship. We were talking about rituals.

 

[mjrhealth]

I think it has something to do with this,

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Religion is all about works, its all about "seeing to be doing", gains nothing.