A polite question for pretribbers

[Timtofly]

YOU really do not know the word of God do you. For if you did know His Word you would not have made such a completely unintelligent statement about what Jesus has been doing.

You made that statement as a fact:

Ronald Nolette said:
"You would have Jesus sitting watching the antichrist rise from the dead, and the false prophet make the image come alive and order all on earth take the mark and sit there twiddiling His thumgbs"

Has Jesus not been waiting since the Cross to come for the Second Coming? Has he been twiddling his thumbs as you put it?, not me.

Don't make unintelligent statements yourself, then. I was just quoting you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That is not what I said. Jesus comes to earth to sit on His throne in judgment of the nations at the 6th Seal. The Trumpets are the call to assembly for all of Israel. Yes judgment happens. There are 2 woes as well at the sounding of the 5th and 6th Trumpet.

So He judges the nations during the trumpets and bowls. this is also when the antichrist goes into teh temple and declares Himself God and the False prophet orders the mark. sorry but that is the order of the end times events. So you have Jesus on earth twiddling His thumbs doing nothing while He allows the antichrist to declare Himself God, issue teh mark, and slaughter christians and Jews! You just cannot wish these facts away.

So I guess you call teh trumpets and bowls the judgment against teh nations as also declared in Matt. 24-25 in a totally different way.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You made that statement as a fact:

Ronald Nolette said:
"You would have Jesus sitting watching the antichrist rise from the dead, and the false prophet make the image come alive and order all on earth take the mark and sit there twiddiling His thumgbs"

Has Jesus not been waiting since the Cross to come for the Second Coming? Has he been twiddling his thumbs as you put it?, not me.

Don't make unintelligent statements yourself, then. I was just quoting you.

YOu introduced twiddling His thumbs. And all we know of what Jesus is doing now is preparing a place for the church in heaven and making intercession for us. Anything else people say He is doing is guessing.

 

[Timtofly]

So He judges the nations during the trumpets and bowls. this is also when the antichrist goes into teh temple and declares Himself God and the False prophet orders the mark. sorry but that is the order of the end times events. So you have Jesus on earth twiddling His thumbs doing nothing while He allows the antichrist to declare Himself God, issue teh mark, and slaughter christians and Jews! You just cannot wish these facts away.

So I guess you call teh trumpets and bowls the judgment against teh nations as also declared in Matt. 24-25 in a totally different way.

Those 42 months are after the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 13 is after Revelation 11. Matthew 25:31 is not the judgment of the nations. It is the judgment of the sheep and goats out of the nations.

Your bowl judgments happen after the 42 months. Satan declares himself God, after the 7th Trumpet sounds. Satan's babylonian empire is the 42 months between the 7th Trumpet sounding and the 7 vials of God's wrath on that empire of Satan. The Trumpets and vials are not the same event.

 

[Timtofly]

YOu introduced twiddling His thumbs. And all we know of what Jesus is doing now is preparing a place for the church in heaven and making intercession for us. Anything else people say He is doing is guessing.

Nope, you did. I replied to your post that states Jesus must be "twiddling". You made it sound like Jesus waiting was a bad thing. Jesus has been waiting since the Cross.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Those 42 months are after the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 13 is after Revelation 11. Matthew 25:31 is not the judgment of the nations. It is the judgment of the sheep and goats out of the nations.

Your bowl judgments happen after the 42 months. Satan declares himself God, after the 7th Trumpet sounds. Satan's babylonian empire is the 42 months between the 7th Trumpet sounding and the 7 vials of God's wrath on that empire of Satan. The Trumpets and vials are not the same event.

I know they are not the same events. I also know Rev. 13 is after Rev. 11. I also know that teh Great tribulation period is the last 42 months.

What I reject is your opinion that the 7 trumpets are Satan's wrath. Especially seeing the angels with the trumpets are handed the trumpets in heaven and descend from heaven.

And it is not Satans' but the Antichrists Empire that rules the entire world. Satan gave all authority to HIs son in Rev. 13. So if by Empire you mean the entire world, I agree as the vials are poured on all teh earth , just like the trumpets are global and the seals are global.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nope, you did. I replied to your post that states Jesus must be "twiddling". You made it sound like Jesus waiting was a bad thing. Jesus has been waiting since the Cross.

If Jesus is king and ruling with all authority on earth and allows the Antichrist to murder Jews and Christians, wreak havoc, issue the mark through the false prophet and doesn't lift a hand to protect His kingdom, you are not speaking of the Jesus in the bible.

 

[Timtofly]

I know they are not the same events. I also know Rev. 13 is after Rev. 11. I also know that teh Great tribulation period is the last 42 months.

What I reject is your opinion that the 7 trumpets are Satan's wrath. Especially seeing the angels with the trumpets are handed the trumpets in heaven and descend from heaven.

And it is not Satans' but the Antichrists Empire that rules the entire world. Satan gave all authority to HIs son in Rev. 13. So if by Empire you mean the entire world, I agree as the vials are poured on all teh earth , just like the trumpets are global and the seals are global.

I never said the Trumpets are Satan's wrath, nor are they (The Trumpets) the last 42 months, so the last 42 months is not the GT.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the GT, and Satan's 42 months start after the 7th Trumpet has sounded. So the GT is the first 6 Trumpets, and the 7 Thunders. The GT is over before Satan even sets up his empire.

Why would Satan have wrath any way?

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Satan was mad, he could not destroy the woman, but certainly does not pour out wrath onto his followers. He persecutes any who follow Jesus Christ, not his own people, though I would not put it past him to do so. Just not written in Revelation.

Of course it is Satan's empire. The deception is that an AC is coming first. That is a deception of Satan, not reality. This empire is not even set up until midweek of the 7th Trumpet sounding. The 7th Trumpet has already been sounding for 3.5 days. Then 42 months interrupt that week, and the week is finished the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses are dead, after the 42 months. We are not told how life goes on during those 42 months. Only that many or perhaps just one human is beheaded. The 42 months are only for those who are beheaded, not for Satan at all.

Why put the emphasis on Satan, when the time is only extended, because God is allowing a few more souls to repent and chop their heads off? This is the final harvest of redeemed humanity. Those beheaded are the gleanings after Satan has been allowed 100% control to mess up life on earth like what happened to Job. Job would be represented by those who do choose to cut off their heads instead of taking the mark and following Satan. Satan was not mad at the world, in Job's day. He just stated that people only trusted God when God was good.

Now God shows Satan in those last 42 months, that some choose God, when God is not even around, and Satan is 100% in control. There will only be 2 literal humans on earth to represent God at that point. The only church on earth will be those without their heads. So no one is going to be raptured after the 42 months alive. Even the 2 witnesses will be dead and resurrected prior to Armageddon. No one will be alive after Armageddon.

The millennium firstfruits are the sheep and wheat taken out during the Trumpets and Thunders. No one has to endure Satan's 42 months. The endurance is the time Jesus and the angels are on the earth in the GT while the final harvest is gathered. The sheep and wheat are waiting like Jesus and the 144k above the earth, until the 42 months are over. Then they come back at Armageddon to live for 1,000 years. No one sneaks in the "back door" into the Millennium without being changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, like the sheep and wheat, who were personally changed by Jesus Christ. These are portrayed in Revelation 14 and 15 waiting until the last of humanity go through the winepress.

 

[Timtofly]

If Jesus is king and ruling with all authority on earth and allows the Antichrist to murder Jews and Christians, wreak havoc, issue the mark through the false prophet and doesn't lift a hand to protect His kingdom, you are not speaking of the Jesus in the bible.

Do you not understand that Satan is only given 42 months if there are some humans who will choose to chop their heads off? There is no AC running around on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. God does not protect His kingdom, because they all left during those 42 months.

Do you not understand how God removes his hand per Job?

"Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord."

Those sheep and wheat harvested in the final harvest will not be on earth during those 42 months. God does not remove His protection this time. He removes the redeemed, themselves. The kingdom on earth is put on hold for 42 months. God does give Satan 100% control. But not to persecute the sheep and wheat. It is to persecute those who will be beheaded. But even that persecution stops after the head is severed. You cannot persecute a soul that has left the body. You cannot persecute a dead body.

Satan is not the one chopping heads off. Why would he give those who reject him an easy way out? It is not suicide either. People are making a serious decision between life and death. Death is keeping one's head. Life is removing one's head. That is why this is the time of AoD. Life is so messed up, that one has to literal die to be redeemed.

John does not say who removes these heads. Why just assume Satan and company do it? There are many ways to die, but removing one's head is pretty specific. Only those without a head are resurrected in Revelation 20:4.

What if you took the mark, but later chopped your head off, does that count, or is the mark final, and removing your head after is just pointless?

The point you seem to reject is that once the 7th Seal is opened, names will be removed, not that judgment can or cannot happen. They go hand in hand though. It is the finality of God's decision, not even man's. Jesus determines the sheep, they remain in the Lamb's book of life. Jesus determines the goats, they are removed from the Lamb's book of life. So as with the wheat and the tares. People are literally being removed from the earth, not just ear marked to live once they have been removed from the Lamb's book of life. At the declaration of the harvest being over, the 7th Trumpet, many humans are still alive and unaccounted for. This is when Daniel 9:27 is reality. The Atonement Covenant is confirmed with those left. If those left are not covered, because they will never choose life, then that is the end. No 42 months. If the Atonement Covenant is confirmed, and some are known by God to choose life, which is a future chopping off of their head, then time is extended for 42 months, and the AoD allowed, Satan given 100% control.

The finality is that God gives the mark and removes one from the Lamb's book of life because that is their personal choice, they made in their mind, and God made their choice a reality. There is no take back of redemption one never accepted. The removal of one's head is the personal choice to remain in the Lamb's book of life, instead of taking the mark. The persecution comes from not being able to participate in the economy of every day life until one does have the mark. But even those with the mark will keep on killing each other, that is what happens now, even under God’s grace and mercy. Even more so in utter abomination and wickedness.

Yes the daily sacrifice, the plan of salvation, and grace is removed from the earth. People will not be saved by grace through faith. They will be later redeemed by faith, if one accepts that removing their head and given up this life is worth it, rather than taking the mark and living in Satan's deception, whatever Satan will offer people after God took it all away. Remember that at the 6th Seal all mankind's works were burned up? 2 Peter 3. Literally all that is left are horses and stones. If Satan restores normality in the Trumpets and Thunders, he will already be out and about peddling his goods.

Why does any one think life will be normal after the 6th Seal?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I never said the Trumpets are Satan's wrath, nor are they (The Trumpets) the last 42 months, so the last 42 months is not the GT.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the GT, and Satan's 42 months start after the 7th Trumpet has sounded. So the GT is the first 6 Trumpets, and the 7 Thunders. The GT is over before Satan even sets up his empire.

Why would Satan have wrath any way?

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Satan was mad, he could not destroy the woman, but certainly does not pour out wrath onto his followers. He persecutes any who follow Jesus Christ, not his own people, though I would not put it past him to do so. Just not written in Revelation.

Of course it is Satan's empire. The deception is that an AC is coming first. That is a deception of Satan, not reality. This empire is not even set up until midweek of the 7th Trumpet sounding. The 7th Trumpet has already been sounding for 3.5 days. Then 42 months interrupt that week, and the week is finished the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses are dead, after the 42 months. We are not told how life goes on during those 42 months. Only that many or perhaps just one human is beheaded. The 42 months are only for those who are beheaded, not for Satan at all.

Why put the emphasis on Satan, when the time is only extended, because God is allowing a few more souls to repent and chop their heads off? This is the final harvest of redeemed humanity. Those beheaded are the gleanings after Satan has been allowed 100% control to mess up life on earth like what happened to Job. Job would be represented by those who do choose to cut off their heads instead of taking the mark and following Satan. Satan was not mad at the world, in Job's day. He just stated that people only trusted God when God was good.

Now God shows Satan in those last 42 months, that some choose God, when God is not even around, and Satan is 100% in control. There will only be 2 literal humans on earth to represent God at that point. The only church on earth will be those without their heads. So no one is going to be raptured after the 42 months alive. Even the 2 witnesses will be dead and resurrected prior to Armageddon. No one will be alive after Armageddon.

The millennium firstfruits are the sheep and wheat taken out during the Trumpets and Thunders. No one has to endure Satan's 42 months. The endurance is the time Jesus and the angels are on the earth in the GT while the final harvest is gathered. The sheep and wheat are waiting like Jesus and the 144k above the earth, until the 42 months are over. Then they come back at Armageddon to live for 1,000 years. No one sneaks in the "back door" into the Millennium without being changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, like the sheep and wheat, who were personally changed by Jesus Christ. These are portrayed in Revelation 14 and 15 waiting until the last of humanity go through the winepress.

So what are the vial judgments poured out by God through the angels? If the trumpets are the last 42 months.

And you have the timeline all wrong. Teh great tribulation begins when the Antichrist enters the rebuilt temple and declares HImself God and that is not the in the first half of the 70th week of Daniel.

And the antichrist is most definitely on teh earth during teh seals and trumpets. Unless you think He just instantaneously gains world rule in contradictionto what Scripture says.

He is the rider of the white horse and goes out conquering 3 of the ten kings as per Daniel. this takes time. He gains ever growing power and becomes the world dictator after he rises form the dead and the false prophet makes the image come alive and order all to take the mark.

Israel flees at the midpoint of the 70th week as revelation and Jesus both said!

It is this that begins the GT and that is the midpoint of the 70th week or the last 42 months.

 

[Timtofly]

So what are the vial judgments poured out by God through the angels? If the trumpets are the last 42 months.

And you have the timeline all wrong. Teh great tribulation begins when the Antichrist enters the rebuilt temple and declares HImself God and that is not the in the first half of the 70th week of Daniel.

And the antichrist is most definitely on teh earth during teh seals and trumpets. Unless you think He just instantaneously gains world rule in contradictionto what Scripture says.

He is the rider of the white horse and goes out conquering 3 of the ten kings as per Daniel. this takes time. He gains ever growing power and becomes the world dictator after he rises form the dead and the false prophet makes the image come alive and order all to take the mark.

Israel flees at the midpoint of the 70th week as revelation and Jesus both said!

It is this that begins the GT and that is the midpoint of the 70th week or the last 42 months.

The Trumpets are not the last 42 months.

No Scripture claims an Antichrist enters the temple. That is your imagination.

The white horse already happened. It was not a literal horse, nor a literal person. The four horses are symbolism. Death and sheol are locations, not entities riding around on literal horses.

The 7th Trumpet is a week long event, a set of 7 days, not a set of 7 years. The last 42 months interrupts this set of 7 days, not a set of 7 years. Satan's time is not the last half of any period of time. It may not even happen.

Well Israel did flee at the midpoint of the 70th week. The Cross was the midpoint. The last half of the 70th week is Jesus as King on the earth, after the Second Coming. The fulness of the Gentiles interrupted the 70th week. That has been the last 1993 years. Jerusalem has been trampled under foot for 1993 years.