A polite question for pretribbers

[stunnedbygrace]

The meaning isn't different, it's just a different way to say the same thing which is common in all languages.

"the dead in Christ rise first" which is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.


1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


"Rise first" is literally the same as "first resurrection" found here:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

This made a bit more sense to me. If all the dead rise who are going to rise at that time, it IS a resurrection and it makes no sense to me to dice it a different way. And to dice it a different way makes you still have to fit in two resurrections, which, off the top of my head, I guess one could maybe attempt…as long as you still follow the lines of harvesting and how it is done - smaller first fruits, the greater harvest, the gleaning before you mow it all down.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Oh my brain, my brain! I can’t. Can you put that in English for me?

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ & Our gathering together unto Him
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


The departure
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come “a falling away first” = (the departure) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.



The day of redemption
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


The day of Jesus Christ
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



Our Hope
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?................ 2Co 1:7, 1Ti 1:1, 2Th 2:16, Tit 2:13,

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ & Our gathering together unto Him
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


The departure
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come “a falling away first” = (the departure) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.



The day of redemption
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


The day of Jesus Christ
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



Our Hope
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?................ 2Co 1:7, 1Ti 1:1, 2Th 2:16, Tit 2:13,

Okay. Thanks. I do see a problem of sorts, to my mind, but I see how you have arrived at your understanding and that was what I was looking for.

 

[Truth7t7]

First and Second Resurrections are designating 2 resurrections of course, but only two, so if these are two instances of resurrection, we already run into problems because Jesus rose, the two witnesses will arise, various others, and they could be debated, but Jesus Himself, He is the firstfruits, so it's not just a certain resurrection day, it includes Him.

The second resurrection is substantially different from the first, in that John wrote, "I saw the dead . . ." The first resurrection, these lived and reigned with Christ, they are alive, the second are still dead.

I think these aren't simply consecutive resurrections, but are two kinds of resurrection, the Righteous unto life, and the unrighteous unto judgment and eternal death.

So then whether some be raised between Jesus and these martyrs, I don't see that being any issue. It seems to me that the 2 witnesses will have been raised. It may be that those who arose when Jesus died were also transformed into glory. Whether there be the dead and living in Christ to be raised and transformed would include those in their time, same as the OT saints, raised as will be Daniel "on the last day", the 1335th day.

As a pre-tribber, I'm a little different from the classic Calvary Chapel view, but this would be mainstream thinking on this question. And I happen to think it's valid myself, so I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have for me.

Much love!

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Okay. Thanks. I do see a problem of sorts, to my mind, but I see how you have arrived at your understanding and that was what I was looking for.

Sorry .... I should have posted the verses last night. But if you see a problem ....please present it.

 

[Truth7t7]

Since I am a pre-tribber here is my explanation. "Come out of" can either mean "escaped out of" or "been subjected to". And in this case it is "escaped out of". Since the Great Tribulation (as seen in the Greek it is "the tribulation, the great") is a period of divine judgments on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked, it does not apply to the Church. Lot and his family are a good example, since Lot is actually called "righteous". So that huge multitude shown in Revelation 7 is the Church. Furthermore, there is nothing in Scripture which says that the whole Church is beheaded by the Antichrist.

Now regarding the Tribulation saints, they were beheaded during the Tribulation (not the Great Tribulation which comes 3 1/2 years after). Those are relatively few saints (probably mostly converted Jews) who refused to take the mark of the Beast. While their resurrection is a part of "the First Resurrection" it is the last part or "gleanings" of the First Resurrection (reserved for the saints). The First Resurrection is represented by a Hebrew harvest with (a) Christ as the first fruits, (b) the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture as the main harvest, and (c) the Tribulation saints as the gleanings.

There is a future "Great Tribulation" of 3.5 years

The 1260 days of the (Two Witnesses) Revelation 11:3 and the 42 months of (The Beast) Revelation 13:5 are "Parallel" time frames of 3.5 years not chronological as dispensationalism teaches in 7 years

Below in Revelation 11:7-18 we see (The Beast) is present on earth to kill the (Two Witnesses) they lay dead for 3.5 days, "The Same Hour" they are called to heaven the 2nd woe takes place and the 3rd woe comes "Quickly" in the 7th Trump (The End) verse 18 below shows the "Final Judgement"

Revelation 11:7-18KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sorry .... I should have posted the verses last night. But if you see a problem ....please present it.

Oh no, not at all should you apologize, I quite understood and recalled the relevant verses being spoken of.

It was in your second part my mind had some problems.
This is the passage:
2 Now, dear brothers and sisters,[a] let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed—the one who brings destruction.[c]4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.

5 Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. 7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. 8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.

9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.

What I pick up from it is that someone had claimed the gathering together/first resurrection had occurred already and the current time was the beginning of that day of the Lord, and it shook some among them because they were still here, not gathered. I can only guess at what the person had said but it had to at least be pretty convincing. I’ve thought it could possibly have involved how they saw many of their dead walking around during the forty days being the first resurrection, since it’s all I can find thus far.

So Paul’s response, to my mind, is to say, remember, I told you before that gathering there would come two specific things that we would see before that day begins to occur - 1, the falling away and, 2, the man of lawlessness.

But if the gathering together/first resurrection comes before the appearing of the man of lawlessness, I can’t fathom why he gave that to settle and remind them.

To my mind, that, along with those who didn’t receive the mark being in and a part of the first resurrection in rev 20, have a lot of strength for the view that says the gathering has to occur at least after that man appears, whether days, weeks, months or whenever.

Ive even mused over whether “satan will throw some of you into prison for 10 days” might be far prophetic.

 

[Davy]

First and Second Resurrections are designating 2 resurrections of course, but only two, so if these are two instances of resurrection, we already run into problems because Jesus rose, the two witnesses will arise, various others, and they could be debated, but Jesus Himself, He is the firstfruits, so it's not just a certain resurrection day, it includes Him.

The second resurrection is substantially different from the first, in that John wrote, "I saw the dead . . ." The first resurrection, these lived and reigned with Christ, they are alive, the second are still dead.

I think these aren't simply consecutive resurrections, but are two kinds of resurrection, the Righteous unto life, and the unrighteous unto judgment and eternal death.

So then whether some be raised between Jesus and these martyrs, I don't see that being any issue. It seems to me that the 2 witnesses will have been raised. It may be that those who arose when Jesus died were also transformed into glory. Whether there be the dead and living in Christ to be raised and transformed would include those in their time, same as the OT saints, raised as will be Daniel "on the last day", the 1335th day.

As a pre-tribber, I'm a little different from the classic Calvary Chapel view, but this would be mainstream thinking on this question. And I happen to think it's valid myself, so I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have for me.

Much love!

Sorry, I have to butt in. The 'implied' second resurrection is ANOTHER ONE UNTO LIFE in Christ Jesus.

The "first resurrection" is for Christ's faithful elect Church from both OT and NT, and particularly those not deceived at the end and did not fall away to the coming pseudo-Christ Jesus warned about. In John 5:28-29 Lord Jesus showed ALL... in the graves will resurrect on the day of His future coming. Some will go into the "resurrection of life" (the 1st resurrection), and the rest will go into the "resurrection of damnation". Then the same kind of division will happen with those that are still alive when He comes and are 'changed' to the resurrection body type.

Then after... the thousand years, the books are opened, including the Book of Life again (see Revelation 20:12).

WHY... is that Book of Life opened again and names looked for in it after... that thousand years? I mean, are only those of the "first resurrection" the ONLY ONES saved in Christ Jesus? The answer to that is NO.

Everyone will be in a resurrection type body (a "spiritual body" Paul taught) when Jesus returns, and the dead are raised, and those alive are 'changed'. I mean, what does one think Paul meant one will be 'changed' to on that "last trump"? Use common sense, think for yourself. It's not that difficult.

The difference between the 1st resurrection and the unsaved during the thousand years will be that the unsaved will still have souls that are in a liable to die condition, being without Jesus Christ.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be loosed one final time to tempt those unsaved nations. And THEN... after that, the GWT Judgment, with the books opened to see if any names (of those nations) are found. And IF... there are, just what KIND of condition do they go to?

Thus the 2nd implied resurrection only happens AFTER the thousand years, and is ANOTHER RESURRECTION LIKE THE 1ST ONE, UNTO CHRIST JESUS!

 

[marks]

Of course, I also see one might say the various others you mention shouldn’t be included because returned from the dead and risen with a new body seem slightly different things.

Yes, I'm only meaning to include those who are raised in their transformed state, not those raised to go on to live out a natural life on earth. The widow's son, no, those who raised when Jesus died, maybe, I don't know. Tradition says they went to to heaven with Jesus, but I don't know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Use common sense, think for yourself. It's not that difficult.

OK.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

Okay. Thanks. I do see a problem of sorts, to my mind, but I see how you have arrived at your understanding and that was what I was looking for.

He is not pre trib

 

[Charlie24]

I’m only interested in the answer a pretribber would give me. Those are the only answers I will be listening to or reading. (That doesn’t mean you can’t post another boxing match, just that I won’t read it. Lol) I’ve tried to ask the question in a thread or two but I guess it’s just gotten lost in the brouhaha.

So my question, what I want to hear you lay out for me, is how you fit into your eschatological framework, one particular passage. I’m looking for something I may not have considered in my brain regarding it. I won’t be arguing with you, I just really want to hear what you have to say about it.

Okay, so it says in Revelation that those who come out of the tribulation who did not receive the mark of the beast will be part of the first resurrection. How do you fit that verse into your framework? I’ll bold the parts that I can’t fit into pretrib in my brain.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Thank you, by the way, for giving me any thoughts about it I may not have seen.

The first resurrection are all who are saved before the Second Coming takes place. The "rest of the dead" are all the lost from the beginning of time.

We believe the Rapture/resurrection will take place before the 7 year Tribulation begins. At this time all the saved from the beginning of time will rise from the graves along with those who are alive and in Christ. At some point after this, the anti-christ will be revealed and the 7 years will begin.

Those in the verses you quoted are a part of the first resurrection who will go through the Tribulation. They include untold millions who will refuse to obey the anti-christ, and most will die during the 7 years. No doubt many of these will be those who thought they were saved and were not! They will reign for 1000 years with Christ along with the Raptured some 7 years before. This is a phase of the first resurrection.

All of Israel will be saved at the Second Coming. They will also reign with Christ, but are separate from the Church during this 1000 year period. This 1000 years for Israel will be for them to fulfill the original calling of God to introduce Christ to the world. As the generations are born into the world during this time, they will learn from the Jews who Christ is, what He has done for mankind, and will be taught that He is the Saviour of the world. Israel will be the premiere nation of the world, and will be honored as such by the entire world. The way God originally planned it.

After the 1000 years, Israel will have fulfilled the calling of God. There appears a new heaven and a new earth, all traces of sin are eliminated The Perfect Age begins.

I would say this is the most highly debated subject on any Christian Forum. In my opinion it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong, what matters is being ready for Christ at anytime, to make your salvation sure here and now.

 

[The Light]

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ & Our gathering together unto Him
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


The departure
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come “a falling away first” = (the departure) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.



The day of redemption
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


The day of Jesus Christ
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



Our Hope
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?................ 2Co 1:7, 1Ti 1:1, 2Th 2:16, Tit 2:13,

Hi Tommy Cool,

What you are posting is not the rapture of the Church. It is the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE the Day of the Lord AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He is not pre trib

Oh...are you sure…? He seemed to be making a case of some sort for how the gathering together is not the first resurrection but a different thing. But maybe I got that wrong…I did sort of fall apart in mind at the Greek stuff…

 

[Truth7t7]

Then after... the thousand years, the books are opened, including the Book of Life again (see Revelation 20:12).

Your claim is "False"

Daniel clearly states the book of life is opened near the time of (The Great Tribulation) not 1,000 years after it as you believe and teach, at this time the resurrection of all takes place

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

WHY... is that Book of Life opened again and names looked for in it after... that thousand years? I mean, are only those of the "first resurrection" the ONLY ONES saved in Christ Jesus? The answer to that is NO.

Oh…! That’s very good I think. I’ve never heard that brought up. It helps me with those who gave a cup of water! I think it does say “books, plural. Have to go look at that.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, I'm only meaning to include those who are raised in their transformed state, not those raised to go on to live out a natural life on earth. The widow's son, no, those who raised when Jesus died, maybe, I don't know. Tradition says they went to to heaven with Jesus, but I don't know.

Much love!

So we are left with Jesus then, from among what you listed in your first post. And upon further reflection, it is not a problem to me as you stated in your first post that to think there are ONLY two resurrections creates a problem because Jesus was the first resurrection of the dead. It’s not a problem to my mind because…His rising has to happen FOR there to even be 2 resurrections.
But what doesn’t trouble my mind may trouble someone else’s in the figuring/wondering.
What I mean is, I still can see that as first fruits with harvest and gleaning still left as the two resurrections.

 

[marks]

So we are left with Jesus then, from among what you listed in your first post. And upon further reflection, it is not a problem to me as you stated in your first post that to think there are ONLY two resurrections creates a problem because Jesus was the first resurrection of the dead. It’s not a problem to my mind because…His rising has to happen FOR there to even be 2 resurrections.
But what doesn’t trouble my mind may trouble someone else’s in the figuring/wondering.
What I mean is, I still can see that as first fruits with harvest and gleaning still left as the two resurrections.

Not that Jesus was the first resurrection, rather, He is the firstfruits of the first resurrection.

Firstfruits, harvest, gleanings, I can see that all within the first ressurection.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Revelation 20:12 KJV
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Will any of their names be found in the Book of Life?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not that Jesus was the first resurrection, rather, He is the firstfruits of the first resurrection.

Firstfruits, harvest, gleanings, I can see that all within the first ressurection.

Much love!

I’d be interested in hearing that laid out.