A polite question for pretribbers

[stunnedbygrace]

Revelation 20:12 KJV
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Will any of their names be found in the Book of Life?

Much love!

I think so. The ones who gave a cup of water or accepted a prophet.

 

[marks]

I think so. The ones who gave a cup of water or accepted a prophet.

Something I've never seen in Scripture is, what exactly happens concerning those born to the nations in the millennium, and those who enter the kingdom having been judged righteous in the Sheep/Goats judgment.

I think that those who give the cold water are those judged righteous in that judgment.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think that those who give the cold water are those judged righteous in that judgment.

Yes. I think everyone would agree. It even says they are righteous. It’s just that it reads as if they don’t know Him, but followed the law written on their hearts.
It reads to me like: huh…? When did we ever see you and do that for You?
Versus: huh…? When did we ever see You and NOT do that for You?

 

[Tommy Cool]

Oh no, not at all should you apologize, I quite understood and recalled the relevant verses being spoken of.

It was in your second part my mind had some problems.
This is the passage:
2 Now, dear brothers and sisters,[a] let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed—the one who brings destruction.[c]4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.

5 Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. 7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. 8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.

9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.

What I pick up from it is that someone had claimed the gathering together/first resurrection had occurred already and the current time was the beginning of that day of the Lord, and it shook some among them because they were still here, not gathered. I can only guess at what the person had said but it had to at least be pretty convincing. I’ve thought it could possibly have involved how they saw many of their dead walking around during the forty days being the first resurrection, since it’s all I can find thus far.

So Paul’s response, to my mind, is to say, remember, I told you before that gathering there would come two specific things that we would see before that day begins to occur - 1, the falling away and, 2, the man of lawlessness.

But if the gathering together/first resurrection comes before the appearing of the man of lawlessness, I can’t fathom why he gave that to settle and remind them.

To my mind, that, along with those who didn’t receive the mark being in and a part of the first resurrection in rev 20, have a lot of strength for the view that says the gathering has to occur at least after that man appears, whether days, weeks, months or whenever.

Ive even mused over whether “satan will throw some of you into prison for 10 days” might be far prophetic.

For several reasons I seriously question on the validity of Mat 27:52 &3.
I have no textual proof ….as there are no manuscripts of Matthew in Greek, Latin, or Aramaic that omit these verses. So if these verses are an addition or have been altered it would have been no later than the first part of the second century…..which has been known to happen, and interestingly enough... in Matthew.

But there are people who come up with various scenarios…..and I think I know why that person supposes such a scenario. My guess is that they look at the prophecy that Jesus spoke of and how He said Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The problem with that is …Typically a generation is 20-30 years. Jesus was born 3 B.C. so maybe He spoke that around 29 A.D.

So let’s say, that generation ended 60 A.D. That would mean that the revelation Jesus was giving to Paul to write the books of Ephesians Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, Timothy, Titis, Hebrews …would all have been outdated before they hit the press (Paul even wrote them). Not to mention 2Peter, Jude. Gospel of John… and all the epistles of John which all were given by revelation after 60 A.D. My opinion of both God and Jesus could never sink so low as to presume or even entertain that kind of nonsense.
Because in effect…that would mean…… before believers even had a grasp of the entire mystery and of the grace administration…. The grace administration would have terminated.

There is a simple answer to the prophecies that Jesus spoke and the things He said…..people just don’t buy it…. even thought it’s written in the Word in several areas. People don’t buy it, because it steps on their hewed-out doctrine of Jesus Christ. ….And it’s not that He made a mistake or even lied….what He spoke was truth….at the time.... which actually steps on my doctrine …..because I always state that truth never changes….but in this one case ….it did.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Something I've never seen in Scripture is, what exactly happens concerning those born to the nations in the millennium, and those who enter the kingdom having been judged righteous in the Sheep/Goats judgment.

I think I have seen from scripture that the holy rule over the righteous there during that thousand years and that there are a few who receive a punishment of no rain sometimes. And, oh so sadly, it reads that some will gather with satan when he is released again. But that’s the only passage I can think of at present. I guess I have in mind that the righteous among the nations are taken into holiness after the thousand years but…there are many pieces and…I don’t know about that.

 

[marks]

Yes. I think everyone would agree. It even says they are righteous. It’s just that it reads as if they don’t know Him, but followed the law written on their hearts.
It reads to me like: huh…? When did we ever see you and do that for You?
Versus: huh…? When did we ever see You and NOT do that for You?

My thought there is that after the church is removed, 144,000 Israelites are sealed and go town by town through Israel. I think the 2 witnesses will begin to prophesy. I think the message will be, don't be a part of babylon, don't join the beast, Israel is God's chosen. Meanwhile the beast will be intent on destroying Israel, and those who help Israel, so those who help Israel will do so upon pain of death. To help God's chosen people.

Maybe the revelation of the meaning of Matthew 10, Jesus' instructions, like you alluded to. Maybe the internal law, maybe heeding the words of the prophets.

The righteous question their good works, the wicked deny the bad works.

Much love!

PS . . . thinking about how to lay out the answer you asked for.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Hi Tommy Cool,

What you are posting is not the rapture of the Church. It is the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE the Day of the Lord AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

My last post may answer your question #44 maybe... maybe not..... but I have another one I will tag you on that should.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The righteous question their good works, the wicked deny the bad works.

I don’t know…I know when I have helped a brother and if I don’t know it’s a brother I’ve helped, I soon find out, so, I think there’s more to it than the judgement the churches teach about that second resurrection. Which is why we aren’t to judge and condemn those outside as we could be harming ourself to judge that before it’s time. But our doctrines seem to cause us to do it. Any doctrine that makes men harm themselves is one I question as, at the very least, incomplete.

 

[marks]

I guess I have in mind that the righteous among the nations are taken into holiness after the thousand years.

And likewise. But without any particular passage to say this.

Regarding Israel,

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

It seems that Israel continues in her generations, each having the Spirit.

I think I have seen from scripture that the holy rule over the righteous there during that thousand years and that there are a few who receive a punishment of no rain sometimes. And, oh so sadly, it reads that some will gather with satan when he is released again.

There is the civic rule described, Jesus the King of Kings, ruling from Jerusalem. David king of Israel, the Apostles judges of tribes. The nations to come worship at Jerusalem, Israel a kingdom of priests.

Jesus said that those who overcome as He did will share His throne. What that looks like exactly, I don't know, maybe like indicated in the parables, rulers of cities, like that. Maybe something very different.

And I always think of this verse, which is more where my eye is at the moment,

Daniel 12:3 KJV
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

Oh...are you sure…? He seemed to be making a case of some sort for how the gathering together is not the first resurrection but a different thing. But maybe I got that wrong…I did sort of fall apart in mind at the Greek stuff…

His quote showed the man of sin being revealed before the gathering from heaven and earth, which is true. But it is not true that the man of sin will be revealed before the rapture of the Church.

 

[marks]

I’d be interested in hearing that laid out.

What I see is,

First resurrection of the righteous,

Jesus, firstfruits
Rapture, those in Christ, living and dead
144,000, translated mid-week
2 Witnesses, mid week
Resurrection of the OT faithful, at the beginning of the 1000 years
Resurrection of those who die in the tribulation, at the beginning of the 1000 years

Second resurrection of the dead, all those not raised, who remain dead, to stand before Jesus to be judged.

Two resurrections, one begins with Jesus, and ends after all righteous are raised. Then the wicked stand, dead, before God to be judged.

Another thing I don't have specific Scripture about is concerning those who live during the 1000 years. My speculation is that those who sin and are judged will stand before the great white throne in that judgment. Those who do not, I think they do not die, and I'm imagining that at some point in life they are transformed.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What I see is,

First resurrection of the righteous,

Jesus, firstfruits
Rapture, those in Christ, living and dead
144,000, translated mid-week
2 Witnesses, mid week
Resurrection of the OT faithful, at the beginning of the 1000 years
Resurrection of those who die in the tribulation, at the beginning of the 1000 years

Second resurrection of the dead, all those not raised, who remain dead, to stand before Jesus to be judged.

Two resurrections, one begins with Jesus, and ends after all righteous are raised. Then the wicked stand, dead, before God to be judged.

Another thing I don't have specific Scripture about is concerning those who live during the 1000 years. My speculation is that those who sin and are judged will stand before the great white throne in that judgment. Those who do not, I think they do not die, and I'm imagining that at some point in life they are transformed.

Much love!

Maybe. You have more than two resurrections but as you’ve said you’re not bothered by that currently.

 

[marks]

Maybe. You have more than two resurrections but as you’ve said you’re not bothered by that currently.

Two resurrections, not number of events, but type of resurrection. One to life, one to death. All who are raised in righteousness unto life, these are the first resurrection. Those who are raised, but are the dead, to condemnation, these are the second resurrection.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Two resurrections, not number of events, but type of resurrection. One to life, one to death. All who are raised in righteousness unto life, these are the first resurrection. Those who are raised, but are the dead, to condemnation, these are the second resurrection.

Much love!

And where are those who say, when did we ever see you…?
im trying real hard to not impress my own inklings onto you in places but it’s kind of hard to do, isn’t it?

 

[marks]

And where are those who say, when did we ever see you…?

These are from the gentile nations gathered to be judged when Jesus returns and takes His throne. The righteous will enter the kingdom, the wicked will be sent away to their destiny.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But it is not true that the man of sin will be revealed before the rapture of the Church.

I’m thinking he does appear first too, as I layed out in a previous post. Maybe I just haven’t understood the man.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

These are from the gentile nations gathered to be judged when Jesus returns and takes His throne. The righteous will enter the kingdom, the wicked will be sent away to their destiny.

Much love!

So…at the end of the tribulation, when Jesus takes His throne in the thousand year reign, all those still alive after all that disaster, uh…no I can’t put it together what you think. This is quite difficult, huh…?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You know…even when I thought I saw a pretrib resurrection, I had it in my head that it was for the holy and that those righteous who required more sifting to come out pure would not go then…so whenever I thought about it I said to myself, if it was today, I would need more sifting.

 

[marks]

This is quite difficult, huh…?

Just take each passage as meaning exactly what the language is expressing. But it's not a simple topic, and your conclusions will be dramatically affected by your ideas of ecclesiology and dispensations. So long as you treat all the words as serious, and don't ignore any, and realize that all will be true as you correctly understand, that's the path.

Much love!

 

[Marilyn C]

I see this as too rigid and as approaching some danger. I see that some may be gleaned in the second resurrection. Those who gave a cup/helped His body. Those who accepted a prophet.
I think it’s important to not judge those outside the body because there is enough in many places to suggest that what we’ve been taught is incomplete and leads us to the danger of doing the thing we were warned not to do.
But I’ve read enough of your posts to think you probably will vociferously disagree. And that’s okay. You can’t see what you don’t see.

Hi stunnedby grace,

I think you are right about not judging those outside the Body of Christ for God`s grace doesn`t just extend to us but to Israel and the nations when we are gone.

Now as to those who gave a cup to Christ`s brethren, (the Jews in that context as the Body of Christ was not revealed then). Those are the `sheep` nations and they will not die, (just then) thus not resurrected then, but go into the millennium.

Glad we can agree on some things. Marilyn.