Runningman
Active Member
Nothing clearly says that. All that seems to say such have been proven false by context. Try it.
A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You know you are not supposed to talk about this, right?
The NRSV is the only translation approved by RCC, EOC and Protestants.
16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.
In him and thought him. I know you want to pretend prepositions "in" and "through" are the same as a verb but it is not. Also, did you watch the vid expanding on the difference between Creation and the new creation through Christ? Doubtful.
Two that quickly come to mind are in John 8, "before Abraham was, I am", which is to say, Before Abraham did exist, I do exist". So Jesus was asserting an eternal existance, that is, He exists in the present before Abraham did exist in the past. Only an eternal being can say that.
The other being in Philppians 2, "He took on the form of a servant", ergo, He was something before doing that, what? He became obedient. Before that, what? Disobedient? Or Sovereign?
One more . . . Zechariah 14, YHWH will stand His feet on the Mt. of Olives. We know God is a Spirit, however, we also know Jesus is YHWH.
Much love!
What does Jeremiah tell us about who is the "God of all flesh"? And when Jesus became incarnate, He took on flesh, and He took on all that went with it. Why did Jesus worship the Father if Jesus is God? For the same reason Jesus kept all the rest of the Law. He came to fulfill all righteousness. Do you suppose that Jesus would have fulfilled all righteous on our behalf if He had left undone what may be the most significant part? To worship God?
Of course Jesus worshiped God, and that doesn't mean He was not God Himself. Just like Jesus was baptized by John, a baptism of the repentance of sin. That didn't mean Jesus was a sinner either.
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Let's try again.
Jesus asserted that He exists in the present (I am) before Abraham existed in the past (before Abraham was).
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Again, before does not mean eternal. Wording it in a more complicated way changes nothing.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
I never called your bibles satanic. I said by satans will, through wicked men they removed Gods name against his will. How do you think Jesus feels about that fact Jack?
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Even in your rendition the words used are different-God ends in g, satan ends in v or u.=god-- the word got the same in your wording.
A denial of fact won't help you.
There is however One Name of which there is no question, in fact, one name given under heaven by which men must be saved, that is the Name Jesus, which is from the transliteration of the Greek Ἰησοῦς. This is the Name we have in Scripture.
Much love!
These endings don't mean what you think. What you call "g" is actually the Greek "sigma", like our "s". What you call "v" or "u", this is the Greek "nu", like our "n".
These ending show the grammatical form. Like saying, "ran", compare to "run", both describe the exact same thing, only happening at different times. It is not correct to claim that "run" means something different than "ran" aside from the time. In the same way, well, you will do much better to learn this yourself. I don't expect you will receive this from me yet it remains true.
Much love!
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Lords prayer-Jesus shows the #1 issue involved for all= his Fathers name. The name he promised to keep on making known( John 17:26)=YHVH(Jehovah)
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Both words for God or god in the same paragraph are different. The only difference = God and god.
The entire post seems like a word salad. But I’ll try to decipher what you wrote:
This one is new to me.
At least you’re not saying (as most do): “Jesus said ‘I Am’, so Jesus is saying ‘I’m God!’”
You’re right. It is about existence. He was saying He was living before Abraham. But saying that, doesn’t make Jesus eternal; it just made him older than Abraham, over 1800 years old (to the Jews, at the time he said it). But insisting on a present tense, with the accompanying word salad, doesn’t take into account the verb’s (eimi’s) syntactical range….
The action we find in John 8:58 starts “before Abraham was born” and is still in progress. In such situations εἰμί (ei·miʹ), as the first-person singular present indicative, should properly be translated as the perfect indicative. Otherwise, in English, it makes no sense. Examples of this same grammatical syntax is seen in Lu.2:48; Lu.13:7; Lu.15:29;Jn.5:6;Jn.15:27;Ac.15:21;
2Co.12:19; & 1Jo.3:8.
Regarding this construction, “A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament”, by G.B.Winer, 7th ed.,Andover,1897, p.267, says: “Sometimes the Present includes also a past tense (Mdv. 108), viz. when the verb expresses a state which commenced at an earlier period but still continues,—a state in its duration; as, Joh.xv.27, ἀπʼ ἀρχῆς μετʼ ἐμοῦ ἐστέ [apʼ ar·khesʹ metʼ e·mouʹ e·steʹ], viii. 58 πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμι [prin A·bra·amʹ ge·neʹsthai e·goʹ ei·mi].”
Similarly, “A Grammar of New Testament Greek”, by J. H. Moulton, Vol. III, by Nigel Turner, Edinburgh, 1963, p.62, says: “The Present which indicates the continuance of an action during the past and up to the moment of speaking is virtually the same as Perfective, the only difference being that the action is conceived as still in progress . . . It is frequent in the N[ew] T[estament]:
Lk.2:48; 13:7; 15:29; Joh.5:6; 8:58….”
Due to this grammatical structure we have these ancient manuscripts, representing some of the oldest extant NT copies, that read:
Fourth/Fifth Century Syriac—Edition:“
before Abraham was, I have been”
A Translation of the Four Gospels From the Syriac of the
Sinaitic Palimpsest,
by Agnes Smith Lewis,
London, 1894.
Fifth Century Syriac Curetonian Gospels Edition:
“before ever Abraham came to be, I was”
The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, by F. Crawford Burkitt,
Vol. 1, Cambridge, England,
1904.
Fifth Century Syriac Peshitta—Edition:
“before Abraham existed, I was”
The Syriac New Testament
Translated Into English
From the Peshitto Version,
by James Murdock, seventh
ed., Boston and London,
1896.
Fifth Century Georgian—Edition: “before Abraham came to be, I was”
The Old Georgian Version
of the Gospel of John, by
Robert P. Blake and Maurice
Brière, published in
Patrologia Orientalis,
Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4,
Paris, 1950.
Sixth Century Ethiopic—Edition:“before Abraham was born, I was”
Novum Testamentum . . .
Æthiopice (The New
Testament . . . in Ethiopic), by Thomas Pell Platt, revised by F.
Praetorius, Leipzig, 1899.
Prior, He was a spirit. Why do you think, at John 17:5, he prayed to his Father & God, “glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”? Because he had been a spirit.
As God’s first-born Son, he’d always been obedient. But “He became obedient”….”to the point of death.” (Please look at context. That had never been required of Him before.)
Then how does Philippians continue? Vs.9 states (CSB),
“For this reason God highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name…”
Note it doesn’t say ‘the Father exalted him’, it says “God exalted him and gave him the name…”; no trinity there.
Why would Jesus, after his resurrection, need to be given anything? If he were God, he would have had it already.
Then at John 17, et. al., who was Jesus praying to?
John said, “no one has ever seen God.”
Thousands saw Jesus.
As the First-century Christians put it when praying (after Jesus’ resurrection)…. Jesus was God’s “holy servant” (Acts 4:24-30); not God…..
(NIV)
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
“ ‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed one.”
27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
So this idea that Jesus’ disciples knew he was calling himself God, has no real support in Scripture.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I hold the ubiquitous juxtaposition of "God" and "Jesus" to be one of the strongest arguments against the claim. IF their IDOL were correct, there would not be one single instance but there are many.
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