A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Wrangler]

So this idea that Jesus’ disciples knew he was calling himself God, has no real support in Scripture.

In fact, it contradicts Scripture. Here's something they don't want you to know. Every time he was called god, he denied it.

 

[Runningman]

Two that quickly come to mind are in John 8, "before Abraham was, I am", which is to say, Before Abraham did exist, I do exist".

"I am" the English translation of the Greek words ego eimi. These words appear all over the New Testament and often depend on the context. When these words are used in context of humans, such as is the case in John 9:9, where a man said "ego eimi" the translators rendered this into English as "I am the man" in the NIV, ESV, NASB, and many other versions because the context is of a man speaking.

In John 8, when Jesus was speaking, in verse 40 Jesus said he is a man. Then it follows that in John 8:58 when Jesus said "I am" that a valid translation is "I am the man." What Jesus is referring to in regards to Abraham is being the man who was before Abraham. Jesus the man didn't exist before Abraham, but prophecies regarding a human Messiah in the future were abundant before Abraham.

Abraham saw the Messiah coming, in faith, but never received what was promised him before he died. Therefore, John 8:58 is purely regarding the prophecies of a man and Jesus is nodding to those scriptures that testify of him.

Hebrews 11​

13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.​

 

[Wrangler]

"I am" the English translation of the Greek words ego eimi.

Agreed. YHWH did not say ego eimi to Moses in Ex 3:15. What he told Moses best translates as “I am eternal.”

The expression ‘I am’ is said by everyone. Not a claim of deity.

 

[marks]

Fact--Ton Theon = God, when theon is in the same paragraph = god.

You continue to repeat this same assertion as you have in the past so many times. I encourage you to actually learn what this distinction means. I will say again, it's not at all what you assert. You will need to learn this if you truly desire to know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You’re right. It is about existence. He was saying He was living before Abraham. But saying that, doesn’t make Jesus eternal; it just made him older than Abraham, over 1800 years old (to the Jews, at the time he said it). But insisting on a present tense, with the accompanying word salad, doesn’t take into account the verb’s (eimi’s) syntactical range….

Look again.

Present existance now, BEFORE Abraham's previous existence.

Anyway, if you think this is just some word salad leave it alone.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"I am" the English translation of the Greek words ego eimi. These words appear all over the New Testament and often depend on the context. When these words are used in context of humans, such as is the case in John 9:9, where a man said "ego eimi" the translators rendered this into English as "I am the man" in the NIV, ESV, NASB, and many other versions because the context is of a man speaking.

In John 8, when Jesus was speaking, in verse 40 Jesus said he is a man. Then it follows that in John 8:58 when Jesus said "I am" that a valid translation is "I am the man." What Jesus is referring to in regards to Abraham is being the man who was before Abraham. Jesus the man didn't exist before Abraham, but prophecies regarding a human Messiah in the future were abundant before Abraham.

Abraham saw the Messiah coming, in faith, but never received what was promised him before he died. Therefore, John 8:58 is purely regarding the prophecies of a man and Jesus is nodding to those scriptures that testify of him.

Hebrews 11​

13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.​

One more denial of the validity of His Words. The fact is Jesus is YHWH, He is God. It's all over the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

You keep saying this but what it really shows is that you don't understand the way Koine Greek works.

So sad. You feel it necessary to retreat to a foreign language to justify bashing this denomination.

You cannot be gracious and merely say that you disagree. You have to put yourself as judge and deem those in this denomination as being inferior to you, inferior in understanding.

I am Groot.

 

[Wrangler]

One more denial of the validity of His Words. The fact is Jesus is YHWH, He is God. It's all over the Bible.

Yet, not one verse actually says this ANYWHERE in the 66 books.

You take what is completely absent as a central message. Do you consider this belief a salvation issue? If so, what verse states that?

 

[marks]

understanding.

Groot, whatever that means, you may want to learn the history of this particular point in this discussion. This has been an oft repeated assertion, but it is purely out of ignorance. Doubling down on the assertion is to insist on ignorant discussion.

I've taken your words to heart and modified my post. But consider yourself, and your words also, as you've set yourself my judge, assuming things of me of which you do not know. So where is that graciousness? Or is that only for others to be gracious? But not you? Yeah.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Groot, whatever that means

It’s a reference to a character in the Marvel universe. The language of the species consists entirely of the 3 words, I am Groot.

Likewise, I speak English. And I reject the implication that my native tongue is insufficient to understand Scripture. And more to the point, relentless attacks on the JW denomination.

It’s very sad that you justify your ongoing assaults on superior knowledge. Who do you think you are convincing with this line of rhetoric?

Glad you modified your post, I guess. Better to modify your Spirit to love those in this denomination and stop attacking them.

 

[marks]

It’s a reference to a character in the Marvel universe. The language of the species consists entirely of the 3 words, I am Groot.

Interesting reference. The other poster is making doctrine based on the shapes of the Greek letters. That seems equally limited. But we do all choose what we will connect ourselves to, and how we will limit or expand our understanding.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And I reject the implication that my native tongue is insufficient to understand Scripture.

OK. But you do remember that these are different languages. If you have to keep the original out of the discussion to advance your view, what does that tell you? These are some simple facts. Ignore it, or not, your choice.

Much love!

 

[Runningman]

One more denial of the validity of His Words. The fact is Jesus is YHWH, He is God. It's all over the Bible.

Much love!

Not a denial, but a necessity to understand John 8:58 this way. Jesus, the Son of God, Messiah, or whichever name you prefer to call him is completely missing in action in the Old Testament, and before Abraham, saying or doing anything; that’s okay, too.

If you feel or believe otherwise, please quote the verse that shows Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament before Abraham. Thank you.

 

[marks]

Not a denial, but a necessity to understand John 8:58 this way.

There is no necessity to change what Jesus said. If we've determined, this wording is correct, this meaning is correct, then, "But I don't see this in the OT", is that really a valid reason to overturn what we would otherwise accept?

As far as "missing in action", He was called Jesus being born a man, however, God likewise had His Messenger in the OT, the Messenger of the LORD.

Whom did Abraham see? Whom did eat Abraham's food? Who spoke with Abraham? YHWH.

Genesis 18:1-14 KJV
1) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3) And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4) Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5) And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6) And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7) And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8) And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9) And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10) And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11) Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12) Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13) And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14) Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

But again, whether or not you see Jesus in any way in the OT does not change what He Himself said in the NT.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

If you have to keep the original out of the discussion to advance your view, what does that tell you?

It tells me that I speak English.

You suppose retreating to a foreign language helps your cause. It doesn’t! I’ve seen outstanding analyses by @tigger 2 go unanswered.

 

[Runningman]

There is no necessity to change what Jesus said. If we've determined, this wording is correct, this meaning is correct, then, "But I don't see this in the OT", is that really a valid reason to overturn what we would otherwise accept?

As far as "missing in action", He was called Jesus being born a man, however, God likewise had His Messenger in the OT, the Messenger of the LORD.

Whom did Abraham see? Whom did eat Abraham's food? Who spoke with Abraham? YHWH.

Genesis 18:1-14 KJV
1) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3) And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4) Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5) And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6) And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7) And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8) And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9) And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10) And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11) Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12) Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13) And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14) Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Much love!

YHWH and the three men are not the same person. Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 says God is not a man.

Where do you see Jesus saying or doing anything there? I think you may be trying to say the "angel of the LORD" is God, but not according to Scripture.

Isaiah 63
8For He said, “They are surely My people,
sons who will not be disloyal.”
So He became their Savior.
9In all their distress, He too was afflicted,
and the Angel of His Presence saved them.
In His love and compassion He redeemed them;
He lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.

 

[Keiw]

The same word, but the case is different (nominative vs. genitive).

2 cor 4:4 proves god small g is correct to the one not called Ton Theon.

 

[Keiw]

You continue to repeat this same assertion as you have in the past so many times. I encourage you to actually learn what this distinction means. I will say again, it's not at all what you assert. You will need to learn this if you truly desire to know.

Much love!

Then why in 2Cor 4:4 where the same occurs the one not called Ton Theon got--god small g.

 

[marks]

Then why in 2Cor 4:4 where the same occurs the one not called Ton Theon got--god small g.

Would you like to actually learn the grammar, and why these words have different endings?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think you may be trying to say the "angel of the LORD" is God, but not according to Scripture.

Genesis 16:7-13 KJV
7) And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8) And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12) And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
13) And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Hagar knew.

Genesis 22:15-17 KJV
15) And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Exodus 3:2-7 KJV
2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
7) And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

Numbers 22:35 KJV
35) And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.

Numbers 22:38 KJV
38) And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.

Judges 2:1 KJV
1) And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

These are the first handful of references. I don't see any ambiguity. The Messenger of YHWH is in fact YHWH.

Much love!